Support NeoGAF

[SlimySnake]

I've no patience in reading Ray Fisher's account of how he was screwed over. But it's always nice to see that hack Whedon get shit on. I've never liked the guy and he always rubbed me the wrong way with his preachy tirades about respecting women when it turns out he was a fucking hypocrite this whole time who cheated on his wife and slept around with women working on his shows.

My best friend would probably be heartbroken though learning all this. She's a big fan of Whedon and his work on Buffy.

I loved the first Avengers and liked Age of Ultron far more than Marvel;s other movies. But man I can never forgive this guy for what he did to Justice League. It is so bad it almost looks like a sabotage.

I dont know how you come into a movie you are tasked with finishing with an ego. I am usually on the side of the directors and I agree that actors should just say the lines, but those actors did not sign on after reading his script. They joined because they liked Snyder and his scripts and his vision. He shouldve understood that and shouldve tried to work with them a little bit more gracefully. The booyah thing is silly but Gal had some of the worst lines in the movie and i can understand her being pissed about it.

There is an insane line in the final version of Justice League where Superman comes and asks Batman what he needs help with. He goes "I know you didnt bring me back just because you like me." And Batman fumbles like a schoolgirl and say " I .... dont.... not". Its embarrassing. The fact that these actors just said those lines instead of fighting the studios makes me have less respect for them. I remember how the Friends actors banded together when they found out David Schwimmer was getting paid the least. The studio initially refused to pay him like everyone else until they threatened to quit and NBC had no choice but to pay them all the same. These six actors shouldve done that. Especially Affleck who had much more clout than the rest.

Same goes for the Game Of thrones cast. They all bitched about the lines and complained to the writers, but no one threatened to quit. Just leave. Have some dignity. Your name is on this awful thing. If it means you are blackballed for the rest of your career, fine. At least you wouldve had your dignity. It's not like any of these guys have been in anything good since anyway.

 

[Reality Czar]

It's a good thing Joss Whedon didn't disparage the good name of Patty Jenkins.

Wonder Woman 1984 did that on it's own.

 

[Great Hair]

Every character in JL were boring tbh. To me, the inclusion of the new scenes to "highlight" Cyborg´s past did absolutely nothing to make him look better or worse.

A whiney character with daddy issues, who´s sole purpose in the film was to "activate" the mother boxes (because they´re made of the same material as him). He had nothing to add, bar the facial expression, the "flashback" and "read the .pdf for Superman´s Ship!"

Heroes Ranking of da JL Order
(action, contribution, cool factor etc.)
1º Superman (yes, even just for those 15mins or so)
2º Wonder Woman or Batman
4º Hungry Guy in Latex (red), collecting sausages
5º Batman´s Spidey Vehicle
6º Cyboring "mimimimi" "eye em a taff maddarfakker!"
7º Alfred
8º Aquaman´s Pectorals
9º Aquaman´s Pullover
10º Aquaman´s Contribution/Arc
11º Williem Defoe

 

[HoodWinked]

As much as I enjoy the dog piling on Whedon due to him being a pathetic weasel person. But he really stepped into a trap when he took over for Snyder.

Once Snyder was out it created a power vacuum and that's when the WB's stupid ass execs took over to put their stink on it and had Whedon make their changes by proxy. Also think about the actors after working with Snyder all those months then having pill head replace him to direct then having to take orders from him. They had a 4hr movie, Cyborg's cut makes sense he had no solo film prospects cutting WW or AM would have been imprudent. Also all the shit that Whedon added was also pushed by execs to make it more like Marvel. Whedon did a shit job but the execs really don't get enough of the blame.

 

[LordCBH]

Whedon sounds like a complete piece of shit. Makes sense considering he’s a male feminist.

 

[GreyHorace]

I loved the first Avengers and liked Age of Ultron far more than Marvel;s other movies. But man I can never forgive this guy for what he did to Justice League. It is so bad it almost looks like a sabotage.

I liked the first Avengers just fine and thought it a fun movie. Whedon's patented snark worked well in that film and while his action scenes weren't that great they were servicable and helped tell the story.

Age of Ultron was awful though. That film is a mess and Whedon turned Ultron, one of the all time great Avengers villains into a joke.

As for the thread topic, I've nothing more to say other than Whedon's cut of Justice League was obviously forcing a goofy tone in the otherwise dark and grim film much in the same tone as the previous Batman v Superman. The result of which is a mess that does have it's moments of so bad it's good moments. Not going to watch it again though or the 4 hour Snyder Cut just to compare.

 

[DESTROYA]

Is Whedon a racist?
Probably not
Is he a piece of garbage SJW asshole who thinks he’s better than everyone else ?
Definitely yes.

He is living of his past glory

 

[SlimySnake]

I liked the first Avengers just fine and thought it a fun movie. Whedon's patented snark worked well in that film and while his action scenes weren't that great they were servicable and helped tell the story.

Age of Ultron was awful though. That film is a mess and Whedon turned Ultron, one of the all time great Avengers villains into a joke.

As for the thread topic, I've nothing more to say other than Whedon's cut of Justice League was obviously forcing a goofy tone in the otherwise dark and grim film much in the same tone as the previous Batman v Superman. The result of which is a mess that does have it's moments of so bad it's good moments. Not going to watch it again though or the 4 hour Snyder Cut just to compare.

id highly recommend the 4 hour snyder cut. its a fantastic comic book movie. way way better than man of steel and bvs.

 

[Punished Miku]

Fisher says he doesn't see the word in itself as an issue, but he thought it played differently in a live-action film than the animated series. And he thought of Black characters in pop culture with defining phrases: Gary Coleman's "Whatchoo talkin' 'bout, Willis?"; Jimmie Walker's "Dy-no-mite!" As no one else in the film had a catchphrase, he says, "It seemed weird to have the only Black character say that."

The part that highlights why being forced to say a phrase felt wrong.

It's undeniable that it's weirdly demeaning. His comparisons are spot on too. Ultimately it is creative differences on a film, but he really comes across sounding like an awful person.

Whedon does come across as an ego-maniac, and sexist. I could easily see him also thinking white people should be the leads. There is sometimes no smoking gun evidence of racism. While it is exaggerated a lot these days, sometimes people actually are like that.

 

[GeorgioCostanzaX]

Racist boomers being shitty bosses. A surprise to be sure.



"Hollywood is bad, abusive, a cult and full of liberal pederasts!"

*Black guy speaks up about racism, abuse, and a toxic work environment in a Hollywood movie*

"VICTIM CULTURE! ENTITLED! Shutup, act, and take the abuse because you have a lot of money! They were just jokes bro."

Don’t get me started I’ve only had 2 boomer bosses and both were trash humans.

 

[99Luffy]

It's a good thing Joss Whedon didn't disparage the good name of Patty Jenkins.

Wonder Woman 1984 did that on it's own.

1984 is what happens when a movie is not SJW enough.
A story about how the most powerful woman in the world still cant get over her boyfriend
A story where she rapes a male character she knows isnt in control of his own body

 

[tsumake]

Fisher’s performance in the Snyder cut was quite good. His character arguably had the most depth in this cut.

I would say it’s the general hypocrisy of people in that industry: say and “believe” something, do something else out of ‘practicality.’ The bigger sin was that these filmmakers and producers don’t have any taste: Snyder’s version of Cyborg had at least had some pathos and Fisher fleshed out the character. The “suggestions” given to Fisher about changing Cyborg were tasteless to the point of being tone deaf. You could say Fisher’s motivation was his ego but I’d argue the ideas of Whedon and company were born out of their blind arrogance and over inflated sense of self worth.

It’s a pity Fisher would play the race card. You can tell he’s a very good actor, and imo he had valid aesthetic arguments. He could have shut up like the other actors, but Whedon’s version of Cyborg is so terrible it would probably stain future films starring the character. Fisher probably didn’t want to continue Whedon’s Cyborg and figured it was worth the press, good and bad, to get Snyder’s version out.

Just look at how John Boyega and the other actors felt about their roles in the sequel trilogy.

 

[tsumake]

As much as I enjoy the dog piling on Whedon due to him being a pathetic weasel person. But he really stepped into a trap when he took over for Snyder.

Once Snyder was out it created a power vacuum and that's when the WB's stupid ass execs took over to put their stink on it and had Whedon make their changes by proxy. Also think about the actors after working with Snyder all those months then having pill head replace him to direct then having to take orders from him. They had a 4hr movie, Cyborg's cut makes sense he had no solo film prospects cutting WW or AM would have been imprudent. Also all the shit that Whedon added was also pushed by execs to make it more like Marvel. Whedon did a shit job but the execs really don't get enough of the blame.

True.

There’s a great comedy by Blake Edwards (Pink Panther) called “S.O.B” that tackles that kind of buck passing people do in Hollywood. Worth a watch.

 

[Jon Neu]

Joss Whedon, the male feminist and Black Lives Matter activist, called a sexist and racist by his own woke peers.

It's beautiful.

 

[bitbydeath]

This is such a non-story, you never see Khary Payton complain about saying Boo Yeah, that’s what the character is most famous for.

 

[Mattdaddy]

"As he left the meeting, Fisher was handed the revised script, which he read twice on the plane back. Gone was Cyborg's traumatic backstory — his relationship with his mother, whose loving scenes with her son were eliminated, as was the accident that killed her and led to his transformation (the material was later restored in the Snyder Cut version of the film that streamed on HBO Max). "It represents that his parents are two genius-level Black people," Fisher says. "We don't see that every day."

I enjoyed the Snyder cut way more overall, but honestly that scene with Cyborg's mom where the principal or whoever was like "Mrs Stone, we had an issue with your son" and she cuts him off and is like "ITS DOCTOR STONE"... it made her look like such an eye rolling bitch I hated her instantly.

Like the principal guy wasn't even being rude. It wasn't like the context of the scene had anything to do with sex or race or who can be doctors. He was just talking casually about her son hacking the school computers. Weird scene to include for a character we are supposed to have empathy for when she dies, cause it was big turn off for me.

 

[Hatemachine]

This is such a non-story, you never see Khary Payton complain about saying Boo Yeah, that’s what the character is most famous for.

So because this guy was willing to play a token black, that means Fisher is obligated to as well?

 

[Fuz]

So because this guy was willing to play a token black, that means Fisher is obligated to as well?

Couldn't he have just... like... refused to take the job?

Is the movie the director's vision or the actors'?

 

[bitbydeath]

So because this guy was willing to play a token black, that means Fisher is obligated to as well?

You throwing around the word token black like it’s your own catch phrase doesn’t mean anything. Why even add the word black if you mean token catch phrase anyway? If anything it only shows your own racial prejudice.

 

[Reality Czar]

It boils down to does he have agency? And I would say yes, he has as much agency as any first-time actor in a mega Hollywood blockbuster. Presumably he read the script before signing the contract to do the movie. These actors are complaining about dialog -- they are reading the screenplays before signing on?

Also any POC actor he knows that Hollywood is racist and the roles available to black actors are limited. Rian Johnson is another example of the male feminist who doesn't care about his black actor and failed to give his character the attention or respect he deserved. The Last Jedi treated the former lead hero like a joke, a coward to be tasered into submission, a silly and pathetic "dummy". Ray Fisher no doubt saw that movie, which came out while they started filming JL, and was heralded to almost near universal acclaim from critics. All the woke crowd fell over themselves lauding the Disney trilogy as it treated Finn like trash. This is the kind of system a black actor has to find himself working in.

That said, Joss was a gun for hire, brought in during an emergency to quickly wrap things up. He had his hands full. There is a reason the director is there. There is a reason the writer is there. There is a reason the actor is there. Each person has a role to play. If they start letting actors rewrite the movie, in the middle of a reshoot with a totally new director, that is just piling even more on top of an already brewing mess.

 

[Hatemachine]

Couldn't he have just... like... refused to take the job?

Is the movie the director's vision or the actors'?

When he took the job it was a completely different script. You seen the Snyder Cut?

 

[Hatemachine]

You throwing around the word token black like it’s your own catch phrase doesn’t mean anything. Why even add the word black if you mean token catch phrase anyway? If anything it only shows your own racial prejudice.

Whedon and the studio turned Cyborg into a token black character in JL2017 and ripped away the tragic backstory of his that was included in ZSJL. Saddling him with a catch phrase "BOO YA" is just one aspect of how they gutted his character.

 

[bitbydeath]

Whedon and the studio turned Cyborg into a token black character in JL2017 and ripped away the tragic backstory of his that was included in ZSJL. Saddling him with a catch phrase "BOO YA" is just one aspect of how they gutted his character.

No they didn’t, black means you’re talking about his race when nothing in the OP indicates it has anything to do with race. You’re just adding it to make it seem like he as an individual was targeted.

 

[Hatemachine]

No they didn’t, black means you’re talking about his race when nothing in the OP indicates it has anything to do with race. You’re just adding it to make it seem like he as an individual was targeted.

It has plenty to do with race. It's clear that at some point Whedon and the studio determined that they didn't want the centerpiece of their film to be the story of an angry young black man on a quest for self-acceptance. So they completely gutted his story, made him completely inconsequential to the plot and tossed him a couple throwaway cheeseball lines. In other words, they made him a token black.

 

[bitbydeath]

It has plenty to do with race. It's clear that at some point Whedon and the studio determined that they didn't want the centerpiece of their film to be the story of an angry young black man on a quest for self-acceptance. So they completely gutted his story, made him completely inconsequential to the plot and tossed him a couple throwaway cheeseball lines. In other words, they made him a token black.

And nothing to do with Cyborg being the least popular character of the bunch and cuts having to be made to reduce the length of the film?

 

[ZehDon]

Any one anecdote on its own would just be a bad day, or an encounter where one could suggest that the pressure of "saving" Justice League left Whedon a little out or sorts. We all have bad days, after all. But when you add it all up together, it paints a picture of Whedon as someone I wouldn't want to spend much time with. The part about him talking up his ability to make Gadot look bad reeks of a stereotypical Hollywood bully; not sure if that makes this more believable or less. In any case, I think it's time to move on from this. Snyder got his cut; we've seen Cyborg as he was intended. There's really not more that can be done.

 

[Hatemachine]

And nothing to do with Cyborg being the least popular character of the bunch and cuts having to be made to reduce the length of the film?

He's the least popular because he's the least known. Seems like you would want to spend more time introducing your audience to a character they are unfamiliar with, like Snyder originally did. They could have made cuts to the movie without completely gutting his story and turning him into a joke.

If ZSJL didn't exist and we had no idea what the original intent of the movie was, I would give Whedon and the studio the benefit of the doubt with a lot of this. But the fact that they went out of their way to completely dismantle any importance Cyborg had to the film and made him a total cheese speaks volumes about the people making those decisions.

 

[tsumake]

It has plenty to do with race. It's clear that at some point Whedon and the studio determined that they didn't want the centerpiece of their film to be the story of an angry young black man on a quest for self-acceptance. So they completely gutted his story, made him completely inconsequential to the plot and tossed him a couple throwaway cheeseball lines. In other words, they made him a token black.

Defining Cyborg as an “angry young black man” is tone deaf. Cyborg’s original arc is very much in the vain of Frankenstein’s monster, as is mentioned by Fisher : a man brings life to something dead and the creation feels resentful and isolated. To call this an “angry young black man” because the character is black can be construed as being.....

 

[Hatemachine]

Defining Cyborg as an “angry young black man” is tone deaf. Cyborg’s original arc is very much in the vain of Frankenstein’s monster, as is mentioned by Fisher : a man brings life to something dead and the creation feels resentful and isolated. To call this an “angry young black man” because the character is black can be construed as being.....

Fisher is on the record saying the same thing. Hollywood has a historical reputation for wanting to portray black characters as non-threatening and commercially safe as possible, particularly in big releases. Just the sidekick along for the ride who occasionally chimes in with some jive talk that would ring funny to white folks, like "BOO YA". In other words, as token blacks.

 

[tsumake]

Fisher is on the record saying the same thing. Hollywood has a historical reputation for wanting to portray black characters as non-threatening and commercially safe as possible, particularly in big releases. Just the sidekick along for the ride who occasionally chimes in with some jive talk that would ring funny to white folks, like "BOO YA". In other words, as token blacks.

That two-faced sentiment, particularly on race, is particular galling. They have no interest in race - they are interested in creating minstrel shows.

 

[bitbydeath]

He's the least popular because he's the least known. Seems like you would want to spend more time introducing your audience to a character they are unfamiliar with, like Snyder originally did. They could have made cuts to the movie without completely gutting his story and turning him into a joke.

If ZSJL didn't exist and we had no idea what the original intent of the movie was, I would give Whedon and the studio the benefit of the doubt with a lot of this. But the fact that they went out of their way to completely dismantle any importance Cyborg had to the film and made him a total cheese speaks volumes about the people making those decisions.

Yes, so he should have his own individual movie to address that and not waste time in a Justice League film that is dedicated to bigger characters. They did the right thing given the circumstances.

 

[Lanrutcon]

Whedon sounds like a complete douche, but this isn't the first time we've heard that.

 

[tsumake]

Whedon sounds like a complete douche, but this isn't the first time we've heard that.

He was an alumnus at my college. On the last day of class, the head of the Film Studies department read his thesis paper to us, as proof of her ‘pull’ within the industry. Fun times.

 

[JeremyEtcetera]

Some people in this thread are actually defending Whedon and shitty work/job tactics just out of spite to make sure that none of their views align with any of Ray's? I'm not saying he's right on all issues(he's allowed to have uninformed takes like the racism one), but the mental gymnastics happening here to disagree with his account of what he witnessed is on another level.

Don't make it so obvious that you're flashing that clover badge over here. Take that shit to /pol/ or /tv/. This ain't it.

 

[JeremyEtcetera]

Yes, so he should have his own individual movie to address that and not waste time in a Justice League film that is dedicated to bigger characters. They did the right thing given the circumstances.

The Snydercut literally was a Cyborg/Flash origin movie. Takes like yours is why we ended up with the original garbage cut.

 

[theclaw135]

I'm not going to lay blame on anyone in particular. The fiasco was across the board. Whedon had less than 6 months to compress Snyder's 2 films worth of material, into a running time less than 2 hours.

 

[bitbydeath]

The Snydercut literally was a Cyborg/Flash origin movie. Takes like yours is why we ended up with the original garbage cut.

Garbage vs long garbage. Either way they both belong in the trash.

 

[bitbydeath]

Some people in this thread are actually defending Whedon and shitty work/job tactics just out of spite to make sure that none of their views align with any of Ray's? I'm not saying he's right on all issues(he's allowed to have uninformed takes like the racism one), but the mental gymnastics happening here to disagree with his account of what he witnessed is on another level.

Don't make it so obvious that you're flashing that clover badge over here. Take that shit to /pol/ or /tv/. This ain't it.

The only bad thing he did in the article was the small portion on Gal at the end but then again those sorts of statements is exactly how the Ray one started which became nothing when his entire problem came out. Basically Ray thought he had more pull than a director.

 

[KyoZz]

Ray Fisher Opens Up About ‘Justice League,’ Joss Whedon and Warners: “I Don’t Believe Some of These People Are Fit for Leadership”

Over the past year, the actor has assailed the filmmaker and studio in harsh-but-cryptic tweets for what he says was racist and inappropriate conduct: "I'm not so indebted to Hollywood that I haven't been willing to put myself out there."

www.hollywoodreporter.com

What you are doing is not cool. You may not like Zack Snyder, Ray Fisher or whatever you want but at least take notice of this:




In fact, you should probably read this:

 

[ManaByte]

What you are doing is not cool.

I posted an article from a MAJOR HOLLYWOOD TRADE that went up today. I'm sorry if it triggered you.

 

[KyoZz]

I posted an article from a MAJOR HOLLYWOOD TRADE that went up today. I'm sorry if it triggered you.

I'm not, it's just sad to see you trying so hard to shit on everything linked to the SnyderVerse. You could present it in a neutral way (like it should for an OT imo) but you HAVE TO put your hate on the OT.

 

[sol_bad]

Ray Fisher sounds like a massive whinger baby.
Just shut up and do your job, you aren't the script writer. And if a movie changes director mid production, that new director is the new god, you do what your boss tells you.

I still don't believe Joss Whedon is exactly an arsehole, I still feel that he was pressured by WB executives and he had to deal with a bunch of babies on set.

 

[ManaByte]

I'm not, it's just sad to see you trying so hard to shit on everything linked to the SnyderVerse. You could present it in a neutral way (like it should for an OT imo) but you HAVE TO put your hate on the OT.

Oh get off it. All I did was quote an article. I didn't write it. If you're not happy with what the author wrote, go harass her on Twitter.

 

[KyoZz]

Oh get off it. All I did was quote an article. I didn't write it. If you're not happy with what the author wrote, go harass her on Twitter.

Still missing my point in the first comment.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

 

[ManaByte]

Still missing my point in the first comment.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

And you completely missed the point made in the OP.

The writer said the character never said the word in the comics. That was false. But you ignored that.

 

[KyoZz]

And you completely missed the point made in the OP.

The writer said the character never said the word in the comics. That was false. But you ignored that.

I'm not. And I personally don't care about that special word. I'm not from the US and I don't know why it's a problem but if Fisher don't want to say it because he find it offensive in any way, fine.

And yes it was written, but for bad reasons. The Autor was forced to add it. Ignoring this on purpose says a lot ...

And the fact that WB didn't want that article to be published should give you a hint that there is a lot more to discover:

This is why I'm quoting you on this. Because it's not only about Ray Fisher but also Gal Gadot, Jeremy Irons, Ben Affleck etc... I'm sure you know the stuff.
We should support them, not downplaying their sayings.

(sry for bad English, not my main language.)

 

[GeorgioCostanzaX]

Fisher’s performance in the Snyder cut was quite good. His character arguably had the most depth in this cut.

I would say it’s the general hypocrisy of people in that industry: say and “believe” something, do something else out of ‘practicality.’ The bigger sin was that these filmmakers and producers don’t have any taste: Snyder’s version of Cyborg had at least had some pathos and Fisher fleshed out the character. The “suggestions” given to Fisher about changing Cyborg were tasteless to the point of being tone deaf. You could say Fisher’s motivation was his ego but I’d argue the ideas of Whedon and company were born out of their blind arrogance and over inflated sense of self worth.

It’s a pity Fisher would play the race card. You can tell he’s a very good actor, and imo he had valid aesthetic arguments. He could have shut up like the other actors, but Whedon’s version of Cyborg is so terrible it would probably stain future films starring the character. Fisher probably didn’t want to continue Whedon’s Cyborg and figured it was worth the press, good and bad, to get Snyder’s version out.

Just look at how John Boyega and the other actors felt about their roles in the sequel trilogy.

Ray Fischer gave me serious Sidney Pointier vibes in the Snyder Cut I think he has a promising career ahead of him if Hollywood doesn’t cancel him first.

 

[Rekki-Maru]

Hope Robert Downey jr send that bald bitch a iron man notepad and pencil.