Ray Rice (football player) cut by Baltimore Ravens, suspended indefinitely by NFL

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Zeus Molecules said:
If....
keep in mind I said if
ray rice spends this whole season getting "help" for his anger and making a legitimate attempt to atone publicly for beat his Fiance. Goddell will lift his suspension before training camp.
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I doubt it, and Goodell might not even have a job by then.
 
DarkFlow said:
I doubt it, and Goodell might not even have a job by then.
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Nah he kicked the players union's ass the last CBA negotiations. His job is as secure as its ever been. The owners know he held them down then and will return the favor now. Its too heated a story now and yeah Goodell should of suspended Rice a season to begin with. Deep down I think he wanted to, but this sets a precedent that while we the public applaud, anyone who knows football players knows this isn't the first time this has happened and it sure as hell won't be the last. Whole teams seasons will be negatives affected by this decision and he's going to have to make that call going forward which is exactly what he didn't want to do.

However, with that said the NFL has been allowing "reformed" knuckleheads back on teams for as long as I can remember. As long as Rice spends the next year showing public remorse, likely getting therapy, and avoiding any other major fuck ups he will get a roster spot on some team in the league if he can produce.
 
Zeus Molecules said:
Nah he kicked the players union's ass the last CBA negotiations. His job is as secure as its ever been. The owners know he held them down and will return the favor. Its too heated a story now and yeah Goodell should of suspended Rice a season to begin with.

However, with that said the NFL has been allowing "reformed" knuckleheads back on teams for as long as I can remember. As long as Rice spends the next year showing public remorse, likely getting therapy, and avoiding any other major fuck ups he will get a roster spot on some team in the league if he can produce.
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Read that link above your post, Goodell is circling the drain. As for letting rice back in, after this shit storm no team is going to touch him.
 
DarkFlow said:
Read that link above your post, Goodell is circling the drain. As for letting rice back in, after this shit storm no team is going to touch him.
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Once again its an old boy network, and the NFL has always had bad behavior. Goodell is good.

Also Vick went to jail for dog fighting, more than a few players have killed people and gone back to playing. The NFL is full of violent guys. Not that that is an excuse but its sad truth of the league. Rice will get another job, likely on a shitty contract, but he is too skilled for every GM to pass on. Especially if he spends a year saying "I'm sorry" and takes things like anger management.
 
Zeus Molecules said:
Once again its an old boy network, and the NFL has always had bad behavior. Goodell is good.

Also Vick went to jail for dog fighting, more than a few players have killed people and gone back to playing. The NFL is full of violent guys. Not that that is an excuse but its sad truth. Rice will get a job, likely on a shitty contract, but he is to skilled for every GM to pass on.
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Most players likely don't give a shit about dog fighting honestly, they do give a shit about a guy beating a woman and knocking her out. Also please find me a player that killed someone and they went back. Ray Rice doesn't count because no one ever proved that nor was he charged. You think a team would take Hernandez on if he some how got out free and clear?
 
DarkFlow said:
Most players likely don't give a shit about dog fighting honestly, they do give a shit about a guy beating a woman and knocking her out. Also please find me a player that killed someone and they went back. Ray Rice doesn't count because no one ever proved that nor was he charged. You think a team would take Hernandez on if he some how got out free and clear?
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Ray Lewis killed 2 guys, Marvin Harrison shot a guy and then when the guy sued him for being shot the guy happened to be killed by a gun Harrison owned that Harrison admitted he had shot bullets from that day. However, then both stories got buried and the NFL moved on.

Also it doesn't matter what the players think. Riley Cooper said "I will fight every N-word here" at a concert and still plays on the predominantly black eagles team. Do the players like him? Nope but he is on that team because the GM wants him and the players have no say.

Ray Rice will apologize again and every chance he will get. He will donate money (maybe even start a foundation) and go to therapy. Then in about a year he'll sign a 1-2 year shit deal with the hopes of showing he is worth another big money contract. This is how these stories always end.
 
Zeus Molecules said:
Ray Lewis killed 2 guys, Marvin Harrison shot a guy and then when the guy sued him for being shot the guy happened to be killed by a gun Harrison owned that Harrison admitted he had shot bullets from that day. However, then both stories got buried and the NFL moved on.

Also it doesn't matter what the players think. Riley Cooper said "I will fight every N-word here" at a concert and still plays on the predominantly black eagles team. Do the players like him? Nope but he is on that team because the GM wants him and the players have no say.

Ray Rice will apologize again and every chance he will get. He will donate money (maybe even start a foundation) and go to therapy. Then in about a year he'll sign a 1-2 year shit deal with the hopes of showing he is worth another big money contract. This is how these stories always end.
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Harrison never played again after the shooting incident and Lewis got his shit dismissed. Yeah he probably did it, but a probably isn't enough for the NFL to kick him out. Rice on the other hand is now a known woman beater, and he's done. I don't see why you want to keep defending this.
 
GameGuru59 said:
Why are you assuming she's staying with her partner out of fear? Why can't you just take her at her word? How is it not relevant that she would like to maintain her husband's earning power? It would certainly be more relevant if he were making 40K a year instead of six figures. Do you not understand that when you throw a family member in jail that destroys the family's ability to continue as a whole unit? This man had no prior run-ins with the law, and has not had any apparent incidents of violence since. For that, he should lose his job entirely? Again, this would be much more prescient to people if he were a middle class person.

Indeed. My thoughts exactly.

Frankly, Ray Rice is a scapegoat. Yes, he shouldn't have hit his wife. He was wrong. But the reaction to this irritates me as a Political Science degree holder (though I understand why its happening). Everytime a high profile case emerges, people suddenly want to become deontologists. All the while the leaders of this nation kill thousands of innocent people in the Middle East with our weapons. When Roger Sterling says racist shit on tape, everybody wants to scream about racism, all the while tolerating racist redistricting and voting laws. Nobody wants to throw those politicians out of office immediately. Yet Ray Rice gets called "human refuse." American politics is so delightfully curious and fickle. Perhaps that's why the masses are so easily manipulated. Have fun agreeing with one another.
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You're trying to frame this in terms of consequences to the people involved in the incident, but that's not the way the NFL should be looking at this. His behavior was so deplorable that the league will lose credibility if they don't take drastic action. And you say that Ray Rice is a scapegoat, but a scapegoat is an innocent actor. I don't think he's a scapegoat unless his twin knocked out Janay Palmer.

Politics are not analogous because allowing a small group of decision makers to throw out a politician on a whim could undermine the democratic process. People do in fact want to throw politicians out for the stupid things they say and do but it is not easy to do so for the reasons that I mentioned. Football is just entertainment, and if the league has determined that he will do more harm than good for their brand then they have no reason to employ him. That is capitalism at work.
 
DarkFlow said:
Harrison never played again after the shooting incident and Lewis got his shit dismissed. Yeah he probably did it, but a probably isn't enough for the NFL to kick him out. Rice on the other hand is now a known woman beater, and he's done. I don't see why you want to keep defending this.
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I'm not defending anything. Don't take my cynicism of how the NFL will resolve this as a defense. Even using the word "defense" and "defending" is loaded since it makes it seem what I am saying is some sort of defense of ray rice which its not. Fuck ray rice.

I am just telling you how I've seen stuff like this go down before when it comes to the NFL and how I'm pretty damn sure its going to go down again. The NFL doesn't really care, if they did they would of suspended him more than 2 games from the start. If the NFL cared they would of given this suspension a definitive time period from a single season all the way to life, but they didn't. As a way to give Rice an opening to return as soon as feasible. Ray Lewis got his shit dismissed sure, but Vick did time and as soon as he was out he had a job. Its the reality of the NFL.
 
Zeus Molecules said:
I'm not defending anything. Don't take my cynicism of how the NFL will resolve this as a defense. Even using the word "defense" and "defending" is loaded since it makes it seem what I am saying is some sort of defense of ray rice which its not.

I am just telling you how I've seen stuff like this go down before when it comes to the NFL and how I'm pretty damn sure its going to go down again. The NFL doesn't really care, if they did they would of suspended him more than 2 games from the start. If the NFL cared they would of given this suspension a definitive time period from a single season all the way to life, but they didn't. As a way to give Rice an opening to return as soon as feasible. Ray Lewis got his shit dismissed sure, but Vick did time and as soon as he was out he had a job. Its the reality of the NFL.
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This seems to be a bit different due to having public video of the event. Morning news shows all started off with this event. I don't think that Goodell or the NFL really expected it to get to this point. That's why they quickly scrambled after the initial suspension and made a new rule and he even apologized. Then they went back on their new suspension and suspended him indefinitely. They're in a panic mode right now, which is not really common for this league.
 
SolidSnakex said:
This seems to be a bit different due to having public video of the event. Morning news shows all started off with this event. I don't think that Goodell or the NFL really expected it to get to this point. That's why they quickly scrambled after the initial suspension and made a new rule and he even apologized. Then they went back on their new suspension and suspended him indefinitely. They're in a panic mode right now, which is not really common for this league.
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I agree, because they thought they had the issue under control. Them doing this now is as Much about the public backlash as anything. But the public has been incensed before with individual players and there are a set of established "PR" moves that players have done (and will continue to do). That quiets the fans and media fervor enough for them to be resigned.

Ray Rice is scum, but a playetr being scum hasn't stopped the NFL from taking a player back yet. Especially a player of his talent level.
 
Zeus Molecules said:
I agree, because they thought they had the issue under control. Them doing this now is as Much about the public backlash as anything. But the public has been incensed before with individual players and there are a set of established "PR" moves that players have done (and will continue to do). That quiets the fans and media fervor enough for them to be resigned.

Ray Rice is scum, but a playetr being scum hasn't stopped the NFL from taking a player back yet. Especially a player of his talent level.
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Even if they're talented the scumbags should be banned from elite organizations like the NFL. I know you're not defending the NFL, Michael Vick and Ray Rice but hopefully things change after this fiasco.
 
Zeus Molecules said:
Ray Lewis killed 2 guys, Marvin Harrison shot a guy and then when the guy sued him for being shot the guy happened to be killed by a gun Harrison owned that Harrison admitted he had shot bullets from that day. However, then both stories got buried and the NFL moved on.

Also it doesn't matter what the players think. Riley Cooper said "I will fight every N-word here" at a concert and still plays on the predominantly black eagles team. Do the players like him? Nope but he is on that team because the GM wants him and the players have no say.

Ray Rice will apologize again and every chance he will get. He will donate money (maybe even start a foundation) and go to therapy. Then in about a year he'll sign a 1-2 year shit deal with the hopes of showing he is worth another big money contract. This is how these stories always end.
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Really dont see why people think its cool to keep repeating this stupid shit.

SolidSnakex said:
So basically the NFL had no interest in seeing the tape and were hoping that this would all go away after the suspension, rule change and apology.

Also, Mike and Mike mentioned this morning that the NFL has informed people that they will have no one available to comment on this situation today.
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NFL said that they contacted the police for the video and was denied due to investigation. Before yesterday there was doubt that a second video even existed and I would also reckon that the hotel making a copy that they are now disseminating is illegal due to the tapes status as evidence. Unless you have proof that the Nfl didnt inquire with the police I dont see how what you said is valid.
 
Abounder said:
Even if they're talented the scumbags should be banned from elite organizations like the NFL. I know you're not defending the NFL, Michael Vick and Ray Rice but hopefully things change after this fiasco.
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I would be pleasantly surprised if it was but every step taken so far points to it being the normal bs moves.
 
Zeus Molecules said:
I agree, because they thought they had the issue under control. Them doing this now is as Much about the public backlash as anything. But the public has been incensed before with individual players and there are a set of established "PR" moves that players have done (and will continue to do). That quiets the fans and media fervor enough for them to be resigned.

Ray Rice is scum, but a playetr being scum hasn't stopped the NFL from taking a player back yet. Especially a player of his talent level.
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The NFL turned their backs on Chad Johnson and Terrell Owens. Sure most of them were past their prime in terms of being a #1, but they could've certainly played for other teams that have a poor receiving core. But the NFL was tired of putting up with them and decided that they were done. They could easily push Rice aside as well.

rambis said:
Really dont see why people think its cool to keep repeating this stupid shit.


NFL said that they contacted the police for the video and was denied due to investigation. Before yesterday there was doubt that a second video even existed and I would also reckon that the hotel making a copy that they are now disseminating is illegal due to the tapes status as evidence. Unless you have proof that the Nfl didnt inquire with the police I dont see how what you said is valid.
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We know that the police had the video and Ray's attorney had the video. TMZ is reporting that their sources from the casino told them that they would've made a video for the NFL had they been asked. And right now TMZ seems to have far more credibility on this issue than the NFL.
 
rambis said:
Really dont see why people think its cool to keep repeating this stupid shit.


NFL said that they contacted the police for the video and was denied due to investigation. Before yesterday there was doubt that a second video even existed and I would also reckon that the hotel making a copy that they are now disseminating is illegal due to the tapes status as evidence. Unless you have proof that the Nfl didnt inquire with the police I dont see how what you said is valid.
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Why would they even need a video to give the open ended "indefinite" suspension if they cared. He admitted he knocked her out and we all saw him drag her out of an elevator.
 
Zeus Molecules said:
I agree, because they thought they had the issue under control. Them doing this now is as Much about the public backlash as anything. But the public has been incensed before with individual players and there are a set of established "PR" moves that players have done (and will continue to do). That quiets the fans and media fervor enough for them to be resigned.

Ray Rice is scum, but a playetr being scum hasn't stopped the NFL from taking a player back yet. Especially a player of his talent level.
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What talent level? Rice is a bum.
 
I can't wrap my head around this situation. I was convinced yesterday that the NFL front office had to have seen the tape because how can you conduct an investigation and not ever look at the most vital piece of evidence?

Now that TMZ is reporting that the NFL never asked to see it I'm not sure what's worse; seeing the video and still suspending him 2 games or not thinking it was important enough to do a thorough investigation and suspending him 2 games.

As people have been saying from the beginning the first tape alone should have been enough for a harsher penalty but when I saw that the suspension was so short I assumed that the elevator video painted a different picture.
 
DarkFlow said:
Harrison never played again after the shooting incident and Lewis got his shit dismissed. Yeah he probably did it, but a probably isn't enough for the NFL to kick him out. Rice on the other hand is now a known woman beater, and he's done. I don't see why you want to keep defending this.
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Leonard Little continues to be the most disgraceful incident, kills a woman while drunk driving, gets 4 years probation. Gets caught drunk driving AGAIN, and is given 2 years probation.
 
SapientWolf said:
You're trying to frame this in terms of consequences to the people involved in the incident, but that's not the way the NFL should be looking at this. His behavior was so deplorable that the league will lose credibility if they don't take drastic action. And you say that Ray Rice is a scapegoat, but a scapegoat is an innocent actor. I don't think he's a scapegoat unless his twin knocked out Janay Palmer.

Politics are not analogous because allowing a small group of decision makers to throw out a politician on a whim could undermine the democratic process. People do in fact want to throw politicians out for the stupid things they say and do but it is not easy to do so for the reasons that I mentioned. Football is just entertainment, and if the league has determined that he will do more harm than good for their brand then they have no reason to employ him. That is capitalism at work.
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I think he's a scapegoat in the sense that people are using the incident to lump outrage on him specifically, when there are plenty of people who have done far worse (including killed people) and are still in the NFL. I think a six game suspension is enough in this instance. Maybe I could go for a year long suspension. But I don't think anyone should lose their job here.

Where did I say I agree with capitalism?

Zaphod said:
I wasn't asking you about Ray Rice, I was asking about, at first a bit rudely, about your idea that it's a natural and common thing for angry people to hit their partners. You sure like to deflect.
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I've done some thinking on your question since last night. Let me try another angle.

Yes, like I said, its something that happens. I doubt it reliable research on the question exists, but I would imagine probably half of America has done something that could legally be construed as assault at some point in the course of a relationship. If we're counting children, then I'm certain it's at least half. Hell, I was mildly assaulted by a teacher in 5th grade when she squeezed the shit out of my shoulder to throw me out of class and left a mark.

If we're counting children in the domestic violence equation, let me share some of my own experience: My mother used to throw pots and pans at me when she was angry. Any one of those could have knocked me out or even killed me if I weren't better at dodging them. In retrospect that was bad, but when I was a kid the things I feared far worse were her spankings. Those really hurt. If I got in trouble at school (which happened often because I went to one of those magnet schools that were basically run like a prison), I would be terrified every Friday because those were the days she would figure out how many times I'd gotten in trouble. Most Fridays I got a spanking. Sometimes, I would get in trouble on the weekend and get a spanking. I distinctly remember a couple of times (there may have been more) where my father specifically told my mother to stop- sort of the opposite of what people tend to expect.

There were even a couple of weeks where she would spank me once every day I went to school as a 'reminder' to behave when I went to school. Looking back on it, that shit was pretty fucked up. I'm pretty sure she regrets doing it now, she doesn't hit my younger siblings like that.

A few other things:

*When she was still able to spank me, my grandmother would tell me to go get a switch (basically a thorny vine) from the farm for her to spank me with. If I didn't get one big enough, she would get a bigger on herself. Those were worse than belts.

*My uncle once punched my female cousin with a closed fist.

*According to family stories my great grandfather spanked my grandmother (not the one that spanked me with switches) so often that she developed a stutter.

*When I was in high school I regularly saw men punch another man in the head and nearly knock the other one out. Once, I saw a a very heavyset girl pick up a skinnier girl and drop her on her head. She may have been briefly unconscious, but there were too many teachers (and one resource officer) trying to break up the fight for me to see. Her head was bleeding a bit. For the most part, these people were just suspended, unless they were regularly violent.

*Before I went to graduate school, I worked with people who would willingly recount stories of growing up in a backwoods country town. In one of these stories, they recounted a story where they ran a train on a "virgin" (his words) girl. As they described it to me the whole situation doesn't seem to be entirely legal. At some point, the girl passed out from the violent intensity of the "sex" (attack?). The boys (apparently they were in Middle/early Highschool) ran out of the house and just left her there. She ended up at the hospital according to the guy telling the story. Nothing happened to the guys. A Frankly, that shocked me.

This Ray Rice video does not shock me at this point in my life. I'm just being honest. I've seen and heard of much more violent things happening. Returning to my own experience, our family would have been devastated if my mother or uncle had gone to jail and lost their jobs over those incidents. That would. have. been. worse. than letting us handle the situation internally as a family. My cousin and I (and my grandmother before us) have grown to be very successful people. We got past it.

That doesn't mean I believe that every domestic violence incident is likely to end so well. As I have said previously, if you're habitually violent, you are a danger to society, and should probably be in jail.

We have no evidence Ray Rice is habitually violent. He made a mistake. He was wrong. He probably handled alot of it wrong. I do not believe that what he did is worth his job in the NFL. Unless you're in some kind of job where not being violent ever is generally part of the job requirements (perhaps a police officer, a domestic violence counselor, a nurse), then I don't think you should be fired unless you're tried, convicted, and sentenced to jail time. The reason we have a justice system is so we can adjudicate appropriate punishment for crimes. We elect prosecutors and find juries of our peers so that we can establish justice according to local community norms. In my opinion, your employer has no moral right to lump punishment on top of that.

Yes, I know we have capitalism, and at will employment in the United States. Just because that is currently the case doesn't mean I have to agree with that norm.
 
K.Jack said:
That alone doesn't mean much. For instance, if the police/prosecutor had already told them it would be illegal to obtain it, they had no reason to ask the casino.
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I thought the casino said they had no issues with giving them the tape, all they had to do was ask. If the police told them it was illegal, than someone's lying--either the cops or the casino.
 
Camp Lo said:
I thought the casino said they had no issues with giving them the tape, all they had to do was ask. If the police told them it was illegal, than someone's lying--either the cops or the casino.
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They can feel that way, but once the footage becomes part of a criminal investigation, the decisions can be taken out of their hands.
 
K.Jack said:
They can feel that way, but once the footage becomes part of a criminal investigation, the decisions can be taken out of their hands.
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The fact that the evidence is in a criminal investigation doesn't mean the casino can't give it out.
 
CNN interviewed some ex NFL higher up last night. Can't remember his title but he basically said NFL has great relationship with law enforcement and if NFL wanted that tape they would have gotten it without question. Its a massive fuck up and cover up. Not surprising for the NFL.
 
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