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[StoOgE]

Something most people don't have a clue about.. after the fall of the Ottoman empire in WWI, Britain and France were given mandates over newly formed countries in the middle east, chiefly Iraq, Palestine (Transjordan was further cut out of this), Syria and Lebbenon. During this period democratically elected leadership was the norm, and when the French and British pulled out of the region after WWII (for a number of reasons, but generally speaking of their own accord) they left in place a very modern, very democratic political ideology (the modernization began during the tanzimat reforms of the Ottoman empire, and can be argued was the undoing of that country).. which was then flatly rejected across the board by pretty much everyone in that part of the world, and they went back to some form of monarchy/dictatorship that they had before... and if you believe Clevland or Gelvin (two historians that focus on the region) the chief reasons behind this are as follows:

1) The democratic system was seen as forced upon them by a foreign country.
2) They did not view democracy as being compatible with Islam (for the most part the ulama's have held power in most Muslim societies).
3) Somehow the person that was elected to lead always had the backing of the French and British ( :cough: Karzai :cough: ) and rarely would popular figures actually get elected.

I just wonder if all the people that think setting up a 'free' country in the middle east is going to make that region stable actually know that the entire region was a democracy about 50 years ago before they got rid of that system.. and they got rid of it with popular support, not through despotism.

 

[gofreak]

*lather, rinse, repeat*

The cycle of imperialist history continues..

 

[Chopin Trusty Balls]

I see parallels to Germany,it was a Democracy until Hitler got elected and prohphibed the other parties,and todays Russia is on its way down the same road,not exacly the same but same direction.

I am not sure if its ok to force democracy down someones throat,even if you see it as a pill.

 

[gofreak]

I see parallels to Germany,it was a Democracy until Hitler got elected and prohphibed the other parties,and todays Russia is on its way down the same road,not exacly the same but same direction.

I am not sure if its ok to force democracy down someones throat,even if you see it as a pill.

Germany, culturally, is very different from Iraq, though. It's possibly more accurate to draw parallels with Iraq's own previous history than that of a completely different country on almost every level.

 

[norinrad21]

Afghanistan was a democracy too but the people prefered an Islam state, then the Soviets invaded.

How is that comparable to Germany? I suppose we should compare Iraq to Japan too right?

 

[Chopin Trusty Balls]

If not Germany what else would you compare it to? Japan wasnt a democracy before it was forced upon them were they?

I am German,Democracy was forced upon Germany after they lost the first world war as democratic elections was most important part of the peace deal,declared unavoidable by the US,but people felt democracy was something foreign and weak,something that allies forced them to accept to hurt them.
Only after WW2, Germany was in ruins and people,albeit slowly, realized democracy wasnt all that bad.
To rephrase a german saying,those who cant learn,must feel.

 

[norinrad21]

Germany is culturally different, how would they force democracy on an islamic country? we all know that won't work.


Maybe if they nuke Iraq to the ground and everything else was in ruins, then the people might give up on Islam and accept democracy right?

 

[Chopin Trusty Balls]

Germany is culturally different, how would they force democracy on an islamic country? we all know that won't work.


Maybe if they nuke Iraq to the ground and everything else was in ruins, then the people might give up on Islam and accept democracy right?

My point is you cant force Democracy on a Country,people have to find thier own way to it.

 

[gofreak]

If not Germany what else would you compare it to?

lol, you don't get it. We're comparing it to the same country. It's been tried before in Iraq, and failed. I think comparing Iraq to Iraq is *slightly* more reliable than Iraq to Germany. This ain't at all comparable to post-WWII, imo.

 

[Cool]

My point is you cant force Democracy on a Country,people have to find thier own way to it.

I agree with this user. You can't force a type of government on another nation. Everything going on in Iraq is bullshit. Forcing them to have a democracy is horrible.

The United States isn't going to just magically make a peaceful middle-east. WE LUV U GEORGEY BUSH U MADE A SUCCESSFUL DEMOCRACY IN IRAQ AND NOW BECUZ OF U WE WAN BE JUSS LIKE THEM AND BE TOTALLY PEACEFUL TEH WORLD IS SO NICE AND THERE IS RAINBOWS AND HONEY POTS EVERYWHERE, THNK U NOW U TOOK ALL OF OUR OIL LOL (BUT THAS OK) BECUZ NOW WE'RE HAPPY AND HAVE A DEMOCRACY JUSS LIKE AMERICA. MEANWHILEL ALL OF TEH AMERICANZ LOST THEIR JOBS, HEALTHCARE, TOLD BY THEIR OWN PRESIDENT NOT TO GET A FLUSHOT.

And this topic re-enstates that bullshitology by saying that Iraq has already been a democratic state and failed, and yet we think we can successfully establish successful democracy there now.

 

[Overseer]

I agree with this user. You can't force a type of government on another nation. Everything going on in Iraq is bullshit. Forcing them to have a democracy is horrible.

The United States isn't going to just magically make a peaceful middle-east. WE LUV U GEORGEY BUSH U MADE A SUCCESSFUL DEMOCRACY IN IRAQ AND NOW BECUZ OF U WE WAN BE JUSS LIKE THEM AND BE TOTALLY PEACEFUL TEH WORLD IS SO NICE AND THERE IS RAINBOWS AND HONEY POTS EVERYWHERE, THNK U NOW U TOOK ALL OF OUR OIL LOL (BUT THAS OK) BECUZ NOW WE'RE HAPPY AND HAVE A DEMOCRACY JUSS LIKE AMERICA. MEANWHILEL ALL OF TEH AMERICANZ LOST THEIR JOBS, HEALTHCARE, TOLD BY THEIR OWN PRESIDENT NOT TO GET A FLUSHOT.

And this topic re-enstates that bullshitology by saying that Iraq has already been a democratic state and failed, and yet we think we can successfully establish successful democracy there now.

ROFL ROFL ROFL

 

[DonasaurusRex]

My point is you cant force Democracy on a Country,people have to find thier own way to it.

....Gee I dunno it seemed to work well in Japan. Maybe you should say you cant force Democracy on a people if you wage war like a pussy. While we did occupy and rebuild japan compare and contrast the level of ass whooping Iraq received when compared with japans. Really isnt all that bad, iraq still has buildings standing structures intact for the most part thanks to "precision strikes". Japan on the other hand didnt have one stone on top of the other. It was in ruin, destitue, there was collateral damage, near oblivion in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. They lost millions in millitary personel there was no underground it was all underground. Occupation works when the wars over beyond a shadow of a doubt.

 

[maharg]

Japan seems to be much more an exception than a demonstration of the rule, so using it in trend forecasting is not exactly fair. Still, there were democratic processes in place in Japan between World War I and World War II, though they met with limited success due to weaknesses in their constitution and the Depression. I think you might find that there was probably not only external pressure for democratization of Japan after WWII, but probably internal as well. It's difficult for any of us who are generally unfamiliar with it to say, though, so I think people should refrain from bringing Japan up as a compelling example of Democracy forced on a nation and being successful.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a major industrialized nation in the world that has not had some form of democracy in place in the last two centuries at some point or another. And using past failures of Democracy in Iraq to demonstrate the unlikelyhood (or some of you dare say impossibility) of democratization is no better than pointing out that the road to democracy in France and England were bloody affairs, or that Germany's democratic failures with Hitler's rise to power indicate that they cannot now be democratic.

 

[StoOgE]

Yes but we arent talking about the last two hundred years, we are talking within the last 50 years... and moreover the entire history of the islamic world has largely been controlled by religious elites and caliphates. There is an entrenched view that the ulama's are better able to make decisions for people than the people are themselves. Sure there are people in the region that are certainly pro-democracy and pro-modernity but that has been the case since the late 1700's.

There is a chance that it could succeed this time, but there are striking similarities to the sort of resistance that the French faced in Syria at the end of the first world war, there are striking similarities to the attitude of the general populace, and the way in which democracy is being forced upon the country is very similar... I just dont see anything that leads me to believe that it would be a success at this point.

As far as Japan, there was success there, but the culture isnt even comparable.. from everything my grandfather told me about occupied Japan there was no anti-american sentiment to speak of, it was more of a complete and total respect of the united states to the point of almost willing submission. Granted he was fairly isolted and had similar experiences in Iran, so take that for what you will