Practical Tools for Men to Further the Feminist Revolution
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Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
I felt it was a bit smarmy and very much counterproducent. Feminism is at its core a matter of education, and you cannot address people who may be reluctant to embrace your pitch from the get go with a tone like she uses there. You'll just push them the other way around.
The list itself is fairly germane and full of valid recommendations, but there are a few points in which I feel it goes off the rails, such as #6, which is just plain foolish and self-serving (and I'm being as polite as I can here). There are also a couple bad generalizations that could easily fire back into the man's face.
It's a good list overall, but the tone makes me balk a little.
I'd like to recommend the original article at Lesath's post, which is much more frank and despite what Clark may said over her Tumblr, it's no less approachable just because it's more academic. If any, it's just plain better.
Drinky Crow
Banned
because, clown, you're gonna find that you have more and more bosses, clients, and customers who are women with money and power and you need to ask yourself: do i wish to learn from them as i would any man, or am i hung up on some crippling gender nonsense from a culture in decline?
i mean, it's your career. if you wanna cloister up with some good ol' boys because it keeps you from doubting your corporate dick, BE MY GUEST. more meat for the butcher, as it were.
Absolutely, but there is no grouping at all here. Let's say there are only two people in this world, a woman and a man. Both are going to have health insurance. In world A, the guy is paying $200 a month and the woman $300 a month. In world B, both are paying $250 a month.
How is the variance of payouts reduced for the insurance company in any of those worlds? Well, it's not - in either case, there are 2 insured people that may or may not fall sick. How their rates are being split up doesn't affect the risk of the insurance company having to pay out some money, it simply distributes the costs for that.
The variance argument would be valid if
1. You assume by not sharing costs evenly, some (MANY, in fact, see point 2) people will chose not to have any insurance at all, hence reducing the total amount of customers and (potentially) increasing relative variance, if
2. Your client base is very small anyway, as covariance gains are concave to the number of customers.. I.e. if you have 10,000,000 customers, another 100 or so aren't going to give you much of a diversification benefit anymore.. and if
3. those customers are sufficiently uncorrelated. (As in, your risk reduction by covariance isn't really going really going to kick in if all your customers are living right in the ebola hotspot in africa. If they're a diverse group of people, then yes, definitely.)
Also very true, but similarly to the argument above, assuming that the total number of insurance holders is similar, the risk is the same and it simply comes down to a question of who's paying what share of the costs, but not much the total expected expenditures for the insurance company are going to be.
That low-hanging fruit...
The only issues that jumped out to me were 5 and 6. 5, because that requires a pretty special set of social skills to pull that off without unnecessarily escalating the situation or being incredibly patronizing to a woman. 6 is problematic for pretty obvious reasons...
Drinky Crow
Banned
and no, feminists DON'T feel superior. you've just had a bit of the veil of your cultural self-confidence ripped away and your inferiority complex is showing. don't blame women for introducing cultural doubt in your life; blame your own fucking weakness for not being able to deal.
Drinky Crow
Banned
just fyi, brochacho: she's not the ONLY or SOLE voice of feminism. go find one you like; don't sit on your ass waiting to be pandered to. (that's the privilege bit: the silly expectations.)
Dragonborn
Member
Woah there, I'm not saying I wouldn't work with or network with women. You bet I would if it meant advancing in the ladder (just as I would with anyone else). It's just currently that's not the case for me (that may well change in the future). I was just asking about what you said in regards to needing a female mentor.
riskVSreward
Member
I'm a gender egalitarian, I treat all people equal regardless of sex or gender. This new troupe of social media feminists are at times disgusting. Have any of you seen how Anita Sarkeesian misrepresents video games to propagate her agenda? http://youtu.be/ixhr8mjy1fs?list=UUmb8hO2ilV9vRa8cilis88A (Thunderf00t has a few more great videos on the topic)
A lot of these feminists actually want women to have MORE rights than men, which is belied in their actions/beliefs although they don't openly admit it. That isn't equality.
A lot of these feminists actually want women to have MORE rights than men, which is belied in their actions/beliefs although they don't openly admit it. That isn't equality.
We're not disagreeing, but we should agree that when a man says 'i will treat everyone equally' its a positive statement. What some people are taking issue with is basically semantics. If the article was written to invoke, compassion, consideration towards women and their experience on a daily basis it would be much better received. Instead there are some rather obtuse points that could be polarizing.
MemoryHumanity
Member
I identify as a feminist, but some of these points are questionable. You think the solution is to segregate each other? "Woman on the train?! DON'T YOU DARE INTERACT WITH HER."
What.
What.
Drinky Crow
Banned
also, nerds, the list is SUGGESTIONS which you may INTERPRET in the manner of your choosing. this is not AD&D; violating one of them does not mean you die and hafta shamefully re-roll at level 1.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Last paragraph and all that.
PS: Not that I drive my attitudes towards people by bullet points on the internets.
But doesn't every study show us that the vast majority of sexual assault is done by friends and family?
This whole "men, women are afraid of you" message seems completely counterproductive and just feeds into the myth that rape=violent attack by a man in a dark alley.
Sorry for going off-topic but you made like 5 posts while showing up as "banned". Am I missing something?
Devolution
Member
You can still be harassed by someone even if they don't physically violate you.
Drinky Crow
Banned
context, motherfucker, can you read it?
--
you see a hot girl on the train. your dick is getting juiced.
do you: A) lean over her and ask how her day is going; or B) leave her along like you would any dude and let her get on with her own fucking business
--
you see a hot girl at the bar lookin' around for some studmeat. your dick is getting juiced.
do you: A) lean over her and ask how her day is going; or B) leave her along like you would any dude and let her get on with her own fucking business
--
IN ONE OF THESE SITUATIONS A) IS A PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE ANSWER
Angelus Errare
Banned
I'm confused on how you're still posting.
Drinky Crow
Banned
yes?
THE GHOST OF SUSAN B. ANTHONY HAS POSSESSED MY PROSTATE AND ENABLED ME TO HACK GAF'S SQL SERVICE
chaobreaker
Member
Serious lack of empathy in some of you posters.
mullet2000
Member
The content of the list matters. We can't reduce it to its most basic "true message" and give it a gold star for trying to do something good. Good messages can have bad content. As I and many people have pointed out, there's a worrying tone throughout the entire list about men, male sexuality, etc. Furthermore a lot of people disagree with the "make up for it and then some" style of reaching equality that the author is presenting.
I don't think reducing something to "the true message" helps. Because at that point aren't we saying that virtually anything that is written from a feminist perspective is automatically good because the "gist of it" or the "true message" is a good one?
There's a lot more to any piece of writing than the base message it's trying to present.
Christberg
Member
This. Sexually assault of any kind is vastly more likely to be committed by someone you know.
riskVSreward
Member
DON'T ENGAGE WOMEN WHO AREN'T LOOKING FOR SEX!
Dragonborn
Member
So is your schitick coming in and insulting other posters, calling them names? How is that in any way contributing to the discussion? :/
Angelus Errare
Banned
Indeed. But then again, this thread and other female based threads give good insight into why so many people on GAF have trouble with women. I go through these threads, and I can't begin to feel bad for the lonely dudes on GAF.
Drinky Crow
Banned
riskVSreward
Member
Nice strawman there. I feel bad for you.
Devolution
Member
So?
Oh man that lower figure of 33% means I should just be less paranoid on the street alone.
I don't see how this argument is supposed to work.
If black strangers aren't significantly more dangerous than white strangers, it's unreasonable to treat the cases differently. Right? So what I did was I went and tried to sort out what the probability was that you'd be victimized by a black stranger and by a white stranger, using the number of black people and white people in the total population to scale reported homicide rates.
If most sexual assaults are done by people known to the victim, what follows? This isn't like the race example where all we're varying is an in-itself irrelevant fact (the race of the stranger). Here we're varying facts that matter enormously for behavior - we socialize a lot more with people we know (obviously), for example. It's clearly silly to talk like this shows how we're bigoted against strangers, or whatever, but I don't see where else this could be going. It doesn't seem to have any bearing on whether there's more to fear from strange men than strange women or whether the danger from strange men rises to a level where it's reasonable for a woman to be anxious.
Most white people aren't expecting to be murdered in the street or on the subway though. They're expecting to be mugged or harassed.
Why is it that "the media" or the culture at large is so frequently to blame for making white people afraid of African Americans, but media and cultural influences don't seem to often seem to be a part of the discussion when women are suspicious and distrustful of men? Why is one group's fears discounted as racist/irrational and while the other group's fears are affirmed as correct and unassailable?
mullet2000
Member
Ugh. I think Anita Sarkeesian is a poor writer, and I think her videos are overall quite grade school/poor, but Thunderf00t does not make good videos at all. His hate for feminism and bias against it is abundantly clear in his arguments and his overall tone.
MemoryHumanity
Member
It sounds like you're the one with the problem here. My dick doesn't 'get juiced' everytime I see an attractive woman on public transport. However, if I were to sit next to someone on the train - whether male or female - I would see no harm in striking up a conversation.
You're essentially implying that you/all men only initiate in conversation with women in order to get laid, which is pretty ridiculous.
Drinky Crow
Banned
it was a GIRL who gave me these powers. i treated her like an equal: we talked about rpgs and motorcycles and i did not patronize her.
"This new troupe of social media feminists are at times disgusting. "
This is literally what you said.
Drinky Crow
Banned
where did i say EVERY TIME? just once is enough, my little friend.
I agree with alot of this list, but some of it seems more like babying rather than treating women with respect.
specifically
Now, she may very well be right(and probably is), but you're not really helping someone by being a yes man. If you think something is wrong with their assessment, then it's probably better to bring it up and have a discussion where both sides can learn something rather than pretending that you believe every word that comes out of their mouth. Otherwise, if you dont do that then you arent following the other rule in the list that says:
specifically
Now, she may very well be right(and probably is), but you're not really helping someone by being a yes man. If you think something is wrong with their assessment, then it's probably better to bring it up and have a discussion where both sides can learn something rather than pretending that you believe every word that comes out of their mouth. Otherwise, if you dont do that then you arent following the other rule in the list that says:
Just because you disagree with her views doesn't mean her work is useless. Dude.
RockTurtle
Member
empathy for men who are labeled potential rapists?
empathy for men who go out of their way to treat people right but are told it's not enough?
or empathy as a blanket statement when you don't want to verbally present your case.
empathy is quickly joining the "check your privilege" quick response to shut down opposing or challenging ideas in my mind.
Well that is the whole point of the article. How men can further feminism. I don't see how that does. It's basically a "Well I have to deal with this crap due to the biological nature of being a woman, so therefore you should be obligated to pay for all contraceptives. It's kind of silly and immature. People in relationships should be able to determine what is best for them as far as paying for contraceptives. It's basically assigning roles. The man's role is to pay for contraceptives, and the woman's role is to deal with the consequences of said contraceptives or failures of said contraceptives. I think that is bad.
Devolution
Member
It's pretty insulting to say to women who get harassed, groped what have you on the street "yeah but you're more likely to be raped by a friend so what are you so nervous about."
Talk about just a pure lack of empathy and critical thinking.
Talk about just a pure lack of empathy and critical thinking.
riskVSreward
Member
"Women's rights campaigners are evil liars"
That's literally what I DIDN'T say. Your reading comprehension needs work.
Good Job Bob
Member
Is maybe getting to know the cute girl on the bus bad? What do these types of feminists recommend in terms of dating? Waiting for the girl to take the initiative? That's just unrealistic in today's culture. Internet dating? Too superficial for my tastes, people won't give people the time of day whom they might otherwise be interested in if they had a face-to-face conversation.
Drinky Crow
Banned
empathy for men who are labeled potential rapists?
empathy for men who go out of their way to treat people right but are told it's not enough?
or empathy as a blanket statement when you don't want to verbally present your case.
empathy is quickly joining the "check your privilege" quick response to shut down opposing or challenging ideas in my mind.
not a binary proposition here, sperglord. empathy tends to be an ADDITIVE property when done right, not an exclusivistic one
Okay... so what are the relevant statistics here? I mean, I think I was pretty clear that I was just using easy-to-find numbers for the sake of a quick calculation. Homicide and rape statistics are easy numbers to find. Surely you don't think that the racial skew of mugging statistics is going to be anywhere near the gender skew of sexual harassment statistics, right?
PhoenixDark
Banned
What if she make makes more money than her boyfriend, and it's a "financial burden" for him to purchase contraception. Is he still expected to purchase it at 100%?
What about the father's financial burden for an unwanted pregnancy? Does that count in the equation or is the physical burden of the woman/mother the only consideration?
I buy my own condoms, my ladyfriend buys her own contraception. If she asked me to buy it for her I'd have no problem, however I'm glad I'm with someone who has some financial security and can buy stuff that she needs without a man having to provide for her.
Drinky Crow
Banned
maybe just recognize the HISTORY and EXPERIENCE of women in these situations and save your erection for a CONTEXT where women not only expect but ENCOURAGE your attention? if the girl on the bus is leering at you, then THAT IS A CHANGE IN CONTEXT.
it's not the job of women to spell out the explicit RIGHT TIMES AND PLACES when you can mack on 'em. you pay attention; you figure it out; and when you fuck up, man up and own the consequences.
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