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PS, I Love You- Greg Miller's new PlayStation Podcast
- Thread starter EdReedFan20
- Start date
Goldenroad
Member
Call it what you want, but a privileged white male with no empathy for other genders or races fits the bill to a T. Like who gets offended by an article saying that some people might be offended by something? Basically, him, that Milo Yansinsioplis guy and the rest of the alt right on Twitter. Normal people would just go "oh, I didn't know that was offensive. I guess I learned something"...and move on...but he makes a point of getting offended as a white guy that something some other white people made was offensive to someone. It's insane. Like I say, I'm not saying he should start a support group for Native Americans or anything, but maybe just accept that once in a while there is a topic that you don't need to have an opinion on.
meanspartan
Member
Nope. It was a clear bait and switch. People who complained about being forced to pay for online gaming on Ps4 were told it wasn't that bad because Plus was so awesome on Ps3.
Now, we get mostly indies. I'm happy for you if you like indies, that is awesome, but I want some damn big budget titles too, we've only gotten a small handful of those. We are now 3.5 years into this gen, they don't have the excuse of the big budget games being too new to give away any more.
Some Nobody
Junior Member
Yeah, that's cute but no. I get pissed on behalf of creators when it feels like people get offended just for the sake of. And I'm no one's " alt right". I'm not even center right.
Also your hyperbole is gross. COLIN is the worst person in video games? Yeah, maybe in a SUPER narrow view that leaves out any popular fuckheads that are basically GGers.
Did you just call everybody who made Horizon: Zero Dawn white? And, as a hispanic, I hate seeing white people get upset over something that literally has no effect on me or my culture. It is frustrating. When you see a bunch of people complaining and being offended over something, it paints your culture a certain way, for better or for worse. I shouldn't be defined about how other people feel, but how I feel.
What?
A. Why not trust the creator to listen to criticism and then for them to decide if they will or won't to adapt to it?
B. Why do you decide they are offended just for the sake of it? It says more about you that you assume their criticisms aren't honest.
That late NovDecJanFeb Combo with Dragons Dogma, DmC, BioShock Infinite and the likes was so friggin gooooood. Never came close to that again, no matter how brillant a one-off as Rocket League is. It is not about AAA games in General for me, but the consistency of absolutely terrific titles in the span of a few month.
D
Deleted member 471617
Unconfirmed Member
I agree with Colin 100% regarding Horizon and Wildlands. As usual, it's just people bitching about something. Nothing new here.
I own a PS4 Pro, Xbox One Slim and soon a Switch and later this year, a Scorpio. PlayStation 4 is my primary console for the exclusives, PSN games, Indies and multi-platform games while Xbox One Slim and Switch are just used for exclusives.
Last gen was the opposite. Xbox 360 was my primary console for exclusives, multi-platform games and XBLA games while PlayStation 3 was just for six exclusives. This generation has thus far been the opposite of last generation for me personally.
The wildcard is Scorpio. Will it surpass PS4 Pro in regards to the multi-platform games running and looking better? That's the main question for me which requires a wait and see approach.
I own a PS4 Pro, Xbox One Slim and soon a Switch and later this year, a Scorpio. PlayStation 4 is my primary console for the exclusives, PSN games, Indies and multi-platform games while Xbox One Slim and Switch are just used for exclusives.
Last gen was the opposite. Xbox 360 was my primary console for exclusives, multi-platform games and XBLA games while PlayStation 3 was just for six exclusives. This generation has thus far been the opposite of last generation for me personally.
The wildcard is Scorpio. Will it surpass PS4 Pro in regards to the multi-platform games running and looking better? That's the main question for me which requires a wait and see approach.
names2hard4you
Member
Goldenroad what are you even saying my man.
But yeah I too can't help but roll my eyes at all the knights in shining armour these days, typing furiously at their keyboards about social issues like they actually cared. But that's a whole different topic that would derail from my main point. Stuff like the Horizon deal are just embarrassing to see. Guerrilla should be applauded for the diversity injected into their game. This really is a case of "you can never win", tbh. If everyone is white it's because everyone is white. If the main character is a woman, it's because it's not a man. If there is diversity it's because the diversity isn't well represented. Come on people. Let the creator create and respect their vision. This is 2017, we are way ahead of where we were 10 years ago in terms of social diversity, but this is not how you encourage it. If anything, by being this anal, you are only making things worse.
But yeah I too can't help but roll my eyes at all the knights in shining armour these days, typing furiously at their keyboards about social issues like they actually cared. But that's a whole different topic that would derail from my main point. Stuff like the Horizon deal are just embarrassing to see. Guerrilla should be applauded for the diversity injected into their game. This really is a case of "you can never win", tbh. If everyone is white it's because everyone is white. If the main character is a woman, it's because it's not a man. If there is diversity it's because the diversity isn't well represented. Come on people. Let the creator create and respect their vision. This is 2017, we are way ahead of where we were 10 years ago in terms of social diversity, but this is not how you encourage it. If anything, by being this anal, you are only making things worse.
You both seem very upset that a person of Native American heritage voiced some of her concerns about the game.
Maybe we could, like, let her have her viewpoint and the ability to express it? I strongly expect it won't harm the sales of the game.
You're right in that it won't hurt the game's sales at all... plurality of thought and opinion is a great thing - I'd have loved it if her piece was voiced in a way that said "here's something you probably haven't ever considered: some people consider the following terms offensive and here's why..."
The fact that the commentator started by calling out reviewers like they're somehow complicit in an industrial-racism conspiracy was where it lost me.
I think Colin is too hard on Switch's lineup. Zelda, Splatoon 2, Xenoblade Chronicles 2, Mario Odyssey, Mario Kart 8 DX. Plus maybe another game or two yet to be revealed.
PS4 and XB1's first year were pathetic compared to that. None of the 3 are great, but Switch does deserve at least a little credit.
PS4 and XB1's first year were pathetic compared to that. None of the 3 are great, but Switch does deserve at least a little credit.
I think because he missed out the Wii U, he hasn't played games like Xenoblade, Mario Kart and Splatoon.
Sure, but you can still give credit to games you haven't played.
We live in a world where Splatoon is as big as Gears.
SolidSnakex
Member
I still don't get where Colin is coming from as far as the PS4 not hitting 100 million. It should surpass 70m by the end of the year. So it'll be 30m out from hitting that number. That'd be one hell of a collapse for it not to reach that mark. Especially since Sony seems to be far more aggressive in pricing with it in comparison to the PS3, and it having games like TLoU P2, Spider-Man, God of War, Days Gone and whatever else Sony has in their pipeline along with third party titles.
"Why are all these people getting offended on behalf of _______?" lets you know pretty quickly who is willing to listen to the concerns and criticisms of marginalized people and who would rather just write them off because they don't want to make an effort to understand and empathize.
Also, game developers are adults. They don't need you to defend them from criticism. Moreover, we need to stop confusing criticism with absence of praise. A game can be praised for its representation of women and criticized for its treatment of indigenous cultures. These are not mutually exclusive. A game can be praised for its mechanical depth and criticized for the third act of its story. Horizon is not infallible; there will never be a game that is. We should welcome all criticism and make sure not to discount voices that have gone unheard just because their argument isn't immediately recognizable to us.
Also, game developers are adults. They don't need you to defend them from criticism. Moreover, we need to stop confusing criticism with absence of praise. A game can be praised for its representation of women and criticized for its treatment of indigenous cultures. These are not mutually exclusive. A game can be praised for its mechanical depth and criticized for the third act of its story. Horizon is not infallible; there will never be a game that is. We should welcome all criticism and make sure not to discount voices that have gone unheard just because their argument isn't immediately recognizable to us.
He might be thinking the last 20 millions to 100 comes from a more casual audience that permanently moved to mobile or Sony would release PS5 sooner and would cut into PS4 sales. I still think it would hit 100 millions easily.
SolidSnakex
Member
I don't think the PS5 would hurt additional PS4 sales too much assuming that Sony treats it the way they did the PS2. The PS2 survived a decent amount of time after the PS3 launched. They really just dropped the PS3 completely due to how long it'd been around. It seemed like they didn't feel they could squeeze additional sales out of it and they didn't want their teams staying on it either. But the PS4 is clearly different. I mean, can you imagine what numbers a $150 or even a $99 PS4 could do? The PS4 is only a little over three years old and Sony's already flirting with a permanent $250 price, which means that it'll almost certainly have special holiday price of $200. So, they tip-toeing closer to those old PS2-like casual friendly prices.
Sauce Marlow
Member
Lol okay. PS4 and One had Assasins Creed: Blackflag, Battlefield 4, Call of Duty: Ghosts, FIFA 14, Injustice, Killzone: Shadow Fall, Knack, LEGO Marvel, Madden, NBA 2K14, Need for Speed Rivals, Resogun, Dead Rising 3, Forza 5, Killer Instinct and Ryse all in the first TWO MONTHS.
If you expand it to a 10 month window like Nintendo has until the end of the year, PS4 and One also had Outlast, Metal Gear Solid V, Infamous: Second Son, MLB 14: The Show, The Last of Us Remastered, P.T. and Madden 15.
Nintendo's current announced lineup through the end of 2017 is nowhere near the first 10 months of PS4 and Xbox One.
meanspartan
Member
I dont agree that Horizon is at all offensive.
Do feel bad for natives though, probably the only racial minority you can take potshots at with few repurcussions lol. Anyone seen that Cleveland Indians logo? Its like a damn jim crow era caricature.
RedAssedApe
Banned
re: horizon "controversy" i was in agreement with colin at first but then as he always does he had to double-down and take his opinion to the extreme lol
Same here. I understand the gut reaction that it's an absurd thing to be upset over. I also understand the frustration that by "nit-picking" a relatively progressive game, it can cover-up all of the positive things Horizon does. I get the reaction of "Really, this is the thing you're choosing to attack?"
The thing is, I don't have the right to have an opinion on a culture that doesn't belong to me. I have no right to tell minorities how they are allowed to feel about how they are treated. I'm a human and I will have involuntary responses such as "that doesn't seem offensive to me". I may even choose not to act upon the way someone else feels if I give it fair examination. That's fine. But I would never tell someone who feels belittled to shut up.
Side note: I feel so embarrassed for our medium that having a female character is considered progressive. Gamers fucking suck.
I guess it depends a lot on personal taste, but that list looks like almost all filler to me. Infamous is pretty good but disposable. MGSV is incredible. Resogun is a great downloadable, same for Outlast and P.T. I'm not familiar with that Forza game but I'll assume it's good. TLOU is great... after that it's just games that will be in the 5 dollar bin next year. And that's between two consoles.
To me it seems almost indisputable that even though Switch is missing the obligatory "check it off the list" games, it has more premier games. I'm not making the argument that Switch has a great lineup. But I am remembering how barren the first year of PS4 and XB1 felt. Even in year two, remember Dragon Age and Mordor being the GOTY contenders? That's just depressing. So Switch may not have a great lineup, but it also doesn't have a lineup that can be swept under the rug.
I actually have problems with the article in question but I get far more annoyed by framing it as "people get offended to easily". It's way of deligitamising concerns over minority representation and doesn't engage with criticism in any productive way.
Sauce Marlow
Member
I understand where you're coming from, but those "5 dollar bin" games keep people invested in the console until the massive tentpole games come.
Right now Switch has a handful of what we're assuming will be good to amazing games coming in the first 10 months (Zelda, Mario Kart, Splatoon, Mario) but there's not much in between, and it gets even worse if you're not a Zelda or Splatoon fan, or don't want to buy Mario Kart 8 for a second time.
I considered getting a Switch at launch, but then I weighed up that in the first year or so it would be just collecting dust outside of Zelda and Mario that it wouldn't be worth the money at the moment.
Only if it's a legitimate gripe. Saying Horizon is racist for including the word "Savage", is not a legitimate gripe, because all you're proving to me, in that argument, is that you haven't played the game, or yes, you're offended too easily. I won't engage with that criticism, because it's a stupid criticism.
If we, as the left, continue to pick little fights over dumb shit like this, we ultimately hurt our own movement. So when there is a legitimate gripe to be had, instead of being listened to, we get, "Those are the same butt-hurt guys who thought Horizon was racist, LOL!"
thekiddfran
Member
I am sorry but this Colin hating has gone too far. He was defending the devs for standing up for themselves about a completely retarded arguement posted by a person who didn't even play the game.
Why must people be offended by EVERYTHING nowadays.
The games was getting nothing but praise until this idiot journalist wrote a nonsense piece about a game with one of the racially diverse set of characters I have ever seen in a game.
Seriously get over yourself if you are offended by this.
Agree with the Horizon and Wildlands part. Laughable
Regarding the Scorpio of course it will look better, but who is gonna buy it to play third party games just for that reason? A really small minority
PS4 pro is selling around 15-20% of all the PS4's sold and it will sell more than Scorpio WW. That is a given. Even Phil Spencer said Scorpio is for the hardcore minority and XBOX Slim will be the best seller. I don't think Scorpio will be more than 20-25% of the sells of Xbox, and as Colin said the gap between PS4 and XBoX is more than 2-1 and it will widen.
I'm glad that he has come around to the notion that Scorpio is just an XBoX pro.
He is wrong regarding the notion that Pro is not selling well. 15-20% is a great number for a SKU tha costs almost double and is has not been bundled
Again, you're not really trying to engage with the topic or be empathetic to their concerns. You're too easy to dismiss their viewpoint and seemingly get very upset by its existence.
The vast majority of people don't hold a lot of value in the piece but it's getting a lot more exposure because of people like Colin who are angry at the sheer thought of it
1. Do Guerilla Games and their multi million dollar backers need defending by Colin from this blog post?
You can see one of the writers provided a much more professional and mature response to the criticism
https://waypoint.vice.com/en_us/art...to-criticism-of-native-american-appropriation
2. Let's tone down the ableism.
3. The phrase 'offended' seems to be used as a whole brand term for disagreement/upset/dissatisfaction etc. I wish we actually discussed how the game made us feel in more depth rather than just sweeping it under the rug as being framed as "offended" (often it's those upset that someone would have the gall to be critical of representation who use the phrase "offended" the most.
GhostOfSparta305
Banned
Agreed, mostly (MGS5 was well after the PS4's first 10 months)..
The fact that the other poster used last-gen ports to defend Switch sunk his argument even further. TLOU: Remastered and GTA V on PS4/XB1 alone overshadow Switch's entire announced lineup thus far.
DarkStream
Member
I understand where Colin is coming from.
My problem is with his way of discussion. He usually starts out quite passionate about an often valid point of view, yet he then proceeds to take a more and more aggressive stand. To the point where he really can come of as aggressive, devalueing other opinions and almost belittling the inteligence of anyone but him. He usually also starts bringing in more overarching political points over time, muddling the original point and then what he says starts to look like a general politics rant.
That is okay, but he would need a "counter weight" during those times. A guy like Colin shines when he gets the intellectual competition he seems to crave.
Now, there is not a "fundamental" problem with Colin, but it is more the way he conducts himself.
I think a more balanced, I don't know, way of talking about his points would do wonders.
I also almost can feel Greg's unease when it came to the Horizon discussion. The hosts seem to be on really different wavelengths at the moment, and that is okay. Yet, it seems that both are maybe developing in different directions.
Sorry, bad English.
My problem is with his way of discussion. He usually starts out quite passionate about an often valid point of view, yet he then proceeds to take a more and more aggressive stand. To the point where he really can come of as aggressive, devalueing other opinions and almost belittling the inteligence of anyone but him. He usually also starts bringing in more overarching political points over time, muddling the original point and then what he says starts to look like a general politics rant.
That is okay, but he would need a "counter weight" during those times. A guy like Colin shines when he gets the intellectual competition he seems to crave.
Now, there is not a "fundamental" problem with Colin, but it is more the way he conducts himself.
I think a more balanced, I don't know, way of talking about his points would do wonders.
I also almost can feel Greg's unease when it came to the Horizon discussion. The hosts seem to be on really different wavelengths at the moment, and that is okay. Yet, it seems that both are maybe developing in different directions.
Sorry, bad English.
Because we shouldn't be empathetic to an illegitimate complaint. I'm not quick to dismiss their viewpoint, I carefully read their argument and came to the conclusion that it was BS. Like anyone who has actually played the game. Why engage that? If they offer an opinion with no substance, why should i offer substance in return?
I don't really get angry at the thought that this opinion exists, because I can easily dismiss a single person as an ignorant idiot. But when a bunch of people blindly follow that opinion, because they think they're taking some king of moral high-ground, it does piss me off, because it ultimately hurts us with ACTUAL progressive arguments. Especially considering the stories exposure.
I get what you're saying, and again, where there's a legitimate gripe I'll fly that flag right there beside you. But we must learn to call bullshit, bullshit.
Darryl M R
Member
Colin's outrage about other people's outrage has passed the point of annoyance. He writes off Greg's claim that the comments about the Native American article receiving push back and just continues on his soapbox. A lot of people have stated that the article misses a lot of key point but he rather use it as an example to attack "outrage culture."
And you have to be a complete idiot not to understand why dressing up as a Native American for your costume is an issue. But please tell me why other groups of people should not be offended for that. "Blacks can defend blacks. Women can defend women" is an statement out of his ass that completely ignores the values of allies.
Once again the article was off base and most people that were discussing it pushed back but that won't stop Colin from pushing his "everything is identity politic" agenda.
And you have to be a complete idiot not to understand why dressing up as a Native American for your costume is an issue. But please tell me why other groups of people should not be offended for that. "Blacks can defend blacks. Women can defend women" is an statement out of his ass that completely ignores the values of allies.
Once again the article was off base and most people that were discussing it pushed back but that won't stop Colin from pushing his "everything is identity politic" agenda.
That was dumb as hell. I'm interested to see if Colin is successful in getting the writer to talk to him.
I'm also a little confused about the article itself. In reading it I can't tell if it's critiquing the games media for their use of "savage", "tribal" and "primitive" in reviewing the game or the use of "brave" in the actual game.
The Salt Life
Banned
Completely agreed with Colin and Greg on the whole horizon stuff. Think it's time for me to start supporting them and joining the patreon or whatever they use.
This is me, my ps4 is only turned on for exclusives, my friends are all on Xbox, my clans and guilds are on Xbox. Just the way it is.
Scrotum Phillips
Member
I'm just confused what's going on here with this rant. So, an extremely fringe opinion that is widely panned by almost everyone deserves this type of response? I know this is impossible to know for sure, but realistically what percentage of people who played Horizon shared this opinion? It's gotta be less than 5% and maybe even much less than that. That's akin to responding to the egg avatars on twitter and giving this air time is acting like it's a legit widely held position. It's like arguing with someone that thinks pizza is bad. Sure, that's an opinion you can have, but it's so far in the minority that it's not even worth the time.
And as usual, he then takes this relatively isolated issue and acts like this is an epidemic problem. Categorizing this complaint with others, that i'd argue have merit (a white man should not dress up as a Native American for Halloween), just cheapens the discourse.
He also did something like this when that shitty Tiger game out as well and acted like Playstation has this catastrophic too many games/lack of curation thing going on.
And as usual, he then takes this relatively isolated issue and acts like this is an epidemic problem. Categorizing this complaint with others, that i'd argue have merit (a white man should not dress up as a Native American for Halloween), just cheapens the discourse.
He also did something like this when that shitty Tiger game out as well and acted like Playstation has this catastrophic too many games/lack of curation thing going on.
MadLaughter
Member
Colin Moriarty doesn't have enough empathy for other human beings, which results in a pattern of belittling the concerns of others. Just because you didn't bristle at something doesn't mean a human being with different experiences is somehow WRONG for bristling at that thing.
Saying "____" is a stupid concern" is shortsighted as hell. The native/brave/savage stuff in Horizon personally doesn't bother me, but that doesn't mean I think EVERYONE shouldn't be bothered by it. A person with Native American heritage should definitely be allowed to hold people to a higher standard when it is their culture (or a facsimile thereof)that is being explored.
Saying "____" is a stupid concern" is shortsighted as hell. The native/brave/savage stuff in Horizon personally doesn't bother me, but that doesn't mean I think EVERYONE shouldn't be bothered by it. A person with Native American heritage should definitely be allowed to hold people to a higher standard when it is their culture (or a facsimile thereof)that is being explored.
I agree about them in regards to this whole issue about Horizon. I also agree that people are too quick to anger these days and I think that it's takes away from valid arguments that people have about equality and injustice because they get lumped in with nonsensical garbage despite being legitimate.
And horizon is one of the most diverse games I've ever seen in terms of representation and it does it in such a great way, showing characters of different ethnicities, races, and genders without going out of their way to point it out. Seeing a society ruled by women was awesome and it just was that way. Maybe further in he game there's more explanation in regards to this but it honestly doesn't even need it, this is just how that society works. Guerilla deserves praise for that more than they deserve any criticism.
And horizon is one of the most diverse games I've ever seen in terms of representation and it does it in such a great way, showing characters of different ethnicities, races, and genders without going out of their way to point it out. Seeing a society ruled by women was awesome and it just was that way. Maybe further in he game there's more explanation in regards to this but it honestly doesn't even need it, this is just how that society works. Guerilla deserves praise for that more than they deserve any criticism.
He had a great discussion with Adam Boyes, formally of Sony and now with Iron Galaxy, about this topic. Boyes seemed to open his eyes quite a bit.
You can watch it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWTaRiPPZrE
meanspartan
Member
Yes but by this logic we can never call ANYTHING stupid or trivial, because someone somewhere might be bothered by it.
The burden is on the person making the (outrageous) claim to show why we should care about them being offended, it isn't on everyone else to be preemptively ready to be offended on their behalf.
Now, of course there are things we as a society have agreed are beyond the pale and are prime facie offensive, except when used in maybe comedy. But this bullshit doesn't even come close to that.
You're talking about a guy who won't even take time out of his day to learn what safe spaces actually are, or to try to understand the basics of institutional racism. So, nothing he says is particularly surprising anymore. Hell, I'm a little surprised that he even bothered to praise Horizon for its diversity.
And, look, I don't think Colin is an actively malicious guy. But when a listener writes in to say that, as a woman, seeing well-done female protagonists is cool and empowering, and he responds by saying that diversity in games will only bring non-white, non-male people to gaming "in a small way," it feels like he just doesn't understand. I'm glad that he personally appreciates diversity for its potential to diversify the stories told in games, but I wish he viewed it as an imperative.
There is also a burden on you, me, and everyone else to make an authentic effort to understand the perspectives of indigenous people, rather than dismissing them because they're not immediately familiar or comprehensible to us. Their voices have been silenced and spoken over for far too long.
The Salt Life
Banned
He missed about 50 other famous people from the island, dude is great on podcasts but no where near top 10.
I think Colin has just as much empathy as me, average levels, as he pointed out some people will cape up for anything and everything. I would say they are overly empathetic.
Horizon is the most diverse game I ever played and I love the fact that they don't shove it down my throat, it's done naturally! No eye rolling moments, it's perfect, believable and welcome game in today's climate.
I think Colin has just as much empathy as me, average levels, as he pointed out some people will cape up for anything and everything. I would say they are overly empathetic.
Horizon is the most diverse game I ever played and I love the fact that they don't shove it down my throat, it's done naturally! No eye rolling moments, it's perfect, believable and welcome game in today's climate.
Lol I literally didn't know that could be seen as a negative quality.
Please don't take this the wrong way but given the last year of politics and everything I think we should be able to say that "average" levels of empathy are clearly not enough.
Colin has been trying to rile people up on Twitter for a long time. This tweet was the most obvious bait. I really don't like the purposely antagonize people stuff that he is trying. I mean what's the point? make people hate you? make it harder for Kinda Funny fans to discuss their content on Social Media? It just seems pointless. I get that he think it's fun but it seems this joke has played itself.