-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Racism isn't cool.
- Thread starter fart
- Start date
- Status
He posted a racial epithet in the hate thread. I am now going to quote a rule from the hate thread:
I would hardly say that blanket censorship is the issue here. Racial epithets are not particularly substantive expressions of free speech.
Honestly, if he had posted it outside of the hate thread, he probably would not have been banned. Also note that ohamsie warned him of the slip-up, and he had plenty of time to edit it.
I would hardly say that blanket censorship is the issue here. Racial epithets are not particularly substantive expressions of free speech.
Is it really an offensive term? I'd be curious to hear the opinion of some Italian/Italian-Americans. Seems like even if it was a derogatory term at one point or another, it's become an accepted term in this day and age. Kinda like honkey. That doesn't offend me at all even if it's a disparaging term (or at least was at one point).
Drinky Crow
Banned
Wah wah, "censorship". Quit acting like it's always a bad thing, you sobby teenaged bitches.
Meier said:
It's subjective and based on context. Like how many African-Americans feel its ok to call each other Niggers, but if it is a white guy, he's a racist, even if he used it with the same context/intent as a black person.
I find the term 'Jap' very offensive, and I've raised the issue in GAF before, but many people like to use Jap as a shorthand for Japan and they don't think it's offensive.
So I don't know how to define racist words are, because they tend to be overused on one hand by one segment of the population, with the other segment feeling very sensitive about any hint of racism, even if there is none intended in the use of a word.
but r u 2 legit?
the word carries its history with it. i would claim that cooption like this is a form of defiance. when the original intent can't be erased, the marginalized group can really only adopt and attempt to redefine. but, no matter what you do, the original intent is there. it's simply more evident when its usage can't be justified as cooption and redefinition. this poses a problem, especially if the redefition is successful, since every usage will carry with it both the original intent and the redefinition.
rather than try to navigate the semantic minefield, imo it makes more sense to just express yourself more clearly in language that can't be misconstrued.
Allow me to impart my personal perspective, being of Italian heritage. This is reposted from OA:
...and...
I'm not an authority or anything, but from my experience living in Brooklyn (guido mecca
), and as an Italian, this is how it's perceived. If brooklyngooner is around, he'll likely tell you the same thing.
Loki said:Btw, if he was banned for using the term "guido", well, as an Italian, that's a term Italians use all the time when talking about other Italians. "Guido" is not really racist at all-- it usually denotes a streetwise dude with slicked back hair wearing a muscle shirt while driving around in his Iroc-Z.
"Guinea" is (one of) the racist/bad terms for Italians. Not "guido," as far as I've heard it employed.
...and...
Loki said:
I'm not an authority or anything, but from my experience living in Brooklyn (guido mecca
), and as an Italian, this is how it's perceived. If brooklyngooner is around, he'll likely tell you the same thing.fancie shouldn't have been banned, and i believe loki has some thoughts on this subject? if he doesn't, i'll just post what he posted at OA concerning this since he's italian/american.
i also don't think it's fair for a "mod"(dragona) that never participates in the forum to throw out the banstick because of an IRC conversation.
edit: beaten by loki. :lol
i also don't think it's fair for a "mod"(dragona) that never participates in the forum to throw out the banstick because of an IRC conversation.
edit: beaten by loki. :lol
Late Stage Marxist
Member
No one wants to be called guido.
Yeah, looks like Loki and Lil Dice hit it on the head. I didnt think guido was really an offensive term, even to Italians. I know people get pissed off at EBW's musical "trolling," and maybe he should be banned for that (I wouldnt suggest it), but being banned for using the term guido seems a bit overboard.
trippingmartian said:
Of course not; it's certainly derogatory in some sense. The question is, "is it racist?"; the answer to that question, in my considered opinion based on experience, is "no."
EDIT: It's more akin to being called a "geek/nerd", which is based on one's behavior/lifestyle, than any sort of racial epithet.
BobbyRobby
Member
I'm more Italian than I am anything else, and the word doesn't bother me. 'Guido' is just a funny sounding Italian name. Its like calling any German person Hansel. Its not a slur.
CabbageRed
Member
For what it is worth, when I was growing up, "Guido" was closer to "Brother" than anything else. I don't think I've ever run into a situation where it was used in an offensive manner. It also seems to be a fairly common first name. :-/
Drinky Crow
Banned
it's not the word itself, you disingenuous spankers, it's the INTENT.
CabbageRed
Member
Disco Stu said:
But is even that racist? It sounds more like an attack on a person's character. I could call someone a "bum" or "gang-banger" without it being racist.
Disco Stu said:
Exactly. It refers to a certain type of Italian, and that type is singled out based on observable behaviors (as you noted). It's not racist simply because it cannot rightly be applied-- based on its own definition-- to all ethnic Italians. It's an insult based on actions/lifestyle, like "nerd," or "geek," or "musclehead." Not anything like "spic," or "wop."
I'm saying this as an Italian American who grew up in guido central, mind you.
Late Stage Marxist
Member
raceLil' Dice said:
1. A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics.
2. A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution: the German race.
3. A genealogical line; a lineage.
BobbyRobby
Member
Drinky Crow said:
Well, from what he has said, I don't think he intended it to be racist.
EBW said:
So if its not the word itself, he shouldn't really be banned.
I don't want to mire this thread with any more of that hateful contagion of a thread next door, but frankly, EBW is plain offensive on the whole, "guido" or no, so this thread neither raises any question of legitimacy regarding the ban to me nor is able to further lower my opinion of him.
We have more important things to discuss, like what Tom Cruise has been doing for the last 12 hours.
We have more important things to discuss, like what Tom Cruise has been doing for the last 12 hours.
Loki said:Exactly. It refers to a certain type of Italian, and that type is singled out based on observable behaviors (as you noted). It's not racist simply because it cannot rightly be applied-- based on its own definition-- to all ethnic Italians. It's an insult based on actions/lifestyle, like "nerd," or "geek," or "musclehead." Not anything like "spic," or "wop."
I'm saying this as an Italian American who grew up in guido central, mind you.
I disagree wholeheartedly. It's an unflattering stereotype that can be applied to anyone of Italian descent. I don't care enough to debate the matter extensively, but it's certainly not a phrase that's only specifically applied -- or relegated -- to a certain portion of a community.
Cerebral Palsy
Banned
Easily offended people suck balls. Lets all cry about the internet why don't we.
Late Stage Marxist
Member
I just find this thread all kinds of funny because I got banned for something similar. I called GTA:SA* "ghetto" and therefore I was racist. :lol
* I'm actually a fan of the game now that it has been released.
* I'm actually a fan of the game now that it has been released.
Lil' Dice said:
Well, obviously.
I was just using "racist" in the colloquial sense that everyone else was. Doug, there's no doubt his intent was to disparage her, but the question is, "on what basis?" Based on your comment I can't tell if you think it was an instance of racism (by way of its intent rather than its strict meaning as here explained), or if you're disagreeing with those calling it racism (by arguing that his intent in using it was not racist).
Disco Stu said:
Unless you're an Italian-American, then I have to respectfully disagree (yes, I'm pulling my ethnic trump card on you
). I grew up in a community which was 90% Italian, and you simply cannot call just any old Italian guy a "guido," based on its very definition. Italians use it all the time amongst themselves to describe a particular type of Italian (and even then often jokingly, as the word has taken on a more lighthearted connotation over the years).I agree that it's generally a derogatory word, but the question was whether or not it fell outside of the bounds set by EviLore for the thread, one of which was "no racist remarks."
EDIT: Any person who knows what the word "guido" signifies, and has heard it employed in various contexts, would laugh if someone were to call an Italian like me (to use an example) a "guido," since I'm nothing of the sort. They'd think the person was crazy, or didn't know what he was talking about; they/I wouldn't be offended that it was said to me, since it doesn't apply. However, if someone were to call me a "guinea" or a "wop" (slurs which are applicable to the entire ethnic group, and consequently are "racist" as it's being defined here), then that would be a bad thing.
Loki said:Unless you're an Italian-American, then I have to respectfully disagree (yes, I'm pulling my ethnic trump card on you
I agree that it's generally a derogatory word, but the question was whether or not it fell outside of the bounds set by EviLore for the thread, one of which was "no racist remarks."
EDIT: Any person who knows what the word "guido" signifies, and has heard it employed in various contexts, would laugh if someone were to call an Italian like me (to use an example) a "guido," since I'm nothing of the sort. However, if someone were to call me a "guinea" or a "wop" (slurs which are applicable to the entire ethnic group, and consequently are "racist" as it's being defined here), then that would be a bad thing.
The trump card thing won't work. I suspect we live in the same general area and probably have similar ancestry.
And I think the initial jumping-on point for me in this thread was whether or not guido is a derogatory term. And I'm glad you can agree with me on that point, just as I can agree with you that its context and meaning changes when applied as a term of endearment or affection by two people of Italian background.
- Status