Oh no I have no problem calling myself a feminist the question is can a man be a feminist and do we need too call ourselves one to be pro-woman.
Practical Tools for Men to Further the Feminist Revolution
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Oh no I have no problem calling myself a feminist the question is can a man be a feminist and do we need too call ourselves one to be pro-woman.
holy shit that faq was amazing.
people. Read this if you agree with ANYTHING on the list. just read this before you comment, PLEASE.
I really want to read an interesting discussion here rather than drive-by smarky remarks.
I don't see it this way at all, it's just a hard one for people to accept because there's a lot of cultural baggage surrounding how men tend to approach personal space.
entremet
Member
You can always "donate" time to charities helping women and girls.They're plenty of charities doing great things for women in the 3rd world in terms of education and fostering entrepreneurship.
I think the list is making the point that, the position you're describing, is exactly the position that women are consistently placed in. At least, best case scenario, your husband won't have a problem if you want to keep your name. But getting your husband to consider taking your name? Forget it. "KEEP YOUR ORIGINAL OR CHANGE IT TO YOUR HUSBAND'S" is exactly the one-sided position women are placed in.
But am I really part of the problem at that point? I've chosen to work in a female-dominated industry. I can only donate so much time and money--should it by default go to social justice charities?
Moral Panic
Member
I like some of this but a lot of it is criticism/policing of another person's mutually agreed personal relationship with another human.
8. Be responsible for contraception.
10. Have progressive name politics.
11. If you have children, be an equal parent.
12. Pay attention to and challenge informal instances of gender role enforcement
16. Be responsible with money in domestic/romantic relationships.
17. Be responsible for your own health.
23. Dont treat your spouse like a nag.
27. When in a romantic relationship, be responsible for events and special dates associated with your side of the family.
8. Be responsible for contraception.
10. Have progressive name politics.
11. If you have children, be an equal parent.
12. Pay attention to and challenge informal instances of gender role enforcement
16. Be responsible with money in domestic/romantic relationships.
17. Be responsible for your own health.
23. Dont treat your spouse like a nag.
27. When in a romantic relationship, be responsible for events and special dates associated with your side of the family.
On 4 it's not like she's telling men to slink in the shadows or wait out in the rain instead of crowding under a bus stop, it's about giving reasonable space in a normal situation. It's not telling you not to go up and talk to her if that's something you're interested in doing. Just be aware of how she might feel and respect that.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
Frosh/orientation Week at York started out with an hour presentation about sex and consent and then we played with condoms. Repeat it after me GAF, "Consent is sexy!"
Alright, let me restate my first response. "Feminism" is an ideology, not a girls' club (but naturally, it will involve many women). A man can be a feminist the same as he can follow any ideology. Do you need to call yourself one to agree with the ideas? I guess I'd say 'no', but it also sounds silly and confusing to say things like "i'm for women's rights, but i'm not a feminist" (often, that's taken to mean that you actually have an axe to grind with women, for whatever reason)
entremet
Member
Well the list is how men can practically advance gender equality. So her recommendations are more active ideas on how to achieve this. It's not that you're a problem by being male. That was not her point, but her point is how to involve men actively in progressing gender equality.
Manmademan
Member
This.
Yeah just walking ahead of her in that case is no big deal.
Dragonborn
Member
I'm not a fan of it but I'd have no issue with my wife keeping her name (if I ever got married), but I'd definitely want any children to keep my name. So long as that's the case, it's fine by me. I'd definitely never change my name so I wouldn't blame her if she didn't. Makes sense.
I am going to quote this because it seriously does need to be read.
For the record I do personally identify as a womanist being a man but it was just interesting to see that my girlfriend was apprehensive to that. I don't think she feels that way because she thinks feminism is some sort of girls only club but probably because of male privilege. For example I want to support woman without talking over them since society gives me the bigger mouth piece.
The Awesomest
Member
What is emotional work
RockTurtle
Member
i know. i just personally found it more of a western/eastern problem than anything. in my country you have both your father and mother's names already.
not that it doesn't stop westerners from doing so, but official forms are set into a first, middle, last name format. we have first, middle, father's last name, mother's last name.
i'm going to assume things like women taking things more into account like making sure everyone is happy, or being more involved in an activity or managing the level of emotional response to things in the house (you should keep track of birthdays, so and so's cousin died we have to go give them support, call your mother once in a while) etc etc.
Singing to crippled children.
kame-sennin
Member
Here's what drives me nuts about the word "nagging:" It's almost always used in reference to women and often, "nagging" simply means "a woman asked you to do something." Its used in a way that shames women out of asking for help (usually involving housework). Also, if a woman has to ask for something multiple times, it means she's being consistently ignored, which is a super bummer.
Be nurturing and comforting.
There isn't. Which was actually my original point echoing one gentleman's post about treating everyone equally. Of course we should be mindful of hardships of any group of people that get the short end of the stick socially, but being treated how you treat others is a great standard. I would and do some things on the list for the women in my life and I hope most men do, but again a lot of the things on the list don't strike me as specifically feminist, but more of a 'dont be a huge cunt' in general list.
PdotMichael
Banned
No, it's not.
That would imply that women are little children who need help whatever they do.
Vermillion
Banned
5 amuses me. Stand nearby when she seems uncomfortable? Would that not make her more uncomfortable?
I understand not wanting to change your name, completely. I think the point is just to consider, that you have options women mostly don't: Because you're a man, it's likely (or at least possible) that your spouse will take your name.
I really wish this was the standard practice in the U.S. It sounds awesome.
How does it do that?
It never is.
It's a shame people think only women can nag. All of the biggest nags in my life have been men. Nagging does bring up the idea that someone is repeating the same thing over and over, but usually it's not that person being ignored, it's about their wishes being deprioritized, which is in itself another issue. People in relationships just need to talk more and negotiate more in general.
Moral Panic
Member
The problem I have that is not really a discourse. It's someone telling me what I should do based on a preconceived notion of what the correct way things should be is. Even when the basis of that notion is shared, the implementation is not which is why there is no one guide that leads to equality. I think some of the ones as regards strangers are good, but she has no moral authority to dictate how 2 people in a relationship decide how they are going to work things out.
PdotMichael
Banned
The metaphor is pretty obvious in this regard.
I disagree with some of her points, but I think she's just trying to say accommodate women the same way you would accommodate the elderly. The same way you would give up your seat on a bus for a senior citizen, do certain things to make women feel more comfortable. However if this is taken to far, it could become sexist the same way, many people see "chivalry" as being sexist.
I think they would generally be able to tell 1000x better than a guy would, being on the receiving end of it all day long. It's a lack of perspective. I find the above post arrogant.
I generally believe in that list, with some minor quibbles.
Dragonborn
Member
Yup, I understand that completely. Which is why I wouldn't demand she change her name (just as I never would) even if I'd prefer it. So long as the children carry my name, I'd be fine with it.
I do get that some guys will want her to take their name and won't say yes to her keeping her's. That's definitely not cool
I'm hispanic, so I do carry my mothers name as well (though not here in the US) but only the main last name gets passed onto children. As in I'm Dragonborn X Y, my child would be Dragonborn X Z, though that doesn't apply in the US.
Photolysis
Banned
Ugh, this list is stupid and I had to skim over it.
Does that mean she'll pay all the bills and the mortgage 50-50? Will she cut the lawn 50% of the time? I'd be prepared to bet a lot of men do a lot of housework that they get no credit for. My dad has done almost all the physical maintenance tasks on his house, yet if you talked to my mom she'd say he doesn't do any work.
I'll consume what I want. If your product is shit, too bad.
So blindly accept when a woman says that? I'll pass.
In essence: men should pay. Men should have no say instead of discussing options with their partner to try and find a mutually beneficial solution. Bullshit.
Fuck off with that shit. If you are concerned about you getting a disease then you get vaccinated, instead of demanding everyone else does it to suit you.
I think there should be public vaccination programs if the safety has been proven for herd immunity, but saying "Women are susceptible but it's not their responsibility" is bullshit. The level of entitlement in demanding all men get vaccinated because she doesn't want to bear the risk/responsibility/costs of taking charge of her health and getting vaccinated herself is astounding.
This person is aware that paternity leave is not equal with maternity leave in many countries, and the earning discrepancy between partners can make this a foolish financial decision, right?
After all, she herself claims men make significantly more and should be financially responsible...
Does that mean she'll pay all the bills and the mortgage 50-50? Will she cut the lawn 50% of the time? I'd be prepared to bet a lot of men do a lot of housework that they get no credit for. My dad has done almost all the physical maintenance tasks on his house, yet if you talked to my mom she'd say he doesn't do any work.
I'll consume what I want. If your product is shit, too bad.
So blindly accept when a woman says that? I'll pass.
In essence: men should pay. Men should have no say instead of discussing options with their partner to try and find a mutually beneficial solution. Bullshit.
Fuck off with that shit. If you are concerned about you getting a disease then you get vaccinated, instead of demanding everyone else does it to suit you.
I think there should be public vaccination programs if the safety has been proven for herd immunity, but saying "Women are susceptible but it's not their responsibility" is bullshit. The level of entitlement in demanding all men get vaccinated because she doesn't want to bear the risk/responsibility/costs of taking charge of her health and getting vaccinated herself is astounding.
This person is aware that paternity leave is not equal with maternity leave in many countries, and the earning discrepancy between partners can make this a foolish financial decision, right?
After all, she herself claims men make significantly more and should be financially responsible...
gutter_trash
Banned
about contraception, if it is condoms then I pay for them 100%
but if it's the pill then she pays for them 100%, it's between her and her pharmacist.
I will gladly buy expensive lingerie for her to compensate the costs of the pill
but if it's the pill then she pays for them 100%, it's between her and her pharmacist.
I will gladly buy expensive lingerie for her to compensate the costs of the pill
I agree with a lot of her points, but some stick out to me as strange. Namely:
"If a woman tells you something is sexist, believe her". That just seems terribly worded. You shouldn't be told to just buy what people are saying without thinking. If she is trying to get the point across that men need to do a better job thinking about circumstances outside of their own shoes, then sure. But telling men to just "believe her" isn't really sound advice in and of itself.
"Keep distance from women". That isn't exactly wrong, but I felt some of her examples were odd. I try to give all people a decent amount of space. But I think men can be perfectly capable of sharing a seat next to a woman or walking by them on the street in a fashion that does not alarm a woman that they do not know.
"Men should pay for all of contraceptives." That just seems absurd to me. I feel that both people should be paying and they should decide what works best for their situation. Saying "women take on the risk" is assuming that men are going to be dead-beat dads (which I understand does happen a lot). But it kind of justifies it. Like, it's saying "Well I paid for the contraceptives, so if you still get pregnant I did my part. Now you gotta do yours. Bye."
"If a woman tells you something is sexist, believe her". That just seems terribly worded. You shouldn't be told to just buy what people are saying without thinking. If she is trying to get the point across that men need to do a better job thinking about circumstances outside of their own shoes, then sure. But telling men to just "believe her" isn't really sound advice in and of itself.
"Keep distance from women". That isn't exactly wrong, but I felt some of her examples were odd. I try to give all people a decent amount of space. But I think men can be perfectly capable of sharing a seat next to a woman or walking by them on the street in a fashion that does not alarm a woman that they do not know.
"Men should pay for all of contraceptives." That just seems absurd to me. I feel that both people should be paying and they should decide what works best for their situation. Saying "women take on the risk" is assuming that men are going to be dead-beat dads (which I understand does happen a lot). But it kind of justifies it. Like, it's saying "Well I paid for the contraceptives, so if you still get pregnant I did my part. Now you gotta do yours. Bye."
Oh come on, do you really think that by being passive while others do wrong you are blameless?
I agree that an obsessive devotion to the agenda is excessive but understanding that an active stance is worthwhile, as well as consideration of the perspectives of others?
I think were on the same page it's just you're hesitant to use the feminist label in respect to some of these. In that case, does really matter to you if people think of these as furthering the feminist cause or just "not being a dick" people since we already agree that feminism at its core, generally means "let us not be a dick to you because of your gender"?
Douche McBaggins The 3rd
Junior Member
Fuck this list. I treat women with the same respect as any other man. Hell any other person. I'm not going to go out of my way to coddle someone because of their gender. On top of this, some of this stuff is not anyone's place to judge on circumstance on top of that. I treat my male and female friends the same.
entremet
Member
Tumblr is just a blogging platform. The author just happens to be an academic who uses Tumblr.
I have a friend going through this now. She really wanted to keep her own name, not just because she's attached to it, but also for professional reasons, but her husband and his family wouldn't stand for it. She waited until the last possible moment to change it (before it would require a full legal suit to change) and really tried to convince him out of it, but finally she caved. I think she's legitimately sad over it.
Most of the women I know (including myself) kept their own names, but we all have professional licenses that make it easier to do so, too. It's awesome though, that this is now an option for (some) women (with growing acceptance).- Status