Support NeoGAF

[Sheroking]

Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo starting the next gen soon, there is no doubt about that.

Only because PS4k is backwards compatible to PS4 doesn't mean it is not a new gen. XOne has some BC to X360, Wii U is BC to Wii. XOne2 will be BC to XOne.

Huh?

PS4K is "next gen" in the same way that New 3DS was a "next gen" handheld. As far as we know, everything that runs on PS4K also runs on PS4. That's not "backwards compatible", that's forward compatible - or rather, just a console revision.

The only company with a next-gen console on the horizon is Nintendo.

 

[MK_768]

Huh?

PS4K is "next gen" in the same way that New 3DS was a "next gen" handheld. As far as we know, everything that runs on PS4K also runs on PS4. That's not "backwards compatible", that's forward compatible - or rather, just a console revision.

The only company with a next-gen console on the horizon is Nintendo.

Nintendo's consoles don't ever count as next-gen tho lol.

 

[MrCunningham]

Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo starting the next gen soon, there is no doubt about that.

Only because PS4k is backwards compatible to PS4 doesn't mean it is not a new gen. XOne has some BC to X360, Wii U is BC to Wii. XOne2 will be BC to XOne.

Sony calling their upcoming machine the PS4K doesn't really help its case that it is going to be a next generation machine. The NX is Nintendo catching up to this generation by releasing a machine that could potentially give out better performance than the PS4, but isn't a quantum leap ahead. And we have no idea what Microsoft has up their sleeves.

To me this is console generation 8.5.

 

[Sheroking]

Nintendo's consoles don't ever count as next-gen tho lol.

Well, they don't in the minds of people who don't realize that "generation" is a time period and has nothing to do with power envelopes - but those people are wrong.

 

[AcademicSaucer]

They're pretty reputable on CPU stuff of Nintendo's. They linked their past leak from Beyond3D about the Wii's CPU.

I just wish we had more info about the handheld, all leaks so far have been about the home console. Last time I heard anything was Shin en teasing porting Fast Racing Neo to an unannounced handheld

 

[ShadowFox08]

Well, we don't know anything about the GPU or RAM or a lot of things. We just know the CPU is a bit more powerful/faster than the Xbox One and PS4 which is great news in itself because no one at all expected that.

Where did you hear this?

 

[10k]

LCGeek has basically said that its an underpowered piece of shit that is only good for nintendo games and indies but not for AAA third party games right?

Im asumming thats the console, Im most curious about the handheld tho, Nintendo has no place in the home console market.

You missed what he said by THAT much. Wow.

He said the CPU is above the Xbox and PS4 by a noticeable amount but he thinks Nintendo should do more, like put an i5 in there. Then he spewed nonsense about Nintendo failing again because they won't build a $534 PC in a box like he did and sell it for $350 because they can get the parts for cheaper.

 

[Nanashrew]

How does it handle heat at higher power envelopes though?

Depends on what they may go for I guess? Cortex-A72 might be too new but it's fast, really cool and can support 4K video. Cortex-A57 is still really good though and I could see A57 on home console and A53 on handheld since they're part of the same family.

 

[10k]

Depends on what they may go for I guess? Cortex-A72 might be too new but it's fast, really cool and can support 4K video. Cortex-A57 is still really good though and I could see A57 on home console and A53 on handheld since they're part of the same family.

A72 or bust.

 

[Nanashrew]

A72 or bust.

A57 is still better than the current jaguars in the PS4 and Xbox One though.

 

[KratosEnergyDrink]

Huh?

PS4K is "next gen" in the same way that New 3DS was a "next gen" handheld. As far as we know, everything that runs on PS4K also runs on PS4. That's not "backwards compatible", that's forward compatible - or rather, just a console revision.

The only company with a next-gen console on the horizon is Nintendo.

Handheld and console markets are totally different otherwise the Vita would had better sales than the 3DS. And even on 3DS there are already games that perform only good on n3DS or are exclusive to n3DS

If the PS4k is a success and a big chunk of the purchasing power goes with the early adopters to PS4k, NX & XOne2 the developers will change their effort towards the new consoles. Like it happens with any new console generation.

And in 3 or 4 years from now the next-next console generation starts.

 

[DaSorcerer7]

I think you guys need to let ARM go. lol

 

[10k]

A57 is still better than the current jaguars in the PS4 and Xbox One though.

True. A57 is kind of irrelevant now though, the 72's surpass them in every way. I feel like you use a bunch of A53's or you skip to 72's. Leave the 53's for the handheld. They should be cool, efficient, and cheap enough to get into a SoC for holiday 2016.

I think you guys need to let ARM go. lol

Nah, it was nice hearing x86 and all but ARM has much more support (almost all mobile devices use it) and they're financial future is more secure than AMD.

x86 won't work for a shared architecture with a handheld. And the don't say Intel Atom, that thing is a piece of shit for gaming.

 

[Lonely1]

I think you guys need to let ARM go. lol

At the very least, the handheld will be ARM.

 

[Sheroking]

Handheld and console markets are totally different otherwise the Vita would had better sales than the 3DS. And even on 3DS there are already games that perform only good or are exclusive to n3DS

That has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about though...

When I mentioned 3DS to New 3DS, I was making the only near 1:1 comparison we have for PS4 and PS4K. Not a new cycle of devices, just a more powerful revision that plays the same games.

If the PS4k is a success and a big chunk of the purchasing power goes with the early adopters to PS4k, NX & XOne2 the developers will change their effort towards the new consoles. Like it happens with any new console generation.

And in 3 or 4 years from now the next-next console generation starts.

The PS4K is still the PS4. It's just faster for improved resolution and performance. It's not a new console. There's nothing for developers to "change their efforts" to.

 

[DaSorcerer7]

At the very least, the handheld will be ARM.

Yeah. that's what i'm expecting as well.

 

[MK_768]

Handheld and console markets are totally different otherwise the Vita would had better sales than the 3DS. And even on 3DS there are already games that perform only good or are exclusive to n3DS

If the PS4k is a success and a big chunk of the purchasing power goes with the early adopters to PS4k, NX & XOne2 the developers will change their effort towards the new consoles. Like it happens with any new console generation.

And in 3 or 4 years from now the next-next console generation starts.

It's not a new generation. Stop saying that.

N3DS has one(I'f i recall correctly) exclusive game and that game was on the friggin Wii. There are only a couple games that work better on N3DS. Hyrule Warriors is the biggest known one. Big whoop.

PS4K and XB1.5 are just newer iterations of the current gen. Whether or not devs focus development on them matters not. They'll still be playable on the PS4/X1 vanilla.

 

[Malus]

Where did you hear this?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=200144552#post200144552

 

[Pokemaniac]

It's not a new generation. Stop saying that.

N3DS has one(I'f i recall correctly) exclusive game and that game was on the friggin Wii. There are only a couple games that work better on N3DS. Hyrule Warriors is the biggest known one. Big whoop.

PS4K and XB1.5 are just newer iterations of the current gen. Whether or not devs focus development on them matters not. They'll still be playable on the PS4/X1 vanilla.

There are at least two New 3DS exclusives, and I'm pretty sure there's more in the pipeline.

There are also a whole bunch of games with New 3DS enhancements.

 

[LCGeek]

You missed what he said by THAT much. Wow.

He said the CPU is above the Xbox and PS4 by a noticeable amount but he thinks Nintendo should do more, like put an i5 in there. Then he spewed nonsense about Nintendo failing again because they won't build a $534 PC in a box like he did and sell it for $350 because they can get the parts for cheaper.

I was being hyperbolic, Nintendo needs a competent i3 as DX demos have shown they can hang with i7. a megaphone and exaggeration can go a long way.

For record I said it was pathetic they cant do what I did at 534$ two years ago with that spec at 350$ or less now. It's not a money thing plenty of AMD tech alone can get there.

 

[atbigelow]

Having NX devices with different architectures doesn't rule out a shared library. But it will definitely add to the complexities. At that point, you'd be worrying about the binaries on each. Either it'd be a universal bytecode compiled to the device at install or compilation would have to happen in advance for each supported platform. The former feels less scalable in the case of new devices entering the ecosystem.

 

[donny2112]

If Nintendo is launching this year, and third-parties won't be able to have software ready until next year, maybe Nintendo is intentionally planning to go it alone at launch instead of pouring money to convince third-parties to jump on at launch like they did with Wii U by matching advertising budgets. Maybe try to entice third-party ports in 2017 instead to fill the inevitable post-launch draught?

 

[Milly Osworth]

More powerful than PS4 eh? Zelda or Mario with Uncharted 4 quality visuals. Hmmm I like 🙀

 

[Agent Unknown]

I was being hyperbolic, Nintendo needs a conpetent i3 as DX demos have shown they can hang with i7.

I take it you work in the industry and claim to be privy to at least some NX info based on your last replied regarding Nintendo "not impressing anybody" in regards to the CPU? Sorry, I'm way behind on this thread and just trying to get some context.

Edit: NM, caught up a bit now and answered my own question. Kind of disconcerting stuff. :/

 

[Pinky]

Are there any interesting conversations happening over at Beyond3D in regards to NX? I understand you're a member over there, correct?

 

[10k]

I was being hyperbolic, Nintendo needs a competent i3 as DX demos have shown they can hang with i7. a megaphone and exaggeration can go a long way.

You're never getting an i3 equivalent in a console. At best you'll get mid-range to top of the line laptop CPUs for good TDP.

Having NX devices with different architectures doesn't rule out a shared library. But it will definitely add to the complexities. At that point, you'd be worrying about the binaries on each. Either it'd be a universal bytecode compiled to the device at install or compilation would have to happen in advance for each supported platform. The former feels less scalable in the case of new devices entering the ecosystem.

It almost has to be the former, ARM everything unless Nintendo's unification of mobile and console didn't mean much in the end.

If Nintendo is launching this year, and third-parties won't be able to have software ready until next year, maybe Nintendo is intentionally planning to go it alone at launch instead of pouring money to convince third-parties to jump on at launch like they did with Wii U by matching advertising budgets. Maybe try to entice third-party ports in 2017 instead to fill the inevitable post-launch draught?

Like the N64. Nintendo put out like 80% of its games in year 1.

 

[Renekton]

A57 is still better than the current jaguars in the PS4 and Xbox One though.

Need an example of ~20W A57 cores handling non-mobile workloads.

 

[Neoxon]

I was being hyperbolic, Nintendo needs a competent i3 as DX demos have shown they can hang with i7. a megaphone and exaggeration can go a long way.

For record I said it was pathetic they cant do 534$ two years ago with that spec at 350$ or less now. It's not a money thing plenty of AMD tech alone can get there.

But at the same time, you have to consider that most people probably won't pay top dollar for a Nintendo console these days (especially with Nintendo's relationships with western third parties being as fickle as it is). And after the Wii U, I wouldn't be too sure about Nintendo getting any top-tier deals for parts.

 

[MK_768]

There are at least two New 3DS exclusives, and I'm pretty sure there's more in the pipeline.

There are also a whole bunch of games with New 3DS enhancements.

What's the second?

As for the enhancements, outside of Hyrule Warriors, I have seen little to no complaints about the 3DS version of the games. The point I was making was that the N3DS never became the sole focus. Development never moved on from the 3DS like Kratos is predicting devs will do to the PS4 with the PS4K. Of course the point of the N3DS was all about a money grab so maybe the PS4K will be different.

 

[DaSorcerer7]

You're never getting an i3 equivalent in a console. At best you'll get mid-range to top of the line laptop CPUs for good TDP.

It almost has to be the former, ARM everything unless Nintendo's unification of mobile and console didn't mean much in the end.

Like the N64. Nintendo put out like 80% of its games in year 1.

No, it does not. If it is indeed true that they are going with x86 and ARM, at this stage in the game they've already worked the issues you mentioned.

 

[James Scott]

What's the second?

As for the enhancements, outside of Hyrule Warriors, I have seen little to no complaints about the 3DS version of the games. The point I was making was that the N3DS never became the sole focus. Development never moved on from the 3DS like Kratos is predicting devs will do to the PS4 with the PS4K. Of course the point of the N3DS was all about a money grab so maybe the PS4K will be different.

Xenoblade and Binding of Isaac

 

[Pokemaniac]

What's the second?

As for the enhancements, outside of Hyrule Warriors, I have seen little to no complaints about the 3DS version of the games. The point I was making was that the N3DS never became the sole focus. Development never moved on from the 3DS like Kratos is predicting devs will do to the PS4 with the PS4K. Of course the point of the N3DS was all about a money grab so maybe the PS4K will be different.

Binding of Isaac.

 

[Nanashrew]

Game consoles are all mobile parts and there's still a cost issue. Even Sony didn't make a console at a loss. While they all can go for something much higher, even Nintendo, no one is in it to make loss leading consoles anymore.

I don't believe we'll get anything at i3 levels for a while.

 

[MK_768]

Binding of Isaac.

Ah. An indie game. Unfortunately, I rarely pay attention to indie games so hence my ignorance.

 

[LCGeek]

You're never getting an i3 equivalent in a console. At best you'll get mid-range to top of the line laptop CPUs for good TDP.

Nintendo isn't that far off from getting nor are the current console in real world performance. I3 arent expensive and 4130 power is the minimum need to take on PS4 as is. It's not out their reach. Anything better would have to hit this ballpark.

 

[KratosEnergyDrink]

It's not a new generation. Stop saying that.

N3DS has one(I'f i recall correctly) exclusive game and that game was on the friggin Wii. There are only a couple games that work better on N3DS. Hyrule Warriors is the biggest known one. Big whoop.

PS4K and XB1.5 are just newer iterations of the current gen. Whether or not devs focus development on them matters not. They'll still be playable on the PS4/X1 vanilla.

It will simply turn out as every new console gen: Old consoles (PS4/Xone) will get ports until the majority of the purchasing power (not necessary the majority of gamers) went to the new consoles (PS4k, XOne2).

Early adopters of new consoles are normally the ones who buy many games (and at full price). The ones who buy old consoles (and games) are usually not the ones the publishers want to target specifically.

Developers will optimise their games for PS4k & Co if these new consoles are a success. PS4/XOne ports will be an afterthought

 

[Herb Alpert]

But at the same time, you have to consider that most people probably won't pay top dollar for a Nintendo console these days (especially with Nintendo's relationships with western third parties being as fickle as it is). And after the Wii U, I wouldn't be too sure about Nintendo getting any top-tier deals for parts.

That's the reality they have to cope with, indeed. Expecting them to build a super uber powerful machine is kinda weird.
I'd be more than happy with a PS4 level Nintendo console!

 

[Fahzgoolin]

I want a remaster of Super Mario Sunshine and Mario Kart Double Dash =(

 

[Peru]

People like LCGeek have one perspective, which is that of a western developer perspective. And that perspective is largely uninteresting. Don't get me wrong, more western games would be nice, but if the strategy outlined by Iwata in any way suggests a reality to come then the real watershed moment is Nintendo aiming their considerable development resources towards one ecosystem and as such can present to the customers a product that specifically stands out from western-oriented systems and becomes the de facto and perhaps only choice for people interested in Japanese console gaming experience - all Nintendo's properties and many of the other Japanese trad - with a steady flow of software independent of western developers who will almost always find more familiar and easier of use platforms to launch on elsewhere, regardless of Nintendo's efforts.

 

[James Scott]

Ah. An indie game. Unfortunately, I rarely pay attention to indie games so hence my ignorance.

It's Unity games (new 3DS supports it while OG 3DS doesn't) and SNES VC along with Xenoblade so far.
I wouldn't expect major titles for it, especially not this late.

 

[MK_768]

It will simply turn out as every new console gen: Old consoles (PS4/Xone) will get ports until the majority of the purchasing power (not necessary the majority of gamers) went to the new consoles (PS4k, XOne2).

Early adopters of new consoles are normally the ones who buy many games (and at full price). The ones who buy old consoles (and games) are usually not the ones the publishers want to target specifically.

Developers will optimise their games for PS4k & Co if it is a success. PS4/XOne ports will be an afterthought

*sigh*

still not a new gen lol.

Even if you want something not to happen it could happen anyway

It's not about what I want???

It's Unity games (new 3DS supports it while OG 3DS doesn't) and SNES VC along with Xenoblade so far.
I wouldn't expect major titles for it, especially not this late.

Yeah this I know. The SNES thing is hardly a big deal. Who really needs to buy the same games for a 3rd time lol

I do think Pokemon Sun and Moon may see some minor upgrades but it's Game Freak. They won't alienate OG 3DS owners.

 

[KratosEnergyDrink]

*sigh*

still not a new gen lol.

It is. Even if you want something not to happen it could happen anyway

 

[LCGeek]

People like LCGeek have one perspective, which is that of a western developer perspective. And that perspective is largely uninteresting. Don't get me wrong, more western games would be nice, but if the strategy outlined by Iwata in any way suggests a reality to come then the real watershed moment is Nintendo aiming their considerable development resources towards one ecosystem and as such can present to the customers a product that specifically stands out from western-oriented systems and becomes the de facto and perhaps only choice for people interested in Japanese console gaming experience - all Nintendo's properties and many of the other Japanese trad - with a steady flow of software independent of western developers who will almost always find more familiar and easier of use platforms to launch on elsewhere, regardless of Nintendo's efforts.

Post history will show otherwise on plenty of tech topics, but go ahead and be wrong. My point is Nintendo needs these ones as well, they don't need to worried about Japanese developers they aren't ones asking for it. If retro, Ubisoft, and capcom aren't glowing about working with this thing heads need to roll or people need to listen.

 

[Claude Augario]

This is what literacy has become. This is what happens when kids listen to the justin biebers.

People see what they want to see.

 

[Pokemaniac]

Nintendo isn't that far off from getting nor are the current console in real world performance. I3 arent expensive and 4130 power is the minimum need to take on PS4 as is. It's not out their reach. Anything better would have to hit this ballpark.

Is there a non-Intel equivalent of an i3 that's still cheap and could be used though? Intel have shown themselves to be a bit of non-starter in the console space.

 

[Pancake Mix]

I think the PS4.1 is going to hurt Sony in the long run. It has a potentially higher price point but with a stopgap-level power upgrade. Wii needed a successful hook and had a full 5-year gen preceeding it, and had 6 years itself.

We've seen stopgaps with Nintendo handhelds, but never any of the home consoles. PS4.1 will still sell well because it's a PS4, but I doubt it gets the proper major developer support or fan interest Sony is expecting. It's just another console to optimize games for, but they'll not want to abandon the huge PS4 install base, and if the upgrades are not mandated, I bet many do not bother.

NX meanwhile would fit into the 4-8 year generational leap that the big three (and Sega) have always adhered to. It's funny because the missing 5th year of the Wii U is going to look like nothing compared to a PS4 replacement by virtue of only a power doubling in barely 3 years.

 

[Vena]

Nintendo isn't that far off from getting nor are the current console in real world performance. I3 arent expensive and 4130 power is the minimum need to take on PS4 as is. It's not out their reach. Anything better would have to hit this ballpark.

I think this might be a provider problem. Intel isn't going to provide APUs, and AMD is way behind even the i3 in suitable TDP.

 

[MK_768]

I think the PS4.1 is going to hurt Sony in the long run, at a potentially higher price point but with a stopgap-level power upgrade. We've seen it with Nintendo handhelds, but never any of the home consoles. It will still sell well because it's a PS4, but I doubt it gets the proper major developer support or fan interest Sony is expecting. It's just another console to optimize for.

.

If the PS4K is $500 it won't sell well. $400? Maybe. I dont think they'll bring in that many new PS4 owners. I feel only current PS4 owners will get it. I mean I won't. I'll be okay with my vanilla PS4 lol.

 

[LCGeek]

I think this might be a provider problem. Intel isn't going to provide APUs, and AMD is way behind even the i3 in suitable TDP.

So like I said people are coming up with magical miracles to explain port performance not saying that's what's Nx will be. How they get the power is another matter but it's gotta be a homerun to be pleasing whoever is claiming that or even wanting to go there.

I'm nodding with most as we discuss this and go how Nintendo, however they are doing will probably be more impressive than what WiiU has done.

 

[Pancake Mix]

If the PS4K is $500 it won't sell well. $400? Maybe. I dont think they'll bring in that many new PS4 owners. I feel only current PS4 owners will get it. I mean I won't. I'll be okay with my vanilla PS4 lol.

In other words, NX could not come at a better time, especially as a generational upgrade over the Wii U. It may be short like Xbox to Xbox 360, but consumers aren't idiots and they saw the real generational leap there, short gen or not.