Reddit [verified] User shares NX info: x86 Architecture, Second screen support etc.

Status
Not open for further replies.
Thraktor, that is an impressive write up. Well done, sir.

I still think it makes the most sense to go with ARM. A72 is mature tech at this point and would offer a performance envelope that makes them competitive.

RAM is a tougher question. Nintendo is predisposed to focus on latency over bandwidth, so I could see them putting HBM on die for the GPU, and having a pool of LPDDR4 for the CPU.

HBM latency isn't really much lower than DDR, to be honest, although it would seem the best option if they want to stick to their split pools philosophy. That being said, I don't see them combining HBM with LPDDR4, as neither are at all cheap. If it is HBM I'd imagine 1-2GB of HBM with maybe 6GB of DDR3/4. You're right, though, in that there's no obvious answer on the RAM side of things.

Megapost by Thraktor. Well done, man. I agree with your conclusions. It's either Puma or A72 logically for an AMD build this year.

To be honest I don't even see the advantage of Puma. Performance is lower than A72, power consumption is higher, they'd be locked in to Zen for future devices, and you don't get the benefit of using the same ISA as the handheld. I can't rule it out, as there could be factors I'm not aware of, but from my perspective A72 seems like the clear option.

A72 could hit 2.5ghz+ at 14nm, so that would be ideal.

For a home console releasing this year I just don't think 14nm is feasible. If it's a 2017 release for whatever reason, then yeah, you'd potentially be looking at quite a bit higher A72 clocks (or even Zen, although whether that would be a suitable option would be very hard to predict).
 
We are laughing at the reddit leaker as DDR3 is not Video RAM for HD gaming, its only used for basic memory nowadays.

Its not the 12 or 8 or 6, its the wrong type of RAM.

So it does not make sense unless its DDR3 + some other video memory not mentioned (or like Xb1 with memory on the main APU which MS have struggled with and the butt of allot of ESRAM jokes).

Hoax leakers should at least make the stuff credible.

Bingo. For reference:

PS4 GDDR5 - 176GB/s
Xbox One DDR3 - 68GB/s (max bandwidth for DDR3 on a 256-bit bus)

Even using DDR4 you are limited to a max bandwidth of ~80GB/s on a 256-bit bus. If Nintendo really is targeting a console stronger than the PS4, you would want an appropriate amount of bandwidth to feed the CPU/GPU. So DDR3 sticks out like a sore thumb, unless Nintendo has some novel approach to solving the bandwidth problem.
 
Bullshit, now way would they have a more powerful GPU being bandwidth starved by slooow DDR3 unless half the APU is ESRAM like Xb1 (which would also mean its not a big GPU).

Either way, smells all wrong.

Nah, ESRAM only made sense in the limited time window in which Microsoft developed the XB1. If Nintendo went with split memory pools, it would be closer to what Thraktor said above.
 
We'll know if this dude is legit in the next few days given his latest update.

These details have me excited.

Everything but the "Nintendo Extra" name sounds great. I don't give a damn what my consoles are called but it's the general reception that worries me.
 
Everything but the "Nintendo Extra" name sounds great. I don't give a damn what my consoles are called but it's the general reception that worries me.

The full name is peculiar, however I'm sure most will refer to it as the NEX. The name being pretty close to NES will intrigue most of my older family members who will be looking to buy consoles for their children at the very least.
 
Not that I believe this but they have traditionally launched later with more RAM than Sony with N64, GC, and Wii U. Not Wii obvs.
edit: wait GC was less wasn't it, never mind!

It had more. The problem was it's main fast memory was only 24MB.

24MB 1TSRAM, 16MB ARAM, and 3MB embedded 1TSRAM.

PS2's main mem was 32MB RDRAM and 4MB embedded VRAM.
 
Bingo. For reference:

PS4 GDDR5 - 176GB/s
Xbox One DDR3 - 68GB/s (max bandwidth for DDR3 on a 256-bit bus)

Even using DDR4 you are limited to a max bandwidth of ~80GB/s on a 256-bit bus. If Nintendo really is targeting a console stronger than the PS4, you would want an appropriate amount of bandwidth to feed the CPU/GPU. So DDR3 sticks out like a sore thumb, unless Nintendo has some novel approach to solving the bandwidth problem.

We agree, DDR3 is his big slip up in this hoax....unless they have memory in the APU like xb1 or go HBM like the R9 Fury

So If this reddit leak is right they are either doing an Xb1 layout or using the video memory of the R9 Fury x.

Nah, ESRAM only made sense in the limited time window in which Microsoft developed the XB1. If Nintendo went with split memory pools, it would be closer to what Thraktor said above.

You think Nintendo would be the second adoptor of the brand new HBM process after the Fury x ? Gets popcorn....
 
The dev kit is 12GB, not the final retail unit.

It points to the console. Not to the dev kit.

It had more. The problem was it's main fast memory was only 24MB.

24MB 1TSRAM, 16MB ARAM, and 3MB embedded 1TSRAM.

PS2's main mem was 32MB RDRAM and 4MB embedded VRAM.

About time you showed up. Who are we now missing for this WUST.
 
The full name is peculiar, however I'm sure most will refer to it as the NEX. The name being pretty close to NES will intrigue most of my older family members who will be looking to buy consoles for their children at the very least.

The NEX is actually a great abbreviation, but I think that they could come up with something better than "Extra" to make up the EX part. Nintendo Entertainment Xperiance, or Nintendo Entertainment Xylophone. Something like that.
 
For a home console releasing this year I just don't think 14nm is feasible. If it's a 2017 release for whatever reason, then yeah, you'd potentially be looking at quite a bit higher A72 clocks (or even Zen, although whether that would be a suitable option would be very hard to predict).

I figured they would probably use TSMC, since they seem to get the nod for the semi-custom business. They've had 16nm FinFET in mass production since the tail end of 2015.

Even at 16nm, clock speed would be quite good.
 
To be honest I don't even see the advantage of Puma. Performance is lower than A72, power consumption is higher, they'd be locked in to Zen for future devices, and you don't get the benefit of using the same ISA as the handheld. I can't rule it out, as there could be factors I'm not aware of, but from my perspective A72 seems like the clear option.

I'm inclined to agree. From our perspective, Puma is nothing but downsides.
 
You think Nintendo would be the second adoptor of the brand new HBM process after the Fury x ? Gets popcorn....

If history is any indication, it's much more likely Nintendo will put money into memory than CPU/GPU grunt. It's not unbelievable. It just depends on what their design philosophy is this time around. Nobody expected expensive EDRAM for the Wii U, or for them to use a funky 1T-SRAM design for the GCN and subsequently the Wii.
 
Just three more weeks until Nintendo's FY 2015 Fiscal Year Earnings Release. And hopefully a news conference on the same day as well (separate from the Financial Results Briefing).
 
To me, A72 just makes sense and lines up with a lot of things Iwata stated he wanted to do with their hardware ecosystem. It also has more benefits than Puma.
 
I don't know how anybody would expect an NX home console released this year to have any more than 30% or so more CPU performance than PS4/XBO, let alone getting anywhere near a 125W desktop CPU.

Let's run through the different options Nintendo have open to them for a CPU for a home console releasing this year:

- x86 ISA -

Advantages:
- Large ecosystem of software, compilers, etc., etc.
- Several options which hit performance required for home console

Disadvantages:
- Only two vendors. If they want to create an NX successor with binary BC then Intel and AMD are their only options (unless VIA suddenly starts competing on performance)
- No options which hit energy efficiency required for handheld, which means using two different ISAs for the two devices, which means added cost in tools/OS/etc. development
- No binary-level BC with Wii U

Intel x86 cores:

Advantages:
- Higher end cores hit performance required for home console

Disadvantages:
- Likely more expensive than any other option
- No options which hit energy efficiency required for handheld

Synthesizable: No
Can be fabbed on-die with the GPU: No (unless they're crazy enough to use Intel IGP for a game console)

Broadwell, Skylake, etc.

Advantages:
- Probably the highest per-thread performance within a console CPU TDP
- Could be fabbed on 14nm for a 2016 launch

Disadvantages:
- Expensive
- Large die area
- See general Intel and x86 disadvantages above

Airmont (Atom)

Advantages:
- Small die area
- Low power consumption

Disadvantages:
- Lower performance per clock than either Puma or A72

AMD x86 cores:

Advantages:
- Plausible cores at least match performance required for home console (as they're already used in PS4/XBO)
- Should be cheaper than comparable Intel cores
- Nintendo have a longstanding relationship with AMD

Disadvantages:
- No options which hit energy efficiency required for handheld

Synthesizable: No
Can be fabbed on-die with the GPU: Yes (but only AMD GPUs)

Puma

Advantages:
- Would slightly outperform Jaguar cores used in PS4 and XBO
- AMD have ample expertise with Puma-based APUs
- Relatively small die area

Disadvantages:
- AMD aren't developing any x86 follow-ups to Puma, making the design of NX2 more difficult
- Likely lower performance than ARM A72 (which is one of the reasons AMD has dropped future development in favour of custom ARM cores)

Excavator

Advantages:
- Better performance per thread than Puma at high TDPs

Disadvantages:
- Power consumption required to get that performance is far, far beyond what's feasible in a console
- Large die area
- Even given the power consumption, performance per thread isn't that good

Zen

Advantages:
- Substantially better performance per thread than Puma
- Should provide high performance per thread even at console-level TDP

Disadvantages:
- Only available on 14nm, which means it's unlikely to be feasible for a 2016 console
- Probably a relatively large die area

- ARMv8 ISA -

Advantages:
- Large ecosystem of software, compilers, etc., etc.
- Several options which hit performance required for home console
- Several options which hit efficiency required for handheld
- Nintendo have a long history of ARM-based devices
- A large number of vendors developing binary-compatible cores across the performance spectrum

Disadvantages:
- Of the available cores, none quite hit the performance of high-end x86 or Power ISA cores
- No binary-level BC with Wii U

ARM in-house cores:

Advantages:
- Can be synthesised on-die with pretty much any GPU architecture
- Higher-end cores hit performance required for home console
- AMD have shown they're happy to work with reference ARM designs
- Relatively cheap
- Nintendo have already designed several SoCs with ARM's in-house cores

Disadvantages:
- No options which quite hit per-thread performance of Skylake/Zen

Synthesizable: Yes
Can be fabbed on-die with the GPU: Yes

A72

Advantages:
- Should moderately exceed performance of Jaguar on 28nm
- Relatively small die area
- See general ARM advantages above

Disadvantages:
- Not quite the per-thread performance of Skylake/Zen

A53

Advantages:
- Very energy efficient
- Tiny die area
- Could use exactly the same core on the handheld

Disadvantages:
- Doesn't have the per-thread performance necessary for a home console

AMD ARM cores:

K12

Advantages:
- Should exceed performance of Jaguar by a significant margin
- Nintendo have a longstanding relationship with AMD

Disadvantages:
- Won't be ready until 2017

Synthesizable: No
Can be fabbed on-die with the GPU: Yes (but only AMD GPUs)

Nvidia ARM cores:

Denver

Advantages:
- Probably exceeds the performance of Jaguar
- Could be integrated in a single die with Nvidia's GPU architecture

Disadvantages:
- Inconsistent benchmarks point to potential issues with dynamic recompilation to internal instruction set
- Nintendo may not have the best relationship with Nvidia, as the 3DS was apparently initially due to use a Tegra SoC, which was then dropped in favour of a custom chip with Pica graphics

Synthesizable: No
Can be fabbed on-die with the GPU: Yes (but only Nvidia GPUs)

Other ARM cores (Qualcomm, Samsung, etc.)

Advantages:
- Some offer performance exceeding ARM reference designs
- Some can be fabbed with synthesizable GPUs (eg Mali, PowerVR, etc.) on the same die

Disadvantages:
- Can't be fabbed on-die with AMD or Nvidia desktop-class GPUs

Synthesizable: No (in general)
Can be fabbed on-die with the GPU: Yes

- Power ISA -

Advantages:
- Nintendo have ample experience with Power ISA
- Could provide binary-level BC with Wii U
- Cores are available which hit performance required for home console (and then some!)

Disadvantages
- No options which hit energy efficiency required for handheld
- Only one vendor actively working on Power cores, and they're not exactly the kind of mid-range cores you'd use in a games console
- No options to fab on the same die as GPU

IBM Power cores:

Advantages:
- Nintendo have a long history of working with IBM
- IBM have been putting out chips on 22nm for a while now

Disadvantages:
- See general Power ISA disadvantages above

Synthesizable: No
Can be fabbed on-die with the GPU: No

POWER8

Advantages:
- Massively exceeds performance required for home console

Disadvantages:
- Enormous die area, far too large for a console CPU
- Very high TPD, far too high for a console CPU
- Lot of redundant functionality that's a waste for a console CPU

PowerPC A2

Advantages:
- Should hit performance levels required for a home console
- Relatively small die area
- Relatively power efficient (particularly on 22nm)
- Lots of floating point/SIMD performance

Disadvantages:
- Excessive floating point performance (game consoles don't need an exclusively 64-bit FP pipeline)
- Probably not that great in non-floating point tasks
- While it could technically provide BC with Wii U code, it's a very different architecture to Espresso, so unlikely to be able to run Wii U code at full speed

PowerPC 750

Advantages:
- Same architecture as used in Wii U, so easy and reliable BC
- Small die area
- Relatively energy efficient

Disadvantages:
- A 32-bit core, so system RAM would be limited to 4GB
- Doesn't hit performance levels of Jaguar
- No successors in development, so just pushing the can down the road

- MIPS ISA -

Advantages:
- Em, easier N64 BC perhaps?

Disadvantages:
- More than are worth going into here

Now, I could go further down along the list into obscure ISAs like RISC-V, but we've more than covered every realistic option open to Nintendo.

Based on the above, I think it's safe to rule out all Power ISA cores, as Wii U binary-compatibility can't be worth than much to Nintendo. I think we can also rule out Intel's offerings as well, both due to cost of the chips themselves, and the inability to fab on a single die with the GPU. Similarly I'd rule out all non-reference ARM cores, as they're the only ones which could be included on an SoC with an AMD GPU (which has to be by far the most likely GPU option). Then Excavator can be ruled out for heat and die area, the same reasons Sony and MS ruled out its predecessors, and 14nm is very unlikely to feasible this year, ruling out Zen.

So, we (or more accurately Nintendo) are basically reduced to two options: Puma or A72. Judging by single-core Geekbench 3 32 bit benchmarks (which are unfortunately all I have to work with for both, even enough it will be affected by things like memory configurations), Puma provides about 10% performance per clock boost over Jaguar, and should be able to clock a bit higher in the same thermal envelope (although it's hard to say by how much). At 2GHz, you could expect about a 25% boost over XBO's CPU, for the same number of cores.

The A72 hits 45% higher single-core Geekbench score per clock than Jaguar, and should clock a bit higher as well (they're hitting 1.8GHz in 28nm phone SoCs, so in a console environment we could assume 2GHz at least). A 2GHz 8 core A72 with two cores reserved for the OS would then give developers about 40% more to work with than they have on XBO. (Again this is just on the basis of this one benchmark).

If Nintendo want more performance than that (and given their history, I would be very surprised if they did), then more cores would be pretty much their only answer, although such a route isn't without its difficulties, as developers may struggle to adequately parallelise their code to make proper use of such a CPU.
Incredible post. I agreed with you in the NX official thread in having an 8 core A72 CPU on an AMD SoC and AMD GPU. The CPU should comfortably clock above 2Ghz in a console form factor, and I think the handheld would have 4 A72's as well.
 
Bullshit, now way would they have a more powerful GPU being bandwidth starved by slooow DDR3 unless half the APU is ESRAM like Xb1 (which would also mean its not a big GPU).

Either way, smells all wrong.



Exactly. Bandwidth would be enough to feed a ps3 / 360 / wiiU unless their are taking an ESRAM to the knee.

Or eDRAM, and considering they've gone with embedded memory in their last 3 consoles and all their recent handheld's its more than likely they will again.

Having said that I still hope DDR4 is used even if they go embedded again.
 
All this is is rumor mongering. C'mon Gaf you're better than this.

#1: What's happening the last few pages isn't so much rumor mongering as it is realistically discussing Nintendo's options, not any different than what most analyst firms would do.

#2: This is NintenGAF. Hype train or bust.
 
All this is is rumor mongering. C'mon Gaf you're better than this.

Hmmm...I've only been here a short time and I've seen plenty of "rumor mongering," if that's what this is.

That said, I'd call this mostly harmless speculation tied loosely to what I think most people are taking as dubious rumors. I could be mistaken.
 
Probably could if it was 14nm right?

There's a reason I used the phrase "this year" ;)

I figured they would probably use TSMC, since they seem to get the nod for the semi-custom business. They've had 16nm FinFET in mass production since the tail end of 2015.

Even at 16nm, clock speed would be quite good.

Assuming an AMD SoC, Samsung/GF 14nm would be the more likely option, as that's what they'll be using for both Polaris and Zen (although it's not impossible they have TSMC 16nm based chips in development as well).

Bingo. For reference:

PS4 GDDR5 - 176GB/s
Xbox One DDR3 - 68GB/s (max bandwidth for DDR3 on a 256-bit bus)

Even using DDR4 you are limited to a max bandwidth of ~80GB/s on a 256-bit bus. If Nintendo really is targeting a console stronger than the PS4, you would want an appropriate amount of bandwidth to feed the CPU/GPU. So DDR3 sticks out like a sore thumb, unless Nintendo has some novel approach to solving the bandwidth problem.

It's worth considering LPDDR4 as well in these comparisons. On a 256-bit bus you could squeeze almost 120GB/s out of LPDDR4, which is only a little less than the 140GB/s that's usable from PS4's GDDR5. It would obviously have the benefit of substantially lower power consumption, but would also be doable with only four RAM chips (both PS4 and XBO originally shipped with 16). They could also use one or two of the same chips in the handheld, if they really want to go gung-ho on unifying the hardware of the two devices (or they simply want to simplify purchasing and logistics).

If history is any indication, it's much more likely Nintendo will put money into memory than CPU/GPU grunt. It's not unbelievable. It just depends on what their design philosophy is this time around. Nobody expected expensive EDRAM for the Wii U, or for them to use a funky 1T-SRAM design for the GCN and subsequently the Wii.

Yep, esoteric and expensive memory is pretty much part of Nintendo's DNA at this point. Even the 3DS uses FCRAM rather than industry-standard LPDDR.
 
What would make the most sense to me from a cost perspective would honestly just be a tweaked puma version of the ps4 Apu with hopefully higher clocks, possibly slightly more shaders/cus as I believe there was some room on the ps4 die. Hopefully nintendo realizes at least 8gb of gddr5 is the way to go as well. 14nm Polaris Apu that's like 2x+ the ps4 would = gaf meltdown though.
 
What did I miss in the last few hours? There's an announcement of some kind coming?

--

ETA: thraktor, does your megapost mean the Nintendo Extra leaker's info is any more or less legit or possible?
 
What did I miss in the last few hours? There's an announcement of some kind coming?

Unverified Reddit leaker saying
Update 5: There is a Nintendo Direct planned before the Nintendo Investor meeting. Nintendo will announce it within the next few days.
Key points my sources highlighted to me:
NinOS
Nintendo Missions
Zelda news
NX News
Star Fox news
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom