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Preserving tapes and floppies and other dying mediums

Krejlooc

Banned
Retro gaming has been enjoying recent popularity as modern gamers dig into the past to unearth forgotten platforms that hold hidden gems worth uncovering. One segment of gaming history worth exploring is Europe's micro-computer age, a period from around 1983 until about 1994 that was dominated by Atari, Commodore, Sinclair, and the Amstrad CPC. Elsewhere, in Japan, machines like the PC-88 and Sharp X68k enjoyed niche success and are home to hundreds of worthy titles. And abroad, the age of the 486 PC is filled with classics from id and apogee and epic that are worth exploring.

One common fault of all these types of machines is that the storage medium they shipped games on are dying en-mass today. Floppy disks - both 5 1/4" and 3 1/2" disks - and magnetic tapes are becoming unreliable and finding backup (read: new) media to make a copy with is becoming increasingly difficult. Today, realistically, you should not be playing your original floppy drive and tape games because any time you use these mediums might be the last.

Obviously, emulation has made the problem of completely preserving these games not that big of a deal. The vast majority of these platform's worthy titles have been archived and can be freely played on a modern PC by loading images of these media like you would a cartridge ROM. For most people, that's enough, but for retro collectors like myself, who want to play these games on real, original hardware, this poses a problem.

Luckily, enthusiasts have been working for years to facilitate format shifting for these old machines from old, disposable floppies and tapes to modern, reliable media. This topic is intended for collectors and historians to discuss the ways they're preserving and format shifting their dying collections so that they can continue to run on modern hardware. I've begun mass format shifting a huge portion of my collection for a few machines I have, each in different ways:


u1RFmRt.jpg

486DX DOS PC

Of all the machines whose library I'm trying to preserve, format shifting a retro DOS PC is by far the easiest. Because of the nature of the way DOS games worked (there weren't very many PC Booter games that would boot straight from disk, especially as time went on) format shifting most old DOS games is as easy as copying the contents from a floppy disk onto a modern harddrive or flash drive. DOS can treat any folder as though it was a floppy itself. Hence, to format shift your game, simply create a folder on your harddrive, copy everything from your A Drive into that folder, then navigate to said folder and run the executable.

However, anybody who remembers DOS gaming remembers the headache of manually configuring your system settings per game, and I was looking for a more attractive format shifting method. Hence, I use compact flash cards as my storage solution of choice. Compact Flash is a relatively antiquated storage medium today:

Ll5axat.jpg


These things were popular as camera memory cards in the early 2000's but are still produced in steady supply today, and aren't a rarity at all. The best thing about compact flash is that they operate using a custom IDE interface just like a normal harddrive and it's trivial to pick up an adapter that'll let your PC see the thing as a harddrive, like so:

dCR8g0j.gif


These conversion kits are available in both PC and Amiga formats. On one end is a place for you to insert your compact flash card, and on the other end is usually a 2.5" or 3.5" IDE interface and a floppy drive power supply terminal. I bought a bay drive for my PC to mount this on the front like a floppy drive:

rYMCIcv.jpg


Obviously they also offer these with PCI bay drive brackets as well. These let you keep a CF card slot on your PC to hot swap. I bought about 50 of these 4 gb CF Cards in bulk and formatted them all over a few weekends, installing MS DOS on each one individually. Then, I'd go in one by one and install a single game on each compact flash card. Example: Doom is installed on one card, Jazz Jackrabbit is installed on another, Terminal Velocity on a third, etc. Because each card is technically it's own self contained harddrive with their own separate DOS installation, I can change the system configuration files on each CF card to match the installed game. By editing the Autoexec.bat file in DOS, I can also set these games to boot up automatically when the machine turns on. Typically, you'd want to avoid setting autoexec.bat to boot a game on loadup because that would mean the same game would be loaded every time you turned on the PC, but as each card is it's own DOS install, that turns these cards into basically self booting cartridges for the machine.

Print out some labels for these babies that matches the art work on the floppies they replace and you have a nice set of swappable games. Just turn off the machine, pull out your current CF card, plug in your new game, and turn the machine back on and it'll boot into the desired game. Because the floppies I'm copying from are insignificantly tiny in comparison to the 4 gb of space, I have lots of left over space for things like scans of the manual and even full .img rips of the floppy for each archival and restore if I ever need. Best of all, I can play these dos games on real, mid-90's hardware without worrying that the floppy will die or that the HDD is about to give out.

N9e5Yc0.jpg

Commodore 64

The versatile C64 had games come on a variety of mediums. When you first buy the machine, it usually came bare with only a long cartridge port on the back. These carts look an awful lot like Atari 8-bit or similar carts of the time, the sort of ubiqutious small black rectangular prisms that every system seemed to use. By nature of being a cart, these aren't really in much danger of disappearing (although bitrot can occur). Carts, however, are the extreme minority of the C64's library, as they were expensive to produce and ship.

ykPMsKD.jpg


Much more popular early on in the C64's life was the 5.25" Floppy disk. The floppy disk drive for the C64 is absolutely massive. The thing is bigger than the main unit itself (and when you look at the above picture, remember that the C64 itself is about as big as 1 and 1/2 front loading NES put together) and it's extremely heavy, much more so than the system. These things are notoriously unreliable today, as the heads that read the disc are going out. They also contain a large number of gears and motors inside to operate the disc drive, any of which is prone to failing. Needless to the say, the floppy drive itself is finicky and that's not even factoring in the large number of 5.25" floppies themselves that are failing. Luckily, there are better solutions out there.

G74XvEm.jpg


The SDrive 1564 is a cool little SD card adapter based off of the popular SD2IEC chipset that many SD Card manufacturers for the C64 uses. I appreciate that it comes in a nice little case that strives to look similar to the actual C64 floppy drive, albeit much tinier. This thing lets you read SD Cards into your C64 as though they were floppy disks. This particular one takes D64 files on the root of the card and reads them in sequentially according to file name. The two buttons on the front of the unit will tell it to unmount a floppy image and mount the next one.

So if I have 3 files on my SD Card, "Floppy1.d64," "Floppy2.d64," and "Floppy3.d64" then, when I power on the C64, "Floppy1.d64" will load onto the SD Card reader. When I tell t he C64 to read the floppy drive, it'll read floppy1.d64 off of the SD card reader. As anybody who played these old games remember, you frequently had to switch discs at various prompts in-game. Pressing the button does that. So, when the game instructs me to inset disc 2, I just press the button on the reader and it unmounts "Floppy1.d64" and mounts "Floppy2.d64." If I accidentally press the button too many times, it'll loop at the end, so after Floppy3.d64, it'll reload Floppy1.d64. You just kind of have to keep track in your head as to which floppy you're on (although some models have a screen to tell you which file is loaded).

These SD2IEC readers have a problem with some cracked game intros, which used custom loaders. It really is meant for only reading normal game rips. Luckily, there is a superior product, called the 1541 Ultimate II, which is a full floppy drive emulator that includes an on-screen UI that'll let you fully emulate a floppy drive. That reader costs about $200 but has no problem with any rip of any game. For the average person who is just backing up their floppies, an SDrive will do the trick. Luckily, the SDrive includes a passthrough port so you can daisy chain a normal floppy drive to the machine and rip your games directly from there.

9ljJ4fq.jpg


While a good number of C64 games were released on floppies, the vast majority of C64 titles were released on tapes. Tapes were super cheap to produce and ship and they came in nice, small plastic cases. They took forever to load but their technology was super easy to understand. Tapes stored the information as magnetic analog signals on the magnetic strip inside the tape. Functionally, they are absolutely no different from any audio casette tape you may (or may not, depending on your age) have used back in the day. That means, for all intent and purposes, C64 games on tape are stored as audio. The C64 tape drive had a DAC that would convert the analog audio signal coming out of the tape into 1's and 0's for the C64 to use.

This is awesome for a couple of reasons. Primarily, this means dumping any tape game is trivial - just grab a casette player and run a line from it's out to your PC's line in and save the sounds it plays using sound recorder as a wave file, and you've backed up the game entirely. It's a snap to load an audio game onto your C64:

pLuqu8X.jpg


This is a C64 DAC tape drive emulator. Like the SDrive, I appreciate the way the manufacturers of this hardware went out of their way to make it look like the peripheral it is emulating (the commodore tape drive in this instance). This baby has a line-in 2.5 mm phono jack that listens for audio. When it comes in, it'll convert the analog audio signal into a digital signal just like the tape deck for the C64 would. Naturally you could just run a line from your PC to your C64 and hit play on WMP or whatever to play the audio signal for the C64, but I actually went out and bought a super cheap, tiny MP3/WAV player for this purpose:

G0oMcL7.jpg


This is a super cheap player that has a small micro-sd cart port in the front that'll load MP3 or WAV files in the root of the SD card. It also has a small speaker on the back that'll play through even if you use line out. MP3 is a lossy format so I store my tape archives as WAV files. I bought, in bulk, a large quantity of 256 mb Micro SD cards, one for each tape I own, and converted my entire tape collection to individual SD cards as wav files. One problem the tape drive emulator has that the real tape drive does not is that it can't send signals to stop the player like the real tape drive would. Often, when loading games, the C64 would pause when one side of the tape finished. This would send a signal for the tape deck to stop playing and a prompt on screen would come up telling you to switch the sides of the tape and hit enter to continue loading the next side. Because the emulator can't send the signal to stop, the speaker on the back becomes important. I took a small beeping tone wave form and placed it between each rip of the tape on the root of the SD cards so that the player will emit a beep when I'm supposed to respond to the C64 loading on screen. Because C64 games can sometimes take a half hour to load, the tone is important for letting me known when I need to respond so I don't have to sit and watch the screen.

For better or worse, these two methods of backing up C64 games lets you experience exactly what using these games were like, including the extremely long load times. But they're at least preserved forever.

laJRJXl.jpg

Amiga 500/1200/CD32

The Amiga came in a variety of shapes and sizes, but for the purposes of this topic, I'll keep the discussion to the two models of Amiga I use regularly - the CD32, which was basically an Amiga 1200 in a console-shaped box with a CD drive, and the normal Amiga 1200. For those who have never used an Amiga before, they typically didn't have harddrives installed and worked primarily off of the floppy drive port. The Amiga will automatically boot up whatever is in the floppy drive when you turn the machine on, without having to input any commands. This is neat for games because you can treat game floppies the same way you treat games on any other machine, just insert them and turn the machine on.

The great news is that the Amigas have a ton of awesome utilities and options available for people looking to format shift their games. First of all, most Amigas will support and internal hard drive, even if a harddrive isn't standard. On both my CD32 and A1200 I have an Amibay Compact Flash -> IDE kit installed for 2 4 gb Compact Flash cards inside working as the harddrives with Workbench 3.1 installed:

eKsBda4.jpg


Getting a CF kit installed on a CD32 is a bit tricky, as the CD32 strips out almost all of the normal Amiga 1200 connections. The CD32, for example, is missing both a floppy drive and a floppy drive connection, along with the IDE port. Luckily, the CD32's back edge connector has these pins still present, even if they're unused on a stock CD32. Similarly lucky is that 2 expansion devices, the SX-1 and the SX-32, exist that will add back the normal A1200 functionality to a CD32. I have an SX-1 installed on my CD32:

u8G3J3g.png


That's an SX-1 with the top off, which is how you access the IDE input on the thing. With the SX-1 open, I can pop in the CF->IDE kit and install a CF harddrive. the process is much more straight forward on a normal Amiga 1200 (being that they were built with harddrives in mind to begin with). After installing Workbench on these systems, I then purchased WHDLoad, a commercial (sold online) program for Amigas that lets them run floppy games from a harddrive. Very few floppy games allowed themselves to be installed on a harddrive like normal, but WHDLoad will let you rip your floppy game into a WHD image that can be mounted and loaded through a virtual floppy drive on these machines. WHDLoad uses a bit more ram than normal, so 2mb (4mb recommended) ram expansions are necessary for both machines.

WHDLoad is nice, but we want our machines to function as originally as possible. Having to boot into Workbench and click on some icons isn't how these games were originally loaded, they were supposed to be self-booting floppy disks. There are, thankfully, a few options one can use to restore this feature to these machines.

IndOBxL.jpg


A stock CD32 will treat it's CD Drive just like a floppy drive. Upon boot up, even if a floppy drive is present via the SX-1 or SX-32, even if the harddrive is present, the first thing the unit will try is to spin the disc and read the CD Rom as though it was a floppy. Though the CD32 was billed as a console, peaking under the hood at how it all works reveals that it's just a normal amiga with a slightly unique boot up ROM. The CDs themselves are treated just like huge floppies with a bootsector containing a file called CDTV.TM. CDTV.TM is a file that is required to make a CD game self booting and identify as a floppy. The CD32 looks for CDTV.TM in the bootsector, and if present, it'll then begin looking at the CD like it's a floppy, launching whatever script is in the /S folder on the CD like a normal floppy.

With this in mind, we can create self-booting CD games that behave like a floppy. To do this, we need a few tools:

* A normal, modern PC running WinUAE and the kickstart roms, which can be legally purchased here: http://www.amigaforever.com/
* A CD Burner on said PC
* CDTV Developer's kit (Not readily available for purchase, but if interested shoot me a PM and I can direct you to someone who owns the rights to said kit)
* MakeCD for Amiga (the unregistered demo floating around online is fine)
* WHDLoad32: (registered version preferred) http://www.whdload.de/docs/en/cd32.html


To build a self-booting CD, first configure WinUAE to boot up into Workbench, setting up the emulator to use a folder on your PC as thought it was a harddrive (this is where our disc image is going to output to). You'll also probably want to get an ADF image of the game you're going to format shift.

On the PC side of things, configure a folder with all the contents of your self-booting CD. This means the folder that'll contain what will become your CD should have an /s folder with an appropriate WHDLoad32 script inside, along with the WHD files from your ADF. If you're unfamiliar with what a self booting game's contents should look like, what I did to learn was download a self-booting title from RGCD:

Like this Turrican collection (which I feel confident linking to because Factor 5 themselves have the games available to freely download on their website)

Just follow the example from his iso on how to build your folder. You can even use his own scripts to load your WHDLoad32 files, which I did. I dunno if RGCD minds if you use his scripts as a template, but I asked him about this one time and he didn't seem to get upset, so YMMV.

WhQcGWk.jpg


Anywho, after you have a folder with the appropriate content on your PC, open up MakeCD and feed it the folder as a source. Because you have that mounted folder inside the folder mounted as a harddrive, Workbench will see it as an amiga folder and treat it as such.When you add the folder as a source, you'll see a button that says "Boot Options." Click this and select "Add CDTV settings to image" which will request a trademark file. Browse to your CDTV.TM file from your developers tools and click save.

CU5pALk.jpg


Click Create ISO and set your ISO Prefs to match the screen above. Click "OK" then "make image file" and let MakeCD run. It'll spit out an iso into the folder you have mounted. Close WinUAE and go to windows and burn that ISO like any normal ISO. That CD you burn will now be a selfbooting WHDLoad CD that can run the floppy game you fed it as though it was a floppy.

This isn't that complex once you get the process down - the most difficult part is configuring WHDLoad correctly in your /s script. Beyond that, it's a good way to transfer your floppies to CD. The downside, of course, is that CD32 CD-Rom drives are dying and a normal A1200 doesn't have a CD Rom Drive to begin with.

KQh0mcz.jpg


Thankfully, a floppy drive emulator exists for the A1200 and A500. These can be installed directly into the machine, or mounted into an external drive for use on the CD32. They look similar in appearance to a 2.5" floppy drive bay, but accept a USB drive instead. Like the SDrive for the C64, this emulator looks for ADF files in the root of the USB drive and will mount them sequentially. Buttons on the unit itself lets you flip through files, again like the SDrive. The Amiga will boot from this machine as though it was a floppy disk, making it an ideal way to back up your floppies. I have one of these installed on my A1200.

XSp6nTh.jpg

MSX/2/Turbo

Most MSX games came on cartridges, but late in life a number of games came on floppies, including a number of very high profile games. These high profile games are extremely expensive - stuff like SD Snatcher, Metal Gear 2, and Aleste 2, making collecting these games pretty terrifying as you might spend hundreds of dollars on a product that could die shortly after, or never work to begin with.

My model of MSX2 doesn't even have a floppy drive to begin with. I have an external floppy drive that I connect through a cart slot that I use. Luckily, a prominent MSX figure in spain has released these hand made flash carts:

5Vfw2bq.png


These flash carts come with the SCC konami soundchip built in so they'll work with many konami games. Backing up a floppy to these carts is easy with the built in utility on the cart itself. These carts are actually better than the normal floppies as they allow you to apply a translation patch without saving over the floppies themselves. The guy makes a special model for Snatcher and SD Snatcher with an SCC2 clone inside for those games. The only downside is that floppy games will still seek to the floppy to save, so you need to connect a floppy drive to your MSX to save to, even if you're using the carts.

There are still numerous other systems which need to have their games preserved. I'm currently researching a method to connect an SD Card reader, for example, to my x68k, which used 5.25" floppies. Format shifting is important to preservation of these old machines. Hopefully this topic inspires some who retro collect to look into this process, and will also inspire others who format shift to share their secrets and tips.
 

Dicer

Banned
Awesome thread! I'm so glad people have made devices like these, to keep retro-computing alive and kicking....
 
never knew you could use CF cards as mini-hard-drives.

It was really popular with PC enthusiasts some years ago. You'd install your OS on that and enjoy. I think SSDs made them obsolete though.

OP, gonna need a picture of your CF card collection.
 

Koren

Member
Wow, a really nice write-up, never knew you could use CF cards as mini-hard-drives.
That's the main reason why they're more expensive than SD: they includes the controller. Very useful when you want to use them in small projects.

I'm still linking using them in DSLR cameras, and I think I'm not alone.
 

djtiesto

is beloved, despite what anyone might say
Really interesting reading about this! Preserving old media is a very interesting problem and seeing some of the solutions are clever and creative. Did not know you can use CF cards as 'mini hard drives'!
 

Krejlooc

Banned
Wow, a really nice write-up, never knew you could use CF cards as mini-hard-drives.

Another option is using modern 2.5" HDDs on old PC machines. Typically, you need to keep a partition down to below 4 gb (or else, on some mobos, the rest can't be seen) so I'll take a drive and partition it into many 4 gb partitions.

Using a 2.5" HDD bay for the front of your PC, you can run it through a SATA-IDE converter and connect it to an old mobo. I use this HDD bay:

DzHNkFW.jpg


and this SATA -> PATA IDE converter:

oe9Ck6x.jpg


To get all this interfaced and up and running on a Windows 98 build I have. This lets you hotswap modern SATA 2.5" HDDs on an old PC.
 

Willy Wanka

my god this avatar owns
This is a seriously interesting thread. Preserving old games like this is definitely the positive side to 'piracy'.
 
I worry about stuff like this all the time, so I'm glad there are people thinking about it and backing everything up.

I wonder how my old Apple IIC disks are doing, wherever they are in my parent's basement.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
OP, gonna need a picture of your CF card collection.

I have a snapshot online, actually. Not the entire collection but an idea of what they look like:

M6wDyUr.jpg


Incidentally, DRM free stuff from GOG or Steam RULES for stuff like this. My commander keen disks are dead and I just used the keen collection from steam to drop on these cards. Run like a champ on a real 486 no problem.
 

jimi_dini

Member
Floppy disks - both 5 1/4" and 3 1/2" disks - and magnetic tapes are becoming unreliable and finding backup (read: new) media to make a copy with is becoming increasingly difficult.

Hmmm, most of my CD backups, that I created around 2000 don't work anymore. I buy plenty of old games from 1990 and before that. And strangely almost all 5 1/4" and 3 1/2" floppies still work. Which is amazing.

I copy them over to SD cards of course.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
Hmmm, most of my CD backups, that I created around 2000 don't work anymore. I buy plenty of old games from 1990 and before that. And strangely almost all 5 1/4" and 3 1/2" floppies still work.

I copy them over to SD cards of course.

It sort of depends on how well you take care of your CD-Rs, but yeah, burned CD-Rs are lower quality than screened, real-deal CDs. I have a bunch of CD-Rs from 1997 that I'm in the process of rearchiving - just taking them and copying them to new CD-Rs so they'll last another 20 years or so. I also keep archives of all my stuff on redundant non-volitile media so I have a back up stash if I need, and I have a mini-server in a raid-0 configuration as well. If need be, I can recreate these backups any time I need.

Once I back up these discs or tapes, I put them into some cellophane, tape them shut, and keep them in their boxes. Hopefully I never have to use them ever again, and as far as I know, they were in working condition last time I used them :D

Buying old floppy games is a crap shoot for me. Sometimes they'll work, sometimes not. I have a copy of Doom 2 that is pristine - the dude actually shipped with a big notice on the front that they were magnetic data so the USPS people would avoid scanning them and intentionally ruining them.

I have a copy of Lionheart for the Amiga, beautiful game, pristine box... disks arrived dead. Really sad.
 

shuri

Banned
Excellent thread, excellent info and very detailled! We used to get many threads like this back in the days, its just so rare nowadays -_- ; I had no idea all those adapters existed!

I do have arcade boards of Killer instinct 1 and 2, and those games used 550mb ide hard drives; being old hardware from 1994, those hard drives started to fail! someone came up with a similar method using memory cards

kikit.jpg
 

Data West

coaches in the WNBA
Has anyone figured out a way to preserve the CPS2 board batteries? I know you're living on borrowed time with those things since Capcom stopped letting you send them in for repairs in the US and Europe.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
Excellent thread, excellent info and very detailled! We used to get many threads like this back in the days, its just so rare nowadays -_- ; I had no idea all those adapters existed!

I do have arcade boards of Killer instinct 1 and 2, and those games used 550mb ide hard drives; being old hardware from 1994, those hard drives started to fail! someone came up with a similar method using memory cards

kikit.jpg

I have these as well! Finding a properly formatted HDD for killer instinct is very difficult otherwise, because the formatting tool wasn't released. These things work like champs. Only a KI1 board over here, but I have a kit for KI2 if I ever buy a KI2 jamma board.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
Has anyone figured out a way to preserve the CPS2 board batteries? I know you're living on borrowed time with those things since Capcom stopped letting you send them in for repairs in the US and Europe.

CPS2 boards can be phoenixed by CPS2 shock. They'll reflash the ROMS with a patched version of the game that is unencrypted so they don't need the encryption key. All my CPS2 games are phoenixed.

Same has been done with various Sega boards, too. I have a copy of Michael Jackson's moonwalker that is revived this way after the suicide battery died.

All this involves burning eeproms, though, which is a bit different of a method.
 

bigb0ss

Banned
So could I technically I could use a CF card on my SFIII 3rd Strike CPSIII kit? Can I have it emulate the CD-ROM?
 

Krejlooc

Banned
Oh, one last thing about the USB reader for the Amiga, I picked up a bunch of these credit-card shaped USB drives in bulk for that project:

zf1mRIK.jpg


They haven't arrived yet but I got 50 on the way. I went with these because the thin card shape at least resembles a floppy and I can print out a label for them that'll physically make them resemble floppy disks.

The entire point of this is to not only use this on original hardware, but preserve the look and feel of using the original hardware. Some credit card shaped USB drives do that much more accurately than a normal pen drive.
 

jimi_dini

Member
It sort of depends on how well you take care of your CD-Rs, but yeah, burned CD-Rs are lower quality than screened, real-deal CDs.

Of course.
Even my first CD ever (pressed CD) still works without issues.

CD-Rs are crap and should not be used for backup purposes. Especially not for longterm backup.

Buying old floppy games is a crap shoot for me. Sometimes they'll work, sometimes not.

I think floppies are heat-sensitive. I bought quite a few from US (I live in Europe) and it worked all the time. A few PC-9801 floppies from Japan didn't work anymore, but that was just bad luck. Others included in the same order (even included in the same box) worked just fine.

Also most of the time the hardest part is to get the box and manuals in proper condition. I bought the European Leisure Suit Larry collection 3 times, because 2 times the box was badly damaged.
 

OmegaDL50

Member
Well magnetic storage issues seems to always go back to the issue of moving parts and heat generation.

Generally the drives comprised of moving parts and gears and because of the friction and constant movement they generally wear out over time.

This applies to optical disc drives as well due to motor that moves the mechanical lens and laser that needs to constantly move to read data. They don't use any moving parts, so the laws of friction don't apply it this case.

This is why I feel that compact flash and SD cards are optimal for storage because they don't have the same issue of wear and tear due to moving motors or a mechanical head reader.

An excellent and highly useful topic. Preservation of old classic mediums used for games and software being one of my favorite things.

To be able to go back and play old games 10 or so years later when the hardware no longer works or the cartridges begin to fail, finding a means to preserve and maintain their functionally is awesome stuff.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
Well magnetic storage issues seems to always go back to the issue of moving parts and heat generation.

Generally the drives comprised of moving parts and gears and because of the friction and constant movement they generally wear out over time.

This applies to optical disc drives as well due to motor that moves the mechanical lens and laser that needs to constantly move to read data. They don't use any moving parts, so the laws of friction don't apply it this case.

Not the subject of this thread, but maybe I'll do a follow up one sometime about physically replacing the drive motor, gears, and laser on many of these old systems. You can buy preassembled drives for many old systems. I have a stock of Sega Saturn, PC Engine, and CD32 drives just in case.

Also pertinent - people have begun developing drive replacements. There is already a dreamcast one and one for the saturn in development. These replace the entire drive entirely with an SD Card reader. This lets you read an SD Card as though it were a GD-Rom (or, when the saturn's reader is done, as a CD-ROM).

lKRUAIG.jpg
 

OmegaDL50

Member
Not the subject of this thread, but maybe I'll do a follow up one sometime about physically replacing the drive motor, gears, and laser on many of these old systems. You can buy preassembled drives for many old systems. I have a stock of Sega Saturn, PC Engine, and CD32 drives just in case.

Also pertinent - people have begun developing drive replacements. There is already a dreamcast one and one for the saturn in development. These replace the entire drive entirely with an SD Card reader. This lets you read an SD Card as though it were a GD-Rom (or, when the saturn's reader is done, as a CD-ROM).

lKRUAIG.jpg

My post was mostly in reply to jimi_dini, when he mentioned the heat generation issue with floppies.

But that SD card reader replacing the Dreamcast's GD-Rom drive an awesome concept.

Thanks for the useful discussion Krejlooc
 

Tempy

don't ask me for codes
Very informative OP. Thinking of grabbing a C64 one day. Wish someone would just kickstart making replicas of old hardware.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
Very informative OP. Thinking of grabbing a C64 one day. Wish someone would just kickstart making replicas of old hardware.

So sometimes they do! These 1-Chip MSX2 clones were sold midway through the 2000's in super limited quantities:

fgucT6f.jpg


These things are AWESOME. Despite being a SOAC, they function perfectly, and have a built in SD-Card reader. They're huge collector's items today, but when they were on sale they weren't very expensive.

There are also the C64 joystick machines that are sold in stores like walmart:

VQdgNmE.jpg


These are also SOAC clones, but what is cool about these is that the motherboard for them contains non-used leads for many C64 ports not included. So, if you're handy with a soldering iron, you can solder on floppy disc drive and controller port mounts, and turn these things into real Commodore 64s.
 

kadotsu

Banned
I love stuff like this. I hope that bigger and more affordable FPGAs will make retro gaming cheaper and more future proof. When I was studying I read up on some VHDL implementations of parts of the C64.

A question I always had is if Nintendo needs to share the plans of their consoles when their designs enter the public domain? That would help immensely for development (even if SNES has already been emulated cycle accurate).
 

Madao

Member
Not the subject of this thread, but maybe I'll do a follow up one sometime about physically replacing the drive motor, gears, and laser on many of these old systems. You can buy preassembled drives for many old systems. I have a stock of Sega Saturn, PC Engine, and CD32 drives just in case.

Also pertinent - people have begun developing drive replacements. There is already a dreamcast one and one for the saturn in development. These replace the entire drive entirely with an SD Card reader. This lets you read an SD Card as though it were a GD-Rom (or, when the saturn's reader is done, as a CD-ROM).

lKRUAIG.jpg

that's really nice.
hopefully there's a similar thing for GC and Wii eventually. in this aspect it is better that Nintendo used carts on their previous consoles.

speaking of that, Nintendo needs to release F-Zero X's Expansion Kit on VC. since the 64DD wasn't popular at all and it has less than 10 games, that thing will never get any kind of refurbs to keep the games alive like other systems and we're reaching the point where those disks can break any day from now (speaking of that, how is the reliability of ZIP-like disks?)
 

Tempy

don't ask me for codes
So sometimes they do! These 1-Chip MSX2 clones were sold midway through the 2000's in super limited quantities:

fgucT6f.jpg


These things are AWESOME. Despite being a SOAC, they function perfectly, and have a built in SD-Card reader. They're huge collector's items today, but when they were on sale they weren't very expensive.

That looks hawt!

I do collect NES clones and such, as well as things like TV Plug & Play arcade classics, and the upcoming Colecovision/Intellivision Flashbacks. I have some replica Atari 2600 joysticks and NES/SNES gamepads as well. They're often cheap quality though. Not enough replicas/clones nowadays which strive for quality instead of low price.
 

Man God

Non-Canon Member
So sometimes they do! These 1-Chip MSX2 clones were sold midway through the 2000's in super limited quantities:

fgucT6f.jpg


These things are AWESOME. Despite being a SOAC, they function perfectly, and have a built in SD-Card reader. They're huge collector's items today, but when they were on sale they weren't very expensive.

There are also the C64 joystick machines that are sold in stores like walmart:

VQdgNmE.jpg


These are also SOAC clones, but what is cool about these is that the motherboard for them contains non-used leads for many C64 ports not included. So, if you're handy with a soldering iron, you can solder on floppy disc drive and controller port mounts, and turn these things into real Commodore 64s.

Yeah, I was surprised as hell when I bought out the inventory of an old import/export business and I found out just how valuable a crate of those things were. People ran up the bidding like crazy to get one.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
hopefully there's a similar thing for GC and Wii eventually. in this aspect it is better that Nintendo used carts on their previous consoles.

You can already read games off the built-in SD Drive on the Wii, and you can connect USB harddrives to the Wii as well. You can run both GCN and Wii games on the Wii without using the disc drive.

how is the reliability of ZIP-like disks?

They're not reliable at all. A bunch are already dead, and like wise I have tons of dead Famicom Disk System disks, too.
 

Madao

Member
You can already read games off the built-in SD Drive on the Wii, and you can connect USB harddrives to the Wii as well. You can run both GCN and Wii games on the Wii without using the disc drive.

i already do that heh. i didn't stop to think about it until now since i use the actual drives when doing stuff like a speed run (speed runners have rules that forbid use of modded hardware. i guess speedrunning is the thing most in danger from dying media) but for playing a game at a leisure pace i often load them from SD or USB to keep the disc drives from wearing out.

They're not reliable at all. A bunch are already dead, and like wise I have tons of dead Famicom Disk System disks, too.

oh shit. that's so bad. it sucks to think that something like F-Zero X Expansion Kit will be completely gone from the world in a few years (there's no emulator for 64DD games either so no luck on that side)
 

Man God

Non-Canon Member
The best part about using a 486 DX as a base for retro pc gaming is that it also ends up targeting Windows 95 games, which are tricky as hell to get working on other platforms. DOSBOX might not play everything perfectly but its a hell of a lot better than a ton of Windows 95 games which refuse to play on any other platform. Windows 98 also has issues when it comes to this though XP's compatability mode did an admirable job with a lot of them.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
oh shit. that's so bad. it sucks to think that something like F-Zero X Expansion Kit will be completely gone from the world in a few years (there's no emulator for 64DD games either so no luck on that side)

The F-Zero X editor is actually built into the game itself. The DD itself is just an interface to save your data with. You can actually access the F-Zero X editor with many emulators and even on real hardware with a PAR, and edit tracks, you just can't save them.

Something like the Everdrive 64 would be able to run the editor no problem.

The best part about using a 486 DX as a base for retro pc gaming is that it also ends up targeting Windows 95 games, which are tricky as hell to get working on other platforms. DOSBOX might not play everything perfectly but its a hell of a lot better than a ton of Windows 95 games which refuse to play on any other platform. Windows 98 also has issues when it comes to this though XP's compatability mode did an admirable job with a lot of them.

I have a windows 95 machine I have built, Pentium 166 mhz with a diamond edge 3D NV1 "Sega PC" card. I have 4 games for that card - Panzer Dragoon, Virtua Fighter, Toshinden, and Descent. Those games will not run on anything else. They require that card and a real Windows 95 machine, original edition (no service packs). The card renders quads, not triangles.
 

Madao

Member
The F-Zero X editor is actually built into the game itself. The DD itself is just an interface to save your data with. You can actually access the F-Zero X editor with many emulators and even on real hardware with a PAR, and edit tracks, you just can't save them.

Something like the Everdrive 64 would be able to run the editor no problem.

i already know about that (in fact, i helped the guy who made that editor back in the day by giving him data about some tracks) but it's just not the same as the actual thing since there's several little things that are different between them because Nintendo tweaked the code of the whole game a bit when you play with the EK compared to playing vanilla FZX (the EK really resembles a DLC patch in many ways).
btw, a bit technical but the rom editor doesn't work on console. it is a windows tool (which might be hard to run in the future depending on how windows evolves lol)

i guess this is mostly a conflict between just being able to play stuff and being able to play in the most original way possible. i guess i'll accept it over time once my disks die but still it somewhat sucks. i'll just try to keep in mind to always copy the coordinates of tracks i make to be able to recreate them on emulator (though the EK can make things impossible on emulator. i made a couple of tracks that are impossible to create on vanilla FZX)

this would be a good reason to do a campaign for Nintendo to release the EK on Wii U VC (or later) when they get to releasing N64 games again.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
i already know about that (in fact, i helped the guy who made that editor back in the day by giving him data about some tracks) but it's just not the same as the actual thing since there's several little things that are different between them because Nintendo tweaked the code of the whole game a bit when you play with the EK compared to playing vanilla FZX (the EK really resembles a DLC patch in many ways).
btw, a bit technical but the rom editor doesn't work on console. it is a windows tool (which might be hard to run in the future depending on how windows evolves lol)

i guess this is mostly a conflict between just being able to play stuff and being able to play in the most original way possible. i guess i'll accept it over time once my disks die but still it somewhat sucks. i'll just try to keep in mind to always copy the coordinates of tracks i make to be able to recreate them on emulator (though the EK can make things impossible on emulator. i made a couple of tracks that are impossible to create on vanilla FZX)

this would be a good reason to do a campaign for Nintendo to release the EK on Wii U VC (or later) when they get to releasing N64 games again.

With the PC Engine, there is a utility someone made to read SRAM from the system for archival, it would display, in hex, the current SRAM in its entirety. It also had a built in hex editor, so you could manually enter back in all the information. This utility was made so that one could make a permanent backup copy of their PC Engine saves.

Well, the reason I bring this up is because a bunch of us began working on a version of this program that would output the SRAM of the system through the headphone port as audio, similar to the way the C64 tape drive worked. We had a partially working solution but never advanced where we could dump the SRAM as audio, and you could connect your PC's line in to the PC Engine's audio out and use a program we built that functioned like a DAC to turn the audio back into SRAM. The idea was that people could then burn their SRAM onto a utility disc we were going to make which would dump it back into the PC Engine without having to manually type this in.

Thanks to tools like the Everdrive 64 and the composite AV out on the N64, it would be theoretically possible to do the same thing with F-Zero X. Edit the rom so that you could output the current track, as audio, through one of the audio channels, save it onto your PC, then use a utility to patch the track back onto the rom as a pre-existing track.

Like you said, it'd lose some functionality but it'd retain the ability to save and load tracks on a normal F-Zero cart.

I haven't the time or motivation to do something like that, but it's all definitely possible if someone were compelled enough to do so.
 

jvm

Gamasutra.
Didn't see this mentioned:

http://c64preservation.com

Just go read the crazy stuff about the lengths they've gone to in order to faithfully replicate original media.

According to the different copiers/patchers for this that existed are at least 7 different versions (plus variants) of this protection. There are multiple protection schemes all going on at once. Since this protection relies on exact sync lengths and contains bad GCR in the gaps, the disks seem to deteriorate quickly over the years. Many of my originals will not load any more, and the ones that do are erratic.

1) First, all tracks start with a sync mark about 320 bits long. Then, sector 0 has a sync about 480 bits long before it's header. If it isn't around this length, that track or sector won't load and you get a crash, so drive speed is an issue with this protection. All other syncs seem to be the standard 40 bits. It is very difficult to read/detect and write exact sync lengths due to drive speed differences and limitations of the 1541 hardware, but we should be able to get close enough to pass this part, which we can.

2) Each gap has bad GCR ($00) instead of the inert bytes we normally see. It has been found that these are not checked..

3) There is a key encoded on track 36. The key consists of a long sync, a series of encoded bytes, then some bad GCR. This track can be (carefully) reimaged.

4) If the key is properly loaded and decrypted from track 36, it corresponds to a table of 35 values that are the number of $7B bytes (this varies) expected to be in a special "sector" on each track.

4) It just has "time-bomb hooks" or add-ons that execute checksums, key checks, and track alignment at random times in the game to prevent patching.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
Didn't see this mentioned:

http://c64preservation.com

Just go read the crazy stuff about the lengths they've gone to in order to faithfully replicate original media.

This is a very noble project because finding non-cracked copies of some titles is literally impossible now. It's theorized, for example, that no original, non-cracked copies of the Amiga version of Great Giana Sisters exists anymore. Cracks were handy if you hated copy protection schemes (look up 8th word in 9th paragraph of blah blah blah) or wanted trainers installed, but they'd change art or modify parts of the game. Cracks are obvious by their inserted intros.

This is a big reason why I make back ups of my actual titles - to avoid trainers and cracks. That's a neat website. Good cause.
 

kess

Member
I happen to have a fair amount of hard to find laserdiscs, and it's always been in the back of my mind that it's going to be extremely difficult to get certain animation releases that weren't released anywhere else.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
I happen to have a fair amount of hard to find laserdiscs, and it's always been in the back of my mind that it's going to be extremely difficult to get certain animation releases that weren't released anywhere else.

If you're interested, I got a buddy who is doing a bunch of laser disc rips right now, actually. He's got a full Sega LD set and is ripping all of those. I'm sure I could get him in contact with you and have him teach you how to do an actual laser disc rip of your laserdiscs.

For my own (like my star wars theatrical discs) I just used a capture card on my PC and dumped them that way as raw video. Obviously Sega LD games are a bit different and require an accurate rip of the disc.
 
The most useful thread this forum has seen in years. Nicely done!

Yes, Krejlooc this thread is AMAZING! I have a lot to learn. I hope you plan/are interested in newer consoles as well. I am highly interested in preserving the 3D era, which I know is not a popular conern at the moment.
 
Very good info store you've posted. The physical media side of old games is too often overlooked, something I'm guilty of.
Great thread. My buddy has this method done with his x68k - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPVyyk3d01k&list=UUhJpPIRfNNqlB0dwlQQVLVQ - if that helps you.

Also PC-98.
Didn't know you knew him! I also enjoy Lukemorse's channel, both are excellent for observing the old Japanese PCs in operation.

I have a windows 95 machine I have built, Pentium 166 mhz with a diamond edge 3D NV1 "Sega PC" card. I have 4 games for that card - Panzer Dragoon, Virtua Fighter, Toshinden, and Descent. Those games will not run on anything else. They require that card and a real Windows 95 machine, original edition (no service packs). The card renders quads, not triangles.
I'm reminded of the many games we can play on modern systems only through the Glide API for modern Nvidia cards. Good thing Artdink released a DirectX version of A-Train 5, since I don't think PowerVR games for Windows 95/98 function in most situations.
 

jvm

Gamasutra.
I'd like to mention that demo discs for ps1 and onward through Xbox are really a neat artifact of the game industry that I'd like to preserve. Given how little to no physical media may exist soon, they are particularly identified with a narrow band of time within the industry. Just my particular predilection.
 
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