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[ziran]

*edit - this topic covers PS3 online info from harrison, rather than a clear outline of sony's online strategy.

next gen

the 'episodic' bit [bold] worries me. if kitase said a ffvii remake using the tech demo visuals would take a team of 300, 5 years, this proposed episodic nature of games could be the future of rpgs and aaa titles in general. and what about cost? $60-$80 per aaa game then download chapters at a cost of $5-$10?!?! i can't imagine publishers giving this kind of downloadable content free.

Phil Harrison, Game Developers Conference Europe, London.

..."We want to provide an open platform wherever possible,"..."We want to create a platform on which publishers can exploit their services. We are happy for publishers to form their own commercial relationships directly with the consumer."...

..."We should begin to move away from putting 20 hours of content onto a disk and move towards a more episodic model. Games should become more like a soap opera, not in terms of plot but in terms of how the experience changes dynamically over time."...

..."The idea that people can graze content is fundamental to the PS3 experience. There is an unstoppable trend towards digital downloading of content."...

..."maybe we will see a button on your TiVo that downloads content straight to your PSP."...

..."As platform holder we have a responsibility to invest in games that are a little esoteric in order to grow the market"...

sounds like a continuation and expansion of the ps2's online plan.

 

[swander]

sounds like a continuation and expansion of the ps2's online plan.

uh-oh :lol

If Sony just did what Microsoft did they could have made several million dollars with ease. As is Xbox has had the jump on the PS2 with online FPSs, online sports games etc. etc.

Instead of all this marketplace episodic crap that MS have been showing us maybe Sony should do the groundwork first and, you know, have a good infrastrcuture for PLAYING GAMES.

 

[Forsete]

As long as its free.

 

[Wax Free Vanilla]

As long as its free.

Yup, fuck paying for online access. All I want is free online play with GT5, Motorstorm, F1 and other racing game. And maybe online shooters.

 

[Andrew2]

This is what I love about Sony, they're always open about thier platform in every avenue thus allowing for a third-party to improve on the basic features set out. Such a thing is good for both developers and consumers alike.

 

[gofreak]

Glad that next-gen is covering GDCE, there are a few interesting looking presentations there. Transcripts would be awesome but I'll take what I can get

 

[Tellaerin]

Argh, no... enough of this 'episodic', 'downloadable', 'supplementary content' crap already! Just give me a damn game that's complete, on disc(s), in a package with a manual, for a flat fee, and I'll gladly keep giving you my money! >_<

 

[Andy787]

This is why Sony is the market leader. They make a platform for the third parties and provide the audience for them to sell to, and regardless of innovation that Nintendo may bring to the table, or software that Microsoft may bring to the table, at the end of the day Sony's platform is where the table is essentially wide enough to accept any kind of experience and everyone (albeit with exceptions) has the greatest chance to reach an audience.

That said, I don't think this philosophy translates entirely to the online space, though. They do need to take some initiative, and lay down some common, standard essentials that should be followed with every online experience, such as a single, all-encompassing user name and friends list (Which doesn't have to be exclusive at all. Let third parties do things like Steam or EA Nation or PlayOnline however they like, but make sure that they also have those common essentials.).

Also, I fucking hate the idea of episodic content, or the suggestion that we should be moving away from the idea of a single boxed experience. And it's not that I am against digital media, or downloadable content, or whatever. I mean, I've got a filled iPod and love it, and Half-Life 2 is one of my favorite games of all time, but when it comes to the industry taking a stance, I want my media to remain a physical product, whether I can transfer it to a digital medium or add to it with digital content or not. But Sony said the exact same thing with digital content before the PS2 launched, iirc, so I hope they similarly forget about this idea.

 

[hadareud]

it's funny. When MS talked about microtransactions people where not quite as positive. When Sony does the replies are "this is why I love Sony" ...

 

[Redbeard]

How is a developer or publisher putting their content on the Live marketplace for people to download any different from what Sony does? You don't have to subscribe anymore to download content. Does MS charge transaction fees or something?

 

[123rl]

I have no objection to paying for an online service. Xbox Live with mates (or good players) is THE best thing to happen to gaming in the last decade, IMHO. If PS3 online is as good then I'll gladly pay £30-£40 for it annually

What I refuse to do though is episodic gaming via downloads. There's no way I'm supporting that

 

[DarienA]

it's funny. When MS talked about microtransactions people where not quite as positive. When Sony does the replies are "this is why I love Sony" ...

There are 7 replies above yours:

1 is instead a call for an insfrastructure
2 don't care just want a free infrastructure
2 are supportive
1 doesn't apply it's more of a reference to GDCE coverage
1 is negative

So... what f'n thread you reading? That certainly doesn't sound like a full thread of support for Sony to me.

EDIT:

Of the two below yours 1 is another negative and 1 is a comparison.

So again what f'n thread are you reading?

 

[Dr_Cogent]

Sony could learn a thing or two from Microsoft. Letting publishers run wild with no clear coherent model that they have to adhere to blows.

How do you coordinate with friends online? Will it be possible to send invites like you can in Xbox Live? Can you send messages?

Leaving it all up to the publishers - yeah - great idea.

Let's see how EA handles it. :lol

 

[hadareud]

There are 7 replies above yours:

1 is instead a call for an insfrastructure
2 don't care just want a free infrastructure
2 are supportive
1 doesn't apply it's more of a reference to GDCE coverage
1 is negative

So... what f'n thread you reading? That certainly doesn't sound like a full thread of support for Sony to me.

EDIT:

Of the two below yours 1 is another negative and 1 is a comparison.

So again what f'n thread are you reading?

First of all, I didn't make any accusations here. Second, I only find the different forms of perceptions people have when it comes to MS/Sony. HDD being another example.

 

[urk]

The quote seems to point towards Sony creating the platform and then giving some control over to developers. It is pretty ambiguous, but I just can't see Sony leaving their online model completely in the hands of third parties.

Like Cogent just pointed out, the Live model has a great number of things going for it, most notably, cross game communication. It's also nice to have a single fee that encompasses every game instead of having to shell out money for every gaming experience seperately.

You can bet that Sony has the platform in the works. The question is how far they will go allowing developers to control pricing for individual games and how (and if) they will design the network to work cross game. I can't see them skipping over this second area. It just makes too much sense for online gaming.

 

[thorns]

They make a platform for the third parties and provide the audience for them to sell to, and regardless of innovation that Nintendo may bring to the table, or software that Microsoft may bring to the table, at the end of the day Sony's platform is where the table is essentially wide enough to accept any kind of experience and everyone (albeit with exceptions) has the greatest chance to reach an audience.

That sounds more like what Microsoft does, to make a unified, standardized platform where third parties can sell stuff. This is how Windows got so big. What Sony is doing is more like expecting everyone to bring their own table..

 

[DarienA]

First of all, I didn't make any accusations here. Second, I only find the different forms of perceptions people have when it comes to MS/Sony. HDD being another example.

You didn't make any accusations?

Let's see...

it's funny. When MS talked about microtransactions people where not quite as positive.

Ok that looks like you are saying when MS talks about microtrans... people were not happy.

When Sony does the replies are "this is why I love Sony" ...

Ok that looks like you are saying that when Sony talks about microtrans people are more happy.

Sure as hell seems like an accusation that people are more happy about the same product because it's coming from Sony to me.

Personally I think as we see more and more broadband penetration in various gaming countries this whole let the developers run where they want to stuff becomes more and more of a bad idea.

 

[PhatSaqs]

Sounds like Sony just wants to be different for the sake of being different.
Just swallow your pride and copy XBL.

 

[human5892]

..."We should begin to move away from putting 20 hours of content onto a disk and move towards a more episodic model."

Go for it!

Meanwhile, I will begin to move away from buying any fucking game that does this, unless the initial disk is proporionately priced. If I'm getting a fraction of a game, I should be paying a fraction of the price.

 

[Spider_Jerusalem]

"We want to provide an open platform wherever possible,"..."We want to create a platform on which publishers can exploit their services. We are happy for publishers to form their own commercial relationships directly with the consumer."

I don't know. This could be a way to do it, but without a common infrastrucutre you're losing some opportunities. It's like, for a software developer, providing its downloads on its own site (PS3) or using a common environment like Download.com (X360 Marketplace). With the first approach you've got the maximum freedom, but you've got too all the hassles related to it: maintaining your download servers, managing users downloads issues, managing payment transactions and so on. In the other way you're much more restricted, but you find everything already done for you, it's simply fire-and-forget. From a developer point of view, I'd say this second approach is more convenient.

From the users point of view, having a common envirenoment in which you can browse through all the contents available, be notified when something new comes up and so on, I'd say it's easier, and you don't have to browse through tens of different systems and interfaces, each one with its own authentication policies and so on...

But well, we still have to see how sony will handle all this. They still could maintain an open environment and providing some common services for standardizing the main processes.

 

[Juice]

I'm ALL for episodic content, but the companies have to realize that the pricing model has to be just right for people to catch on.

Either the game is $50 with a bunch of free content down the pike, or the initial episode is FREE and each additional episode is a small microtransaction. Pay-as-you-play is the future, but only as soon as they figure out how to market it and not sound like misers.

Still sound like misers, therefore probably won't work anytime soon.

But it is the future... ten years down the road, we'll be downloading all our games in chunks. Or something.

 

[Dr_Cogent]

I'm ALL for episodic content, but the companies have to realize that the pricing model has to be just right for people to catch on.

Either the game is $50 with a bunch of free content down the pike, or the initial episode is FREE and each additional episode is a small microtransaction. Pay-as-you-play is the future, but only as soon as they figure out how to market it and not sound like misers.

Still sound like misers, therefore probably won't work anytime soon.

But it is the future... ten years down the road, we'll be downloading all our games in chunks. Or something.

I'm all for NO episodic content. What if I want to take my game over to someone elses house?

Games should stay the way they are, like DVD movies. I buy it once, I have it forever.

 

[hadareud]

You didn't make any accusations?

Let's see...

Ok that looks like you are saying when MS talks about microtrans... people were not happy.


Ok that looks like you are saying that when Sony talks about microtrans people are more happy.

Sure as hell seems like an accusation that people are more happy about the same product because it's coming from Sony to me.

Personally I think as we see more and more broadband penetration in various gaming countries this whole let the developers run where they want to stuff becomes more and more of a bad idea.

I don't feel like arguing about this. I didn't intend to accuse anyone about something, especially considering that I don't think of this as a negative thing.

And yes, I do believe that peoples perceptions are probably more positive towards Sony over comparable things - then again, this is just my perception.

 

[Die Squirrel Die]

It'd be interesting to see how episodic gaming would be accepted. People are used to episodic delivery of content on TV, but that doesn't necessarily mean it'd translate into how they want their gaming experience. I'm not saying that some types of games (especially narrative driven ones) wouldn't work well episodically, but to me there'd still be too much of a difference between waiting a week for a weekly installment of 24, or waiting for the next chapter of 24: The Game.

What would be the time frame for downloadable content as well. Weekly would probably be too quick (for the developers). Monthly maybe? I really don't think you could get away with the current content download model of whenever the hell the developers has it ready/feels like it. For episodic content to really take off, I think it would have to be put out on a freqent and regular basis.

 

[DarienA]

The episodic content idea created Shen Mue... and what was that RPG that never made it to the US that I think was also episodic? Can't remember the title...

And yet each generation they try again....

 

[Dr_Cogent]

It'd be interesting to see how episodic gaming would be accepted. People are used to episodic delivery of content on TV, but that doesn't necessarily mean it'd translate into how they want their gaming experience.

The thing is, people don't pay per episode on TV.

 

[Die Squirrel Die]

The episodic content idea created Shen Mue... and what was that RPG that never made it to the US that I think was also episodic? Can't remember the title...

And yet each generation they try again....

The difference is they are talking about an online distribution model. Going back to the TV analogy, it'd be like having to go to the store every week to pick up the next episode of a show. If that was the way TV was done people would probably watch a hell of a lot less of it.

The thing is, people don't pay per episode on TV.

I wasn't talking about the payment issue. I was trying to create a model for how episodic gaming would be accepted in mainstream gaming, which I think is another issue, on top of payment structures, that episodic gaming brings up.

 

[urk]

It's the cell phone model of online gaming:

Help the Prince conlude his quest!

Five

More

Levels

Available

Online

Press X to purchase now!

 

[Ghost]

I prefer MS' model to be honest, just makes it a lot easier to find people you want to play with in my experience. It's smart of Sony to go in a different direction, it would take a hell of a lot of work from them to offer something that can match Live like for like.

Episodic content is all well and good in theory but if chapters are 3-6 months apart like SiN will be i think it will fall on its ass, most single player games i play i use for at most a month afterwards then never touch again, whether ive completed them or not. Playing 6 hours of a game then waiting 3 months to play the next 6 is just not gonna wash with me.

game is $50 with a bunch of free content down the pike

I dont want that model, if i pay $50 for a game I dont want to have to wait 12 months before i can play it all the way through.

the initial episode is FREE and each additional episode is a small microtransaction.

Cant see publishers going for that one, although maybe if you replace demos with first episodes...that would be awesome from the consumer point of view.

Firstly because you try the game before you pay anything, and secondly you do away with Game Demos which have become totally useless because they never reflect the final product. If the 'demo' was actually the first episode of the game and developers had about a month afterwards to finish episode 2, then they would be much better quality wise and a much better guides for consumers.

 

[DarienA]

The difference is they are talking about an online distribution model. Going back to the TV analogy, it'd be like having to go to the store every week to pick up the next episode of a show. If that was the way TV was done people would probably watch a hell of a lot less of it.

Yup... but are online gaming #'s on XBL or Sony's everbody on their own online system large enough to support something like this? I'm not sure yet.. one factor of course is the genre of the game...

 

[jarrod]

and what was that RPG that never made it to the US that I think was also episodic? Can't remember the title...

It was Capcom's El Dorado Gate on Dreamcast. Started out as a Saturn project actually.

 

[DarienA]

It was Capcom's El Dorado Gate on Dreamcast. Started out as a Saturn project actually.

Excellent thanks Jarrod... how many eps of that actually made it out?

 

[Spider_Jerusalem]

The episodic content idea created Shen Mue... and what was that RPG that never made it to the US that I think was also episodic? Can't remember the title...

Don't know about any RPGs, but Fahrenheit/Indigo Prophecy was firstly created with an episodic model in mind.

 

[jarrod]

Excellent thanks Jarrod... how many eps of that actually made it out?

Seven releases, surprisingly. I think each had 2-4 chapters.

 

[DarienA]

Seven releases, surprisingly. I think each had 2-4 chapters.

Really? Wow I had no idea it made it that far....

 

[Beer Monkey]

Every online console should have this basic functionality:

- Single, universal gamertag that is consistent across all publishers and titles.
- Ability to see what game your friends are playing
- Send and receive invites, in-game
- Central, independent chat lobby for general discussion and game planning

If Sony can't deliver that, they aren't serious about providing a quality online gaming experience. They'll drive me to buy all cross-platform online titles for 360, regardless of whether they are prettier on PS3.

Sony, swallow your pride and clone Live.

Regarding episodic gaming, Bone will be delivered in $20, 4-6 hour episodes (average gaming time) for the PC. They'd like to do a console version, but I assumed that it would be compiled from multiple episodes.

 

[Spider_Jerusalem]

Every online console should have this basic functionality:

- Single, universal gamertag that is consistent across all publishers and titles.
- Ability to see what game your friends are playing
- Send and receive invites, in-game
- Central, independent chat lobby for general discussion and game planning

I definitely agree. After what MS has shown with XBL, I can't think of a next-gen console withouth those online features.

 

[h0l211]

More GDCE coverage at Gamasutra:

http://www.gamasutra.com/gdceurope2005/index.shtml

...including a few more details from the keynote:

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=6379

"Harrison admitted that the circumstances which caused the PSP's delayed launch in Europe were 'obviously not optimal', but pointed out that the delay had allowed for both the Web-compatible 2.0 PSP software and a greater range of games to debut. He also referred to Sony's recent litigation against companies breaking a ban on importing the PSP as 'something for the lawyers', not wishing to comment further."

"He also revealed, after being quizzed on the extra downloadable content for Wipeout Pure, that Sony is intending to start charging for PSP downloads next year, presumably (though not explicitly stated) of extra level and game content for existing PSP games, and consumers would pay per download, with the right to download the item again in the future from Sony's servers as necessary."

 

[Lunar Aura]

this thread is exactly what online gaming on ps2 is and what ps3 will be like. those that dont know better wont care, and the rest will just be a jumbled mess.

 

[DarienA]

Every online console should have this basic functionality:

- Single, universal gamertag that is consistent across all publishers and titles.
[1]- Ability to see what game your friends are playing
- Send and receive invites, in-game
[2]- Central, independent chat lobby for general discussion and game planning

IMO
1-while nice is not essential for basic funtionality... the ability to see that the user is online would be the basic version.
same with 2... while it's nice I don't see it as key to 'basic' functionality.

 

[Il Comodino]

this thread is exactly what online gaming on ps2 is and what ps3 will be like. those that dont know better wont care, and the rest will just be a jumbled mess.

quote

 

[kaching]

Espousing an open platform doesn't imply that there won't be an common infrastructure for basic services.

 

[User 406]

FREE ONLINE PLAY FOREVA!

I have no problem with the microtransaction thing, any developer that abuses it just won't get my money. There's a lot of fish in the sea.

 

[Spider_Jerusalem]

this thread is exactly what online gaming on ps2 is and what ps3 will be like. those that dont know better wont care, and the rest will just go on XBL

Fixed

 

[urk]

FREE ONLINE PLAY FOREVA!

I have no problem with the microtransaction thing, any developer that abuses it just won't get my money. There's a lot of fish in the sea.

Something tells me that if Sony isn't willing to aid in the creation of each dev's online platform, then nothing is going to be free. Teams aren't going to build an online presence and then let you have access to it for nothing.

 

[hukasmokincaterpillar]

Whats with all these misleading topic titles lately. Vague insinuating quotes from Phil Harrison are not what Id call an f'n outline. I was expecting some meat with them potatoes.

 

[Andy787]

Whats with all these misleading topic titles lately. Vague insinuating quotes from Phil Harrison are not what Id call an f'n outline. I was expecting some meat with them potatoes.

Yeah, really.

Anyway, is anyone else surprisingly interested in PS2 online this year like I am? I really didn't care for anything released on it in the past years, and I've only really played like 20 minutes of Socom 2 on PS2 online, but I'm actually really psyched for MGS3 Subsistence, Socom 3, and, strangely enough, FFVII: Dirge of Cerberus.

 

[Lionheart]

Something tells me that if Sony isn't willing to aid in the creation of each dev's online platform, then nothing is going to be free. Teams aren't going to build an online presence and then let you have access to it for nothing.

Why not? All devs do it on PC as well: they either develop their own matchmaking service or they just license GameSpy and in both cases online P2P gaming is always free in PC games.

 

[mrklaw]

There isn't really much of LIVE thats essential IMO. You could do a lot with two things, while keeping things open the way Sony likes it.

Friends lists. Have a common standard in the SDKs, so that I can add someone to my friends list from any app. Store the friends list on my memory stick (or online, doesn't matter), and let any app access it. All thats doing is matching IP addresses

Netcode. Take the best examples - eg the SOCOM stuff and make that available to developers to encourage pushing the envelope of whats doable online.

 

[Angst]

Every online console should have this basic functionality:

- Single, universal gamertag that is consistent across all publishers and titles. - Yes, would definitely be nice

- Ability to see what game your friends are playing - Not really necessary, but would be cool.

- Send and receive invites, in-game I'm not sure about this one. If you've got a lot of online friends, coudn't that mean that your online game would be interupted with your friends nagging about you joining them for a session of Madden?

- Central, independent chat lobby for general discussion and game planning Without a keyboard that would be sort of pointless. Voice chat in a lobby would be even worse IMHO.