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[mclem]

Emulation is a grey issue, but so long as you own the original game you're entitled to emulate it. If you still have copies of Donkey Kong Country and Super Mario World in your SNES collection you can run those ROMS in the PS3 port of the famous SNES9X emulator. The emulators themselves aren't illegal.

It's a bit semantic, but that's technically not correct. You're entitled to emulate *your own copy* of the game you own. Technically, that means you're obliged to dump it yourself.

 

[ymmv]

I'm one of those people in the middle ground on this. Gamers should be able to homebrew their consoles, but Sony should be able to ban them from PSN. That seems to make the most sense to me.

In that scenario pirates can still play every single player game for free, because there's no way you can get homebrew without enabling piracy as well. Free games is what probably the majority of the folks who hacked their PS3 are interested in, not a few open source emulators that are already available on every device with a CPU and a display.

I'd rather go without homebrew than have piracy on the PS3.

 

[kamorra]

i also thought that games weren't requiring the new firmware until after the USB dongle hack was released? again, they were only responding to more hacking- which again i feel like was just to protect their own ecosystem that they want to keep separate from the enthusiasts

Games require newer firmwares all the time. It wasn't a response to more hacking.

 

[androvsky]

1. Back in January 2010, hacker George Hotz hacked the PS3. He opened the door for homemade code on the PS3 with an exploit which relied on the PS3's OtherOS function.

One of these days, someone's going to get this part right correct in an article. OtherOS already allowed for homemade code, that was the entire point of it.

In that scenario pirates can still play every single player game for free, because there's no way you can get homebrew without enabling piracy as well. Free games is what probably the majority of the folks who hacked their PS3 are interested in, not a few open source emulators that are already available on every device with a CPU and a display.

That's exactly what the PS3 had for three years until this whole mess started. And of course, nobody cared about homebrew until piracy or easier XBMC was thrown into the equation.

 

[Tonedeff]

In that scenario pirates can still play every single player game for free, because there's no way you can get homebrew without enabling piracy as well. Free games is what probably the majority of the folks who hacked their PS3 are interested in, not a few open source emulators that are already available on every device with a CPU and a display.

I'd rather go without homebrew than have piracy on the PS3.

I don't consider the possibility of piracy to be sufficient enough to ban homebrew.

 

[The Super Bob]

Regardless of where you stand in this debate can we all agree that the GIF is amazing?

Pretty decent write up, nice to see both sides of the argument being put across.

 

[V_Arnold]

In that scenario pirates can still play every single player game for free, because there's no way you can get homebrew without enabling piracy as well. Free games is what probably the majority of the folks who hacked their PS3 are interested in, not a few open source emulators that are already available on every device with a CPU and a display.

I'd rather go without homebrew than have piracy on the PS3.

Exactly. You can use your pc, you can hook it to the HDTV and the comfy couch, you can even use PS3 controllers for playing those games.

 

[I NEED SCISSORS]

Sony's removal of OtherOS was really stupid for one reason that I feel a lot of people miss - they had already removed it from Slim units (no one cared), which meant every console going forward would have been fine if OtherOS was hacked. The PS3 was going to be hacked sooner or later, so they may as well have *allowed* it to be limited to fat units rather than encourage the scene to develop an exploit for all units.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Exactly. You can use your pc, you can hook it to the HDTV and the comfy couch, you can even use PS3 controllers for playing those games.

Why should I have to do that? How about this, you stop using your PS3 for internet, music and TV streaming, netflix. After all, you can do this with your PC.

 

[kamorra]

In that scenario pirates can still play every single player game for free, because there's no way you can get homebrew without enabling piracy as well. Free games is what probably the majority of the folks who hacked their PS3 are interested in, not a few open source emulators that are already available on every device with a CPU and a display.

I'd rather go without homebrew than have piracy on the PS3.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=14838623&postcount=41

 

[Commanche Raisin Toast]

Well, turning the choice into "you have to buy another system" doesn't really sound fair to me. If you bought a PS3 because it had two features you cared for, you should reasonably expect it to keep having both without having to buy another console later down the line.

yeah that's another thing. but i think if a feature is/can/could be used to harm other users then it should be either removed or cut off from the normal users. they noticed that a feature not being used by many of their users wasn't as secure as they thought, and could be used against security, and even noticed people actively trying to do so. (insert typical reply here pointing out how not everyone is a 'bad' hacker) a nifty feature was being abused, and had to be removed for the greater good.

sony didn't have to even go as far as saying that using otherOS was fine, but they did. they could have said everyone upgrade now "or else!" like nazi's or something but they just wanted to separate those users from normal users. i still don't see what's so bad about that.

so i feel like sony was actually trying to be decent and find some sort of middle ground in the best interest of the wide majority of their users but people got riled up and are painting everything black and white.

 

[kamorra]

sony didn't have to even go as far as saying that using otherOS was fine, but they did. they could have said everyone upgrade now "or else!" like nazi's or something but they just wanted to separate those users from normal users. i still don't see what's so bad about that.

so i feel like sony was actually trying to be decent and find some sort of middle ground in the best interest of the wide majority of their users but people got riled up and are painting everything black and white.

Again, you had to choose between new games and otheros. There is nothing decent about it.

 

[Tonedeff]

Exactly. You can use your pc, you can hook it to the HDTV and the comfy couch, you can even use PS3 controllers for playing those games.

With my current setup, it would be easier to do this with the PS3 than my PC. It's already under my TV, it can play HD video and Blu-ray, which my PC can't, and it can play PS3 games, which my PC can't. Of course an XMBC like app would have to come around first to make this all possible, but that can't be too far off

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

yeah that's another thing. but i think if a feature is/can/could be used to harm other users then it should be either removed or cut off from the normal users. they noticed that a feature not being used by many of their users wasn't as secure as they thought, and could be used against security, and even noticed people actively trying to do so. (insert typical reply here pointing out how not everyone is a 'bad' hacker) a nifty feature was being abused, and had to be removed for the greater good.

sony didn't have to even go as far as saying that using otherOS was fine, but they did. they could have said everyone upgrade now "or else!" like nazi's or something but they just wanted to separate those users from normal users. i still don't see what's so bad about that.

so i feel like sony was actually trying to be decent and find some sort of middle ground in the best interest of the wide majority of their users but people got riled up and are painting everything black and white.

You really don't get it. It was a feature they advertised as valuable. A reason that contributed to many people purchasing the system. They didn't market it as 'OtherOS OR games'. They advertised it as a packaged deal. Why should person A have to choose whether they want to play the newest games or still have access to a feature ADVERTISED by Sony? I mean seriously?

 

[ThanksVision]

Why can't everyone who buys the system just play the games and have fun?

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Why can't everyone who buys the system just play the games and have fun?

You're right. So you should stop using Netflix, the web browser, streaming music, streaming videos, playing blu ray movies. Just play the games. Right?

 

[ThanksVision]

You're right. So you should stop using Netflix, the web browser, streaming music, streaming videos, playing blu ray movies. Just play the games. Right?

LovingSteam
Douchebag Prophet
(Today, 03:25 PM)
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[Gravijah]

LovingSteam
Douchebag Prophet
(Today, 03:25 PM)
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[ClovingWestbrook]

LovingSteam
Douchebag Prophet
(Today, 03:25 PM)
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I see you prefer to not respond to the content of my post. Understandably so. It shows how hypocritical your point is. You are asking people to not hack the system and just play the games while I would bet you use the system for much more than just playing games. You use the system for the features it offers you. This is exactly what others did with OtherOS.

 

[ThanksVision]

I see you prefer to not respond to the content of my post. Understandably so. It shows how hypocritical your point is. You are asking people to not hack the system and just play the games while I would bet you use the system for much more than just playing games. You use the system for the features it offers you. This is exactly what others did with OtherOS.

I just don't understand why people feel the need to hack the system. Like your post mentioned, a library of games, the ability to play blu-rays, netflix, etc. How is that not enough for people?

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

I just don't understand why people feel the need to hack the system. Like your post mentioned, a library of games, the ability to play blu-rays, netflix, etc. How is that not enough for people?

So now you include blu-rays and netflix? Why shouldn't you just play the games and ignore the other features? There are many reasons people hack systems-

1) The challenge
2) To see how it was engineered
3) To add features that are not currently available
4) Piracy
5) Fame

The last 2 reasons are annoying and unfortunate. The first 3 are positive and many times benefit the consumer more than anybody else. Remove region restrictions on games. Enables features that increase the value (not monetary mind you) of the system.

Have you ever used Xbox Media Player? If you haven't, go download it onto your PC. That was a direct result of people hacking the original Xbox. The internet radio that Sony added for the PSP? Guess who implemented it first? Hackers. See a game in Japan you want to play on your Wii or DS? Guess what, you will need that regions console to play it UNLESS you hack your DS in which case you can remove region restrictions and thereby play the game. These are just a few examples of the benefits that come to you and I from hackers.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

SON OF A BITCH! :lol :lol

 

[jim-jam bongs]

One thing which I don't quite understand from the Sony supporters camp is why it's not Sony's responsibility to protect them online when they're using Sony's network. It reminds me of a recent case where the details of thousands of Vodafone Australia customers were stolen and put on torrent sites. The supreme court determined that Vodafone had failed in their duty to protect their customers because their security was flawed. How is this different?

For the record I fully support disallowing hacked consoles on the network, I just don't agree with how Sony has gone about doing it thus far.

 

[Tonedeff]

I just don't understand why people feel the need to hack the system. Like your post mentioned, a library of games, the ability to play blu-rays, netflix, etc. How is that not enough for people?

Because, in my opinion, just like the PSP, the PS3 can be so much more than it is. If Sony were willing to bring out it's full potential (a true media center, installing games, region free, OtherOs, apps, etc.), then that would be fine enough. But they will never do that. I know it sounds kinda cheesy, but that's what I believe.

So the better question is why wouldn't you seek to improve the functionality of your system if you could?

 

[H_Prestige]

For the record I fully support disallowing hacked consoles on the network, I just don't agree with how Sony has gone about doing it thus far.

What's wrong with how they are banning CFW users? It's the same way MS does it and they even gave a clear warning for CFW users to go back to OFW if they don't want to get banned.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

What's wrong with how they are banning CFW users? It's the same way MS does it and they even gave a clear warning for CFW users to go back to OFW if they don't want to get banned.

I think he means bringing out the lawyers against the hackers.

 

[V_Arnold]

You're right. So you should stop using Netflix, the web browser, streaming music, streaming videos, playing blu ray movies. Just play the games. Right?

You DO know that these features are available to you and others (emulation) require hacking a system. Right?

 

[Commanche Raisin Toast]

Again, you had to choose between new games and otheros. There is nothing decent about it.

if after it's release they discovered it was harmful to other users, then yes, it sure as hell is decent. again, i'm trying to be PC here and say that it's a matter of opinion and perspective.

You really don't get it. It was a feature they advertised as valuable. A reason that contributed to many people purchasing the system. They didn't market it as 'OtherOS OR games'. They advertised it as a packaged deal. Why should person A have to choose whether they want to play the newest games or still have access to a feature ADVERTISED by Sony? I mean seriously?

no, actually i DO get it, but you prefer putting words in my mouth to change my position. i understand all these things you are saying. i never said it was advertised as otherOS or games. read my post. people abused a feature and it was removed.

One thing which I don't quite understand from the Sony supporters camp is why it's not Sony's responsibility to protect them online when they're using Sony's network. It reminds me of a recent case where the details of thousands of Vodafone Australia customers were stolen and put on torrent sites. The supreme court determined that Vodafone had failed in their duty to protect their customers because their security was flawed. How is this different?

For the record I fully support disallowing hacked consoles on the network, I just don't agree with how Sony has gone about doing it thus far.

because it's NOT different. sony is protecting themselves from such a situation by removing otherOS for the sake of the network's security, not just the console itself.

one thing i haven't seen anyone talk about yet is the license agreement. (or at least beyond "i am not given the EULA at bestbuy when buying it so sony has no blah blah blah") with something as serious as hacking and homebrewing, you would think that people would actually read that. was it in there? did it specify hardware, software, or both? if so, does firmware and the OS of a piece of hardware count as software? still waiting to see what people with legal expertise have to say about everything. (no, pachter's not even close)

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

You DO know that these features are available to you and others (emulation) require hacking a system. Right?

You do know that the person I was responding to said we should just enjoy the games. If we should just enjoy the games and nothing else (after all, its a gaming machine apparently) then these other features shouldn't be used by him and those who feel the same way he does. He is using the PS3 for the features it offers, including non gaming applications and yet he doesn't understand why people who want to hack the console aren't just content with playing games?

 

[X26]

One thing which I don't quite understand from the Sony supporters camp is why it's not Sony's responsibility to protect them online when they're using Sony's network. It reminds me of a recent case where the details of thousands of Vodafone Australia customers were stolen and put on torrent sites. The supreme court determined that Vodafone had failed in their duty to protect their customers because their security was flawed. How is this different?

For the record I fully support disallowing hacked consoles on the network, I just don't agree with how Sony has gone about doing it thus far.

It is sony's responsibility, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't go after people who could be costing them money through illegal acitvities*

*enabling and promoting piracy/online hacks of PS3 games (If that is a legitimate concern atleast)

 

[Commanche Raisin Toast]

You do know that the person I was responding to said we should just enjoy the games. If we should just enjoy the games and nothing else (after all, its a gaming machine apparently) then these other features shouldn't be used by him and those who feel the same way he does. He is using the PS3 for the features it offers, including non gaming applications and yet he doesn't understand why people who want to hack the console aren't just content with playing games?

his post said that?

i think his comment was an innocent 'let's just enjoy the PS3 for what it is, play games, and have a good time' and not a 'let's only play games and additional features are pointless' troll.

everything in this thread seems to be pushed to one extreme or the other.

 

[phosphor112]

Well anyone with a bit of common sense knows Sony ain't got shit here.

This isn't so clear cut and dry.

 

[Seraphinianus]

he American Digital Millenium Copyright Act makes it illegal for a user to circumvent a company's protection on their electronic devices, but an exception was made for phones after Apple's case.

interesting. i'm with the courts on this one, but what was the exception? (feel free to use legalese) Seems like the DMCA was made to stop exactly that from happening.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

because it's NOT different. sony is protecting themselves from such a situation by removing otherOS for the sake of the network's security, not just the console itself.

So they are removing a feature which their customers paid for because they failed at basic cryptography? That seems strange to me. It would be like Vodafone, upon discovering that there was a severe security flaw which was putting customer data at risk, decided to remove internet account-management because they were worried that they hadn't sufficiently protected access to and from their internal databases. In other words, punishing the customer for their ineptitude.

I think he means bringing out the lawyers against the hackers

Exactly.

 

[Jocchan]

I'm one of those people in the middle ground on this. Gamers should be able to homebrew their consoles, but Sony should be able to ban them from PSN. That seems to make the most sense to me.

I have a similar position. Everyone should be able to benefit from the features added by homebrew or jailbreaking as long as they are not doing anything illegal, or ruining anyone else's experience.

A Wii with a Homebrew Channel can do much more than one without it.
A DS with a flashcard can do much more than one without it.
A jailbroken iPhone can do much more than a non-jailbroken one.

There's no reason why things should be different for the PS3.

Again, I believe it's pirates and cheaters who should be punished, banned and locked out. Legit users who do no harm to anyone, or the hackers who allow them to get more use out of their own devices without doing harm to anyone, as douchey and immature as they can be themselves, shouldn't be the ones paying the price for what other people do with those tools, and for the hackers who do enable piracy, cheating or allow people to spoof the console IDs of other innocent players.

I believe that anyone should only pay the consequences for their own actions, not for what others do. [shitty analogy time]If you keep a knife in your house, you shouldn't get jailed just because someone else will use it to stab people.[/shitty analogy time] As long as fair and legitimate uses exist for something, it should be allowed.

Unfortunately, I know it's hard to differentiate legit users from pirates/cheaters, and Sony has every right to ban them from their service. I'd be much happier, though, if a distinction could be made in some way.

Regardless of where you stand in this debate can we all agree that the GIF is amazing?

Definitely. Best thing to come out of any of these threads. Kudos!

Pretty decent write up, nice to see both sides of the argument being put across.

I agree. Surprisingly good.
Both "camps" have reasonable arguments. Too bad either side seems to be too stubborn to accept the ones their opposers have.

I just don't understand why people feel the need to hack the system. Like your post mentioned, a library of games, the ability to play blu-rays, netflix, etc. How is that not enough for people?

I don't understand why people watch *random sport X I don't care for* instead of *random sport Y I care for*.

This doesn't mean I can't recognize *random sport X I don't care for* may have a value I to them that just doesn't appeal to me, and doesn't mean I should downplay its importance just because I don't care for it.

If *random sport X I don't care for* is important to someone, more power to them. I don't need to start caring myself.

 

[Littlegator]

If i a buy a car, i do whatever i want with it. If it doesn't comply with road rules, then i don't use the car on the road.

If i buy a console, i do whatever i want with it. If it doesn't comply with online gaming rules, then i don't use the console online.

If you steal a legal part off a car and put it on your car for use, it is still legal to drive the car on the road.

 

[Gravijah]

If you steal a legal part off a car and put it on your car for use, it is still legal to drive the car on the road.

But you would get in trouble if the part was found on your car, making it illegal.

 

[_Bro]

Someone mentioned how they believe everyone is against hackers going online, or something close to it, and it got me thinking.

I'm all for it. Maybe I won't like it but all that means, to me, is that something needs to be done by the company for server protection. I can play games on my PC and go into VAC protected rooms and never encounter hackers. It's awesome.

The benefits of this, if Sony, and all consoles, stopped resisting, is people using their PS3s as dedicated servers that run custom maps and gametypes.

But then again, that'd require server lists and not some playlist with gametypes that I may or may not want to play.

 

[Littlegator]

But you would get in trouble if the part was found on your car, making it illegal.

You would get in trouble for stealing the part, not driving the car. The car is still allowed to drive on the roads freely.

 

[Slavik81]

One thing which I don't quite understand from the Sony supporters camp is why it's not Sony's responsibility to protect them online when they're using Sony's network. It reminds me of a recent case where the details of thousands of Vodafone Australia customers were stolen and put on torrent sites. The supreme court determined that Vodafone had failed in their duty to protect their customers because their security was flawed. How is this different?

For the record I fully support disallowing hacked consoles on the network, I just don't agree with how Sony has gone about doing it thus far.

Protect them online from what?

I'm not sure I see anyone arguing that Sony should not be protecting people from having their personal information stolen and posted on torrent sites.

 

[phosphor112]

lolololol at these comparisons. Come on guys, software is in a whole different league than all these other comparisons. That's why IP rights and copyright protection is so complicated these days, because you have to take into account for software being licensed, and obtained.

 

[H_Prestige]

You would get in trouble for stealing the part, not driving the car. The car is still allowed to drive on the roads freely.

But there is no stealing involved here. His analogy was fine.

The users don't get to decide what the "road rules" are on PSN. That's Sony's playground and they can make whatever rules they want and change them at any time. If they say they don't allow anything but up to date, OFW logged into PSN and will ban anyone who doesn't comply, then that is their prerogative.

 

[Slavik81]

If you steal a legal part off a car and put it on your car for use, it is still legal to drive the car on the road.

Faulty analogy. This is more like using a part that is not street-legal.

Regardless of whether you legally acquired the part, or whether you stole it, you are not allowed to drive on the road with it.

Nor is using custom firmware anything like stealing.

 

[spwolf]

Protect them online from what?

I'm not sure I see anyone arguing that Sony should not be protecting people from having their personal information stolen and posted on torrent sites.

i think he meant that sony should protect your PS3 even if you install CFW...

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

i think he meant that sony should protect your PS3 even if you install CFW...

No. He is saying its Sonys job to protect multiplayer from being ruined by cheaters. It isnt those using CFW's job to cease hacking or coming up with apps that can be used by cheaters.

 

[mr_nothin]

One of the main reasons there's a back n forth argument between the "pro-sony" & "pro-geohotz" camps is because there's a debate between whether #1 on the timeline happened first or if #2 on the timeline happened first.

I've always recalled Geohot "hacking" the PS3 before Sony took action. (hacking as in implementing a hello world app)

 

[FINALFANTASYDOG]

It's a bit semantic, but that's technically not correct. You're entitled to emulate *your own copy* of the game you own. Technically, that means you're obliged to dump it yourself.

And techinally aren't game cartridges considered a forum of copy protection? thus doing the dumping in almost all cases = violating dmca , thus making emulation illegal in basically any situation?

 

[FINALFANTASYDOG]

Not sure which thread to put this in, so sticking it in here:


http://game.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/interview/20110225_429530.html

An incredibly frank interview, in Japanese, with the head of Sony computer Entertainment Asia, lots of interesting things about heading into untapped un-economically developed countries, but What I found most interesting was what he said about the hacking of PS3.

Quotes, regarding the hack

編：　穴をふさぐ努力をするよりは新型機を投入すべきとお考えですか？

安田氏：　ふさぐ努力はこれからもずっと全力でしていきます。ただ、それと同時に次の事も考えなければならないと思いますよ。

Q: So you think, Rather then trying to fill up holes - (Regarding ps3 hacks) you should invest in the next generation?

A: Of course we are going to continue putting effort into filling the holes, However at the same time we must think about what the the next move is.

_____

安田氏" アジアの市場をご覧 になるとわかると思いますが、流通されているソフトってPS3がほとんどですよ。PS3 はコピーに強いという証拠、他はコピーの影響が大きいです。並行業者でも一生懸命運ん でいるのはPS3のソフトですよね。他にないんだもの

A: If you take a look at the Asian market I belive you can see, the majority of software that is being distributed is ps3 software. This is the evidence that ps3 is strong against copying, other manufactures copying has a large impact. We even seewith importers, They work their hearts out to bring in is ps3 software, not the other platforms software.

I find this intriguing because there seems to be the disillusion amongst some of the radicals on this forum, that the system being hacked, yes that will help sony.

Here we have a Sony exec coming out and saying he thinks one of the prime reasons they do so well in Asia and competitors don't is because the lack of the ps3 being hacked. If you read the full interview you also get the hint of now that the ps3 has been hacked, Asia is more of a lost cause for this generation.

 

[TylDurden]

I'm glad it was included that Hotz started it all. I'm quite sick of news blogs blogging that GeoHot only cracked the PS3 to return OtherOS into the system when he was cracking it long before it was removed and that it was removed because of his cracking efforts. Everyone seems to forget that. I'm probably on the CFW side of the fence but I refuse to wear blinders.

 

[Oni Jazar]

The article starts out ok but doesn't mention anything about 3.56 FW? That's a big omission.