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[rs7k]

http://www.theglobeandmail.ca/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050427.wxquepoll27/BNStory/National/

Quite ironic that the program Ottawa used to try and promote federalism in the province backfired in such a way. In other news, the NDP has now allied themselves with the Liberals, and some people are talking about a Conservative-Bloc Québécois alliance. It's inevitable, but think about it... :lol

 

[Kifimbo]

It doesn't really matter. The Quebec Liberal party is in power for 3 more years. And it's not a separatist party, but rather a federalist one. In 30 months, so many things can change and people forget very quickly.

 

[Instigator]

The poll deals with right now and not how the electorate felt in the last campaign (which got to Liberals in power).

The Quebec Liberals are also seen as the worst administration of the province in decades. They can try to change that perception and win reelection, but the odds are not in their favor.

 

[Fatghost]

http://www.theglobeandmail.ca/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050427.wxquepoll27/BNStory/National/

Quite ironic that the program Ottawa used to STEAL OUR MONEYbackfired in such a way. In other news, the NDP has now allied themselves with the Liberals, and some people are talking about a Conservative-Bloc Québécois alliance. It's inevitable, but think about it... :lol

Fixed.

 

[6.8]

The Quebec Liberals are also seen as the worst administration of the province in decades. They can try to change that perception and win reelection, but the odds are not in their favor.

Too bad that what's bolded is the biggest part of that problem.

 

[Instigator]

The current Quebec Liberals are a bunch of wishy washy baffoons who are certainly not ready to govern, unlike what their campaign slogan used to claim.

Happy now?

 

[Kifimbo]

The current Quebec Liberals are a bunch of wishy washy baffoons who are certainly not ready to govern, unlike what their campaign slogan used to claim.

Happy now?

You're right. But they have the power until 2008, that means no referendum before 2010.

 

[Azih]

It's bizzare the poll question is "A new poll shows 54 per cent of decided voters would support sovereignty in a referendum that offered an economic and political partnership with the rest of Canada"

What the hey? What if the rest of Canada says no to a special economic and political partnership? that's hardly something for Quebec to decide.

 

[shuri]

There's been a lot of pro-svereignty propaganda onthe french canadian tv channels lately, it's really weird to see it being pushed like that.

 

[Instigator]

It's bizzare the poll question is "A new poll shows 54 per cent of decided voters would support sovereignty in a referendum that offered an economic and political partnership with the rest of Canada"

What the hey? What if the rest of Canada says no to a special economic and political partnership? that's hardly something for Quebec to decide.

Where have you been for the last 30 years?

 

[dem]

I'm about sick of the french morons. Let them go.. fuck them. Theyre like a 12 yr old boy sucking on his mommys tit.

Nothing but a drain on the rest of Canada.

 

[6.8]

I'm about sick of the french morons. Let them go.. fuck them. Theyre like a 12 yr old boy sucking on his mommys tit.

Nothing but a drain on the rest of Canada.

You're a generalizing idiot. Do you want to kick NB and Ontario out of canada too, because they also have an important French population? The problem doesn't have to do with the frenchness, more to do with people that want more power to the provinces, and a certain Albertan federal party agrees with those principles.

It's bizzare the poll question is "A new poll shows 54 per cent of decided voters would support sovereignty in a referendum that offered an economic and political partnership with the rest of Canada"

What the hey? What if the rest of Canada says no to a special economic and political partnership? that's hardly something for Quebec to decide.

I agree. It's the biggest fallacy in the sovergnity plan. They want their independence, but! And it's also assuming far too much collaboration from the Canadian government. It's as though their plan wants to have the best of canada, while not having the worst. Sounds good, really. But it's so unpractical and improbable that it's downright laughable.

 

[Instigator]

I'm about sick of the french morons. Let them go.. fuck them. Theyre like a 12 yr old boy sucking on his mommys tit.

Nothing but a drain on the rest of Canada.

You might like Reed Scowen...

http://www.rafeonline.com/archive/province/19991008.shtml

Reed Scowen is an interesting cat – a three term member of the Quebec National Assembly, an economic adviser to Robert Bourassa and a senior Quebec public servant, he’s written a book called Time To Say Goodbye (The Case For Getting Quebec Out Of Canada) published by McClelland & Stewart at $19.95 in paperback. The title says it all – Mr Scowen thinks that the "Rest of Canada" ought to kiss Quebec goodbye.

The reasons are what one might suspect. Although Mr Scowen intends on staying in Quebec until he dies (he’s reserved a plot for that purpose) he thinks that Quebec will simply continue to be a nuisance, threatening to quit on the one hand while accepting ever increasing bribes with the other.

Those sick to death of Quebec and all the problems it causes will delight in this book. The more common reaction, I daresay, especially from the Central Canadian establishment and its acolytes, will be horror. Just when, it will be said, we’re about to put Quebec separatism behind us and get on with building a nation along comes this jerk and rouses dormant passions.

After the initial shock of the book, most people called him an idiot...

 

[rs7k]

I'm about sick of the french morons. Let them go.. fuck them. Theyre like a 12 yr old boy sucking on his mommys tit.

Nothing but a drain on the rest of Canada.

Perhaps you don't realize that separation is probably worse for Canada than it is for Quebec. If Quebec leaves, what will prevent the West from doing the same?

 

[dem]

Perhaps you don't realize that separation is probably worse for Canada than it is for Quebec. If Quebec leaves, what will prevent the West from doing the same?

Wtf do I care? The west is the only region with a legit reason for leaving... and would be perfectly fine without the rest of Canada.

 

[rs7k]

Wtf do I care? The west is the only region with a legit reason for leaving... and would be perfectly fine without the rest of Canada.

Lay off the caffeine buddy... you were the one crying about being sick of these french morons trying to separate. Do you live in Western Canada?

 

[dem]

Lay off the caffeine buddy... you were the one crying about being sick of these french morons trying to separate. Do you live in Western Canada?

The Quebecois are annoying because its an empty threat. Theyre being overcoddled as is... and they keep asking for MORE MORE MORE OR WE WILL LEAVE. Its like a child threatening to run away. Its fucking embarrassing. What happened last time this seperatist bullshit heated up? Quebec economy in the SHITTER.

And if Quebec does take off.. they certainly cant just take off with the whole of Quebec how it stands now. A lot of regions are clearly against seperating. Northern.. Gatineau... whatever.

 

[6.8]

Actually, the Quebec economy's going down the shitter because of the over-socialist policies, something the actual government is trying to adjust.

 

[Azih]

The Quebec economy beneifts greatly from not only equalisation payments, but also the Canadian name that backs it up. I get the impression that quite a few Quebeckers have the impression that the rest of Canada leeches off of Quebec and that is just extremely laughable.

 

[Instigator]

I agree. It's the biggest fallacy in the sovergnity plan. They want their independence, but! And it's also assuming far too much collaboration from the Canadian government. It's as though their plan wants to have the best of canada, while not having the worst. Sounds good, really. But it's so unpractical and improbable that it's downright laughable.

Actually, it makes sense and this is not rocket science.

You have about 30-35% hardcore separatists in the province, people dedicated and people ready to go vote whenever they are asked to. But as strong óf a bloc as they are, they can't secede with their number through a referendum.

What do they do? They water down their main objective to get a broader consensus. Some form of collaboration plan with the rest Canada is offered, to get those sitting on the fence in and even people who would call themselves federalists. Why would some federalists side with seperatists? Because through this watered down plan, they get what they want: change. Support for this type of sovereignty plan wavers and changes all the time, but events like the sponsorship scandal just gets some people here pissed off and they might support the plan, if only for a while.

What makes them think the ROC would go along after an Yes vote? They assume cooler heads will prevail and after the instability of the referendum, most would choose to solve this issue quickly in order to limit the damage on the economy on both sides so some deal would be reached.

What if the ROC refuses to go along? Possible, but in this case, hardcore sovereignists get what the ultimately want: legitimacy to go for full independence, something they couldn't get initially.

 

[darscot]

I so tired of this it's not even funny. As a Canadian I see Canada from sea to shining sea. If Quebec actually wants out and the people their vote to split then fuck them let them split. However that would be the end. No visitor visa no entry into Canada. No planes in our air space, no money, basically fuck all. This empty threat is such bullshit the think it's rough in Canada, then get the fuck out. See how fast the US consumes them.

 

[6.8]

Instigator, as I said, it's unpractical. It might work as a political strategy, but it won't happen, and if anyone is foolish enough to believe it, well they're fools. They'll most likely end up getting something they didn't want in the first place.

darscot: What's the fucking threat? Have you seen people actually mobilising for idenpendence? What about politicians in power? Or are you using a fucking poll as mobilisation? :lol :lol :lol

 

[darscot]

The threat has been lingering for years since before the FLQ crisis for fuck sakes.

 

[Instigator]

Instigator, as I said, it's unpractical. It might work as a political strategy, but it won't happen, and if anyone is foolish enough to believe it, well they're fools. They'll most likely end up getting something they didn't want in the first place.

Separatists get their way either way.

It's those who are not separatists yet are voting Yes that might not know what they're in for.

 

[explodet]

On the other bit of news, looks like Harper and Duceppe are ready to bring down the minority government after the recent news about the deal between the NDP and the Liberals.

Can't wait to go to the polls again.

 

[6.8]

darscot: You speak of it as though it was used daily to screw the rest of Canada up.

Instigator, I'm not denying that at all. They're just using the fact that a good chunk of people are completely oblivious. It's a dirty stratagem, which will anger more people than it should in the long run, which is what I meant.

 

[Instigator]

They choose to jump into the abyss. Screw them.

 

[6.8]

Considering most of my family resides in Quebec, I'd rather not do that.

 

[Instigator]

They can just partition their West Island ghetto. :lol

 

[6.8]

Uh, I'm french. Most of them live in Quebec city (most of them aren't separatist either).

 

[Pochacco]

This matter should be decided by a game of hockey.
Or a snowball fight!

 

[6.8]

Actually, that's a pretty neat idea. It would be fun, for a change.

 

[Shinobi]

I so tired of this it's not even funny. As a Canadian I see Canada from sea to shining sea. If Quebec actually wants out and the people their vote to split then fuck them let them split. However that would be the end. No visitor visa no entry into Canada. No planes in our air space, no money, basically fuck all. This empty threat is such bullshit the think it's rough in Canada, then get the fuck out. See how fast the US consumes them.

Amen. As one person said years ago, I'll go down to the Ontario/Quebec border to help dig the moat and push 'em out to sea. I got sick of hearing about this shit a decade ago, and I'm no mood to hear about it again. Even the overtalked gay marriage debate is less tiring.

Having said that, the fact that these latest poll results comes as a result of the Fiberals and their fucking "HEY LET'S KEEP QUEBEC IN CANADA BY SPONSORING EVERYTHING er by the way let's slip a few bucks into our own pockets YEEHAW OH CANADA!!" bullshit is too rich for words. I thought the Conservatives were the party that were going to seperate the country. :lol Guess Martin will find a way to spin this as well...hopefully he won't look as pathetic as he did a week ago.

In completely unrelated but still Canadian news, Chris Cuthbert got picked up by TSN to be the primary voice for their CFL games. Good for him.

 

[TheOMan]

As I think was stated before, part of the problem here is that "sovereignty" has not been defined for the majority of the people that will be voting in this potential referendum. I'm thinking they believe that "sovereignty" means autonomous within Canada and not actually "separating" or seceding. Gonna be a rude awakening for some people. Oh, and I'm definitely sick and tired of hearing about this. What a mess :/

Edit: Plus, if they decide to bail, they take their share of the national debt along with them.

 

[Azih]

So if I'm getting this right, Quebec is made up of roughly 1/3rd soveriegnist, 1/3rd federalist and 1/3rd dumbass?

 

[PhlegmMaster]

Quebec sovereignty support at 54% following AdScam

Eh, it won't last. And even if there was a vote today I'm certain we wouldn't separate from Canada; I'm sure a lot of people answered "YES!" to the poll just to show their dislike for the federal liberals.

The Quebec Liberals are also seen as the worst administration of the province in decades. They can try to change that perception and win reelection, but the odds are not in their favor.

Don't get me started. Quebecois are such morons when it comes to this. I can't believe everyone is buying Landry's (the Parti Quebecois leader) sucking-up. He left us with a disastrous financial situation and the Quebec liberal party has been struggling ever since their election to rebuild our finances. Sure, they're a bit clumsy about it, especially about communicating their intentions to the population, but at least they don't let opinion polls dictate their decisions.
And practically everyone in the province is convinced Charest is an evil boogieman who wants to cut social services funding for no reason. He's CUTTING FUNDING BECAUSE OUR PROVINCE'S FINANCES ARE GOING DOWN THE DRAIN, YOU FUCKWITS!!!!

Ahem. Anyway, we won't seperate from Canada, no need to worry.

 

[Boogie]

So if I'm getting this right, Quebec is made up of roughly 1/3rd soveriegnist, 1/3rd federalist and 1/3rd dumbass?

Wouldn't that technically make it 2/3rds dumbass? ;P

 

[SickBoy]

If anyone here borrows money at a non-fixed rate, the threat of Quebec separation will also hit you in the pocketbook. As a student I took out a line of credit right around the time of the first referendum, and there was a very real threat of that being the stupidest move of my life had they voted to separate, because interest rates were ready to soar.

 

[Shinobi]

Edit: Plus, if they decide to bail, they take their share of the national debt along with them.

All the more reason to hope for seperation. :lol

Look, if they stay, cool. I don't see them leaving for a good long while anyway, if ever. But I'm not gonna get myself worked up trying to save the country or whatever. If enough people in a given territory honestly feel like they want to make a go of it of their own, then God bless 'em.

 

[6.8]

I really don't see why people see the sponsorship scandal is an issue of Separatism (outside Quebec) and Federalism (inside Quebec). To me it's an issue of corruption, the cause in that definitely isn't the issue, nor the problem regarding that scandal.

 

[Shinobi]

The Fiberals set the program up as a way to keep the country united (in their little heads if nothing else). And the poll results appear to be a byproduct of the scandal. Obviously the program being corrupt as fuck isn't a Quebec/seperation thing, but it's the official reason for the setup of the program and the possible after effects that link the issues.

 

[Drozmight]

What's the deal with all this Mexican political talk?

 

[6.8]

Obviously the program being corrupt as fuck isn't a Quebec/seperation thing, but it's the official reason for the setup of the program and the possible after effects that link the issues.

I still don't see why people are bitching about that. Sure it might make the wasted money even more wasted, but it still baffles me that many people are more angry at the whole federalist/quebec thing than the corruption thing, which is what's actually worrisome (and causing me a hell of a headache as to whom I will vote for in the upcoming election).

 

[Instigator]

I really don't see why people see the sponsorship scandal is an issue of Separatism (outside Quebec) and Federalism (inside Quebec). To me it's an issue of corruption, the cause in that definitely isn't the issue, nor the problem regarding that scandal.

If it were any other program, it probably would be just a case of corruption.

But since the federal money targeted solely for this single province was grossly misused, it already created an initial backlash against Quebec from the rest of Canada, even though it was a program many Quebecers didn't like nor want. So it reflects badly on this province for no good reason (it is basically the Liberal Party that is to blame, not the province) and it is seen as unwanted federal intrusion by many Quebec nationalists (and now can be used as a seperatist godsend against federalism, because of the scandal).

You can not deny the politics of this scandal.

 

[6.8]

I'm not denying the politics, I just wonder why people make such a big irrational deal about them. But I'm sure that you can assume from reading my posts that I'm not much into politics.

 

[maharg]

"it already created an initial backlash against Quebec from the rest of Canada"

It did? I must have missed that

 

[Instigator]

Politics are often irrational. Just pay attention to the various looney bills being voted on in the US Congress, as often reported in these forums.

That's what makes politics fun.

 

[6.8]

That's what makes politics fun.

I was thinking quite the opposite.

 

[Instigator]

"it already created an initial backlash against Quebec from the rest of Canada"

It did? I must have missed that

You should have. The Gomery commision may have shifted the anger towards the Liberals, but at first, it was just seen as another example of ungrateful Quebec bleeding the federal government for money again.

Latent Quebec bashing in the ROC can not be completely discarted either

 

[Drozmight]

I say we band together and create the American Liberation Front. Together we will crush both the US and Canadian governments and form one enormous country... minus the south... we'll shower them with Agent Orange.