Support NeoGAF

[shuri]

Sorry for the shitty format of this post. Also Take note that this is about repros and convert jobs that use original hardware instead of new custom made boards.

The new school of collectors is incredibly fucking dumb and annoying and their attitude is causing the actual self destruction of the scene

There's a new growing trend right now in the arcade (and consoles too!) collecting scene; a bunch of assholes are taking arcade boards of Capcom CPS2 titles; we're talking here: Street Fighter Alpha 1-2-3, Marvel Vs, Xmen, Xmen, Vs, Darkstalker and so on, and using a method that was developped to save dead boards (which was cool) and rom burners.. are KILLING ORIGINAL BOARDS and 'reburning' them into 'rare' games like ProGear and Alien vs Predator... Only to sell them NOT AS BOOTLEG, but as original copies of the game.

This used to be happen from times to times; and bootleg/converts/repros copies were 'tolerated' as oddities, but now this is getting systematic and organised.

There's this guy on the shmup forum who posted a pic of himself this week 3 huge stacks of CPS2 games, I swear there's about 100 of them boards in boxes, seems that he is converting them into Pro Gears and selling them for 300 a pop. That's a stack of hundreds of fun games that will simply die. Poor Chun-Li will never see the inside of an arcade cabinet and will be converted into a steampunk shmup. Plis think of the Chun-Lis

This has been going on in the Neo-Geo scene now and is killing the mvs market. Basement Bootleggers from South Korea, Japan and France are making a killing (ah) reburning those boards and selling them to fools on ebay and forums who drop huge money on the boards thinking they are real copies.

It does not help that there are idiots 'youtube personalities' on youtube who make reviews of those games and casually mention they're playing on a convert and its ok to pay big money for convert jobs 'because originals are too expensive'

Well now this stuff is creating HUGE problems.

If you go on ebay right now, I'm sure a lot of gaffers noticed how prices of arcade games (mvs, cps2) and even how lots of SNES games have skyrocketed. Why? Because those carts are being caniballized by bootleggers and being reused for repros, bootlegs and convertions.

Destructive mod jobs such as those RGB hackjobs for NES systems that used the PC10 chip are also pretty damn annoying, but at least it seems that the NES scene has found alternatives.


2-3 years ago, average prices of..

• Street Fighter 2 were 60-70$.. Now? 150,200!
• The Marvel/SF CPS2 games - 80-120 depending on titles.. now 150-600
• Midway Zeus Boards (MK4, NFL Blithz, Wargods).. Around 100$, now 300$
• The Punisher - before 50-100, now 300+

And much more.

Convert jobs and other stuff like this is already starting to hit NES/SNES stuff hard. Regular retail games, but rare like Evo and others are being reproducted and sold as originals in retro stores and on ebay. They are easy to spot and we're not talking 'big money' like for arcade stuff but still.

This is causing the rise of prices all across the board on EVERY title as bootleggers are buying every cart they can to modify them. Some titles are simply going extinct because of this. I have finally found a goddamn copy of World Heroes Perfect on the Neogeo MVS after searching for so long; they used to be common on ebay, but now its like spotting a Unicorn. But you don't know if its a real Unicorn, maybe it's a zebra that was painted over and The only real way to find out is to buy it and open it out to see its guts

Gaffers, pls be respondible and don't encourage with your money outfits that make repros or copies of games with REAL INNOCENT CARTS. Buying repros of exotic translated titles, betas and unreleased stuff is fun and great, as long as no real carts were harmed in the process. If you are desperate to play a game that is for some reasons super rare but easy to find in repro formats, by all means, resist the temptation.

This is already causing the artificial rise of prices and making real games go extinct for people who want to collect the legit original.

Be responsible!

 

[Zakalwe]

One of those areas of gaming that I know next to nothing about. The fact makes me feel so damn casual.

 

[SegaShack]

I miss 2009 and earlier when old game prices were cheap. There were always some collectors but over the last few years it's gotten rediculous. There was a time when the hobby was all about the games and now it's all about how much money you have.

As I kid I was able to get classic SNES, NES, Genesis, and even N64 games insanely cheap at both Gamestop and on eBay. Now a kid would have to spend a small fortune to try those same games. Can't wait until the bubble bursts and things go back to normal.

Who would've thought mass produced gamecube games would sell for so much a few years later, lmao.

 

[Gunsmithx]

It's funny I remember telling a buddy of mine who got some repos how just wait one day that madden 96 was gonna be rare, it was funny at the time but it's less funny if they are killing and making it hard to find some games, really sad to hear about the arcade boards though :/

Yeah the collection market has gotten crazy in the last couple of years, even just getting an incomplete collection of just games you'd want to play if hard and very expensive, forgot about a complete collection for a system.

 

[IrishNinja]

typical alarmist shuri thread, you're vastly oversimplifying the current retro bubble and inherent problems in the NG community (hoarding, NG freaks bullshit, etc etc).

no one likes seeing arcade boards or rare carts destroyed when only so few remain, but you know what? the translated FF V repro i have removed a copy of Bill Laimbeer's Combat Basketball from existence, and that's okay too. calm down.

If you go on ebay right now, I'm sure a lot of gaffers noticed how prices of arcade games (mvs, cps2) and even how lots of SNES games have skyrocketed. Why? Because those carts are being caniballized by bootleggers and being reused for repros, bootlegs and convertions.

you literally cannot be ignorant enough to think the current retro bubble is in any real way the fault of the niche repro scene. seriously.

It's funny I remember telling a buddy of mine who got some repos how just wait one day that madden 96 was gonna be rare, it was funny at the time but it's less funny if they are killing and making it hard to find some games

fuck Madden '96 and if i want the last copy of it to be Umihara Kawase then you can start repro'ing Hagane's into that game, problem solved
also your buddy sounds pretty awesome

 

[rrs]

NFL Blitz was never on Zeus hardware (seattle), but what's so valuable about Zeus, other than MAME can't emulate it yet?

But yeah, reflashed rare games claiming to be original can go die in a fire on moral ground alone.

 

[Hodders]

Don't agree with the comment regarding the price increase of CPS2 boards whatsoever.

The Zero, Vs, Darkstalkers games are in a similar place price wise to 3/4 years ago.

The only one I can think of that has rocketed in price is Super Turbo/2X and I would put that down to popularity more than anything.

I do agree with the overall sentiment of your points, but without the hyperbole.

 

[riskVSreward]

Im drowning in hyperbole here, someone throw me a life preserver.

 

[badcrumble]

So this is basically a lot like when collectors kicked up a fuss about digital PSN versions of PS1 games or HD remasters of PS2 games being released because it lowered the exchange value of their collected copies? No sympathy.

 

[PetriP-TNT]

Goddamn, OP is pissed at repro carts. I have no idea about arcade boards, but there are about a billion more carts that aren't worth the plastic they are inside of.

 

[Lunaniem]

It's almost like people are allowed to do whatever they want with the property they bought.

 

[shuri]

you literally cannot be ignorant enough to think the current retro bubble is in any real way the fault of the niche repro scene. seriously.

Of course not! But it's not helping.

Also, it's not copies of Bill Laimbeer's Combat Baseketball that are being killed. It's copies of great classics from the Street Fighter franchise and others. It hurts a bit more!

Some guy wants to play Street Alpha 3? well too bad, all the good boards were bought by the same crew and are being converted into some other 'rare' game. Certain games can be converted more easily into certain titles. It sucks if you want to buy legit stuff to play them.

 

[Metallix87]

typical alarmist shuri thread, you're vastly oversimplifying the current retro bubble and inherent problems in the NG community (hoarding, NG freaks bullshit, etc etc).

no one likes seeing arcade boards or rare carts destroyed when only so few remain, but you know what? the translated FF V repro i have removed a copy of Bill Laimbeer's Combat Basketball from existence, and that's okay too. calm down.

Agreed.

 

[The End]

So this is basically a lot like when collectors kicked up a fuss about digital PSN versions of PS1 games or HD remasters of PS2 games being released because it lowered the exchange value of their collected copies? No sympathy.

It's more like when GQD paid sony to reprint rare PS2 games but yeah, speculators gotta speculate.

I'm just happy more people get to play ProGear.

 

[danmaku]

Goddamn, OP is pissed at repro carts. I have no idea about arcade boards, but there are about a billion more carts that aren't worth the plastic they are inside of.

Arcade boards are not nearly as common as carts. However, the market for those converted boards is ridiculously small. I doubt that they can turn common games into rarities. Besides, everything that allows people to play more Progear has all my support.

 

[Persona7]

It's almost like people are allowed to do whatever they want with the property they bought.

Is it ok if they do this and then sell it without telling the buyer?

 

[Lunaniem]

Is it ok if they do this and then sell it without telling the buyer?

No, they should tell the buyer exactly what they are getting.

 

[riskVSreward]

In all honesty, there's such a scant few repros/bootlegs that require anything other than a common donor cart. Most communities self-regulate what repros they tolerate, any perceived breach of ethics is usually dealt with. In fact, someone usually develops a new PCB specifically for making repros that require rare boards.

Of course people who sell repros as authentic originals are pieces of shit.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

To be perfectly honest I know next to nothing about all this, but the idea of reusing old boards and carts of old games no one cares about to make something else sounds kind of ingenius.

Plus, I hate to trot this argument out, but it's their money. They're video games, not rare pieces of Mayan art. Preservationists can buy these games and sit on them if they want to, no one is stopping them.

 

[Coconut]

I thought the idea was to make money off this crap.

 

[shuri]

To be perfectly honest I know next to nothing about all this, but the idea of reusing old boards and carts of old games no one cares about to make something else sounds kind of ingenius.

Plus, I hate to trot this argument out, but it's their money. They're video games, not rare pieces of Mayan art. Preservationists can buy these games and sit on them if they want to, no one is stopping them.

Of course!

But these guys arent doing this to have something to play. They are doing this solely to resell them and pass them off as originals. And it's not 1-2, it's lots of them. And arcade boards were never produced in console-like numbers.

 

[alr1ght]

When they make labels and reproductions and pass them off as originals (thus making huge money), is where the line is crossed. If you want to reproduce/translate a Japanese only game for a US SNES, that's fine as everybody knows it's not an original.

There's gotta be a market opportunity to create new shells for carts.

 

[KojiKnight]

What's not cool: Selling repros and modified games as originals.

What is cool: Reusing old hardware that would otherwise be put into a land fill AS LONG AS any such equipment sold was sold with all information about what it is and what was done to it.

Recycling is a good thing yo!

 

[Tempy]

Relax.

NES/SNES repros are hopefully shifting more towards using brand-new boards and cart shells.

Atari repros have been using Melody PCB boards for a while, although I wish they'd be more widely available.

 

[CartridgeBlower]

So this is basically a lot like when collectors kicked up a fuss about digital PSN versions of PS1 games or HD remasters of PS2 games being released because it lowered the exchange value of their collected copies? No sympathy.

What? It's nothing like that. This is quite the ignorant post...

 

[jay]

I'm not sure I understand the OP. Are you for or against burning over games and selling the result as an original?

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Destructive mod jobs such as those RGB hackjobs for NES systems that used the PC10 chip are also pretty damn annoying, but at least it seems that the NES scene has found alternatives.

Even if they hadn't, I don't think much of anything of value would have been lost on that specific front. The Playchoice system was one of the lowest of the low quarter-sucking arcade mechanisms around. (Versus boards were a different story, though...)

This thread reminds me that I need to get around to making an instruction manual PDF for a project on my agenda. I extracted the official English ROM of Monster World IV from the Virtual Console and aim to play that on a real Genesis someday. I want to go all out with the packaging, too. =)

 

[ALM5252]

I wouldn't mind getting some N64 repros.

I dislike the fact that I go to Flea Markets, yard sales, etc and just because it has Mario on the cover instantly makes the game 25 - 50 dollars. I would assume that those would be really common and would thus be a more reasonable price (most of the time).

Also, I don't like people going for the eBay price. If that's what they're aiming for, they should sell on eBay instead.

But then again, Supply and Demand. Even though these used game places pretty much hoard them for top dollar. :/

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

As long as every game exists somewhere digitally and can be preserved and spread around that way, I don't give an F about collectors. Games are for the people, baby!

 

[shuri]

See Tempty, now that's cool as hell and I'm all about it. It's just destroying old legit games that I'm not too hot about.

Especially when it's to resell lots of them as rare expensive (yet fake) games.

 

[Teknoman]

Even if they hadn't, I don't think much of anything of value would have been lost on that specific front. The Playchoice system was one of the lowest of the low quarter-sucking arcade mechanisms around. (Versus boards were a different story, though...)

This thread reminds me that I need to get around to making an instruction manual PDF for a project on my agenda. I extracted the official English ROM of Monster World IV from the Virtual Console and aim to play that on a real Genesis someday. I want to go all out with the packaging, too. =)

Definitely more power to you there!

 

[KojiKnight]

I'm not sure I understand the OP. Are you for or against burning over games and selling the result as an original?

He's against destroying original games by converting them into more popular/rarer games that sell for better. He's also against people selling these repros as originals.

In the former case, I say it's a good thing people are recycling the board otherwise a lot of them would be just wasting space. The latter is of course bad because it's misrepresenting what you're selling.

 

[DragonSworne]

Why can't you just repro or convert it back?

 

[Tempy]

I do agree that selling repros as originals is bad and if on eBay, should be reported as selling bootlegs.

I've only made some repros for personal use, and even then I put "repro" on the label.

I'm planning to make more repros in the future, but using these boards: http://www.infiniteneslives.com/products.php

Should save a whole lot of rewiring shenanigans and no original games are scavenged.

 

[Kyzer]

Money makes the world go round

 

[IrishNinja]

Of course not! But it's not helping.

Also, it's not copies of Bill Laimbeer's Combat Baseketball that are being killed. It's copies of great classics from the Street Fighter franchise and others. It hurts a bit more!

Some guy wants to play Street Alpha 3? well too bad, all the good boards were bought by the same crew and are being converted into some other 'rare' game. Certain games can be converted more easily into certain titles. It sucks if you want to buy legit stuff to play them.

actually, it was Bill Laimbeer's in my case; i supplied the donor carts. i'm quite specific in my repros.

now dudes hoarding & price-fixing a particular market is a huge problem and i suspect a big part of the rising bubble in various ebay scenes right now, so yeah, combining that with destroying Alpha 3 boards and you've a villain like Dion of NGF.

When they make labels and reproductions and pass them off as originals (thus making huge money), is where the line is crossed. If you want to reproduce/translate a Japanese only game for a US SNES, that's fine as everybody knows it's not an original.

What's not cool: Selling repros and modified games as originals.

exactly this - even if some argue you should know there was no Secret of Mana 2 for the US SNES, it's still scummy and i can see reporting those dudes.
letting people know you destroyed gunsmithx's childhood copy of Tecmo Super Bowl to have another copy of Uniracers is totally cool by me though.

This thread reminds me that I need to get around to making an instruction manual PDF for a project on my agenda. I extracted the official English ROM of Monster World IV from the Virtual Console and aim to play that on a real Genesis someday. I want to go all out with the packaging, too. =)

this is pretty cool 6, post along as you do this project man!

I used to work at a game store. The world would be better off with Sweet Home and Mother 1 repros than a couple million unwanted copies of Jordan vs. Bird: One On One.

fuckin' thank you

Why can't you just repro or convert it back?

because even people who don't understand the ship of theseus are bothered by the dilemma
this is seriously the heart of the matter right here

 

[Mihos]

Why can't you just repro or convert it back?

Some mods are destructive.

I am OK with reproductions as long as they are sold as reproductions. If I was to buy what I though was the rare Atlantis 2 cart and found it was just a repro-stuffed in the original case, that is just straight up illegal.

 

[Sectorseven]

This trend will burn itself out. There's only so many people who actually want those more obscure games, and even if demand were to grow it's easy enough for supply to catch up.

It's kind of like being in a world where you can transmute lead into gold, except way less people want gold.

 

[Coffee Dog]

Repros are awesome. They enable more people to play hard to find games.

 

[Waylon Drums]

So people bought something for themselves and used their property the way they wished...and you're upset at them. Got it.

 

[MrCunningham]

I have mixed feelings on this... on one hand I don't mind repos at all, and I think they are a great way to own physical copies of older games without paying an arm and a leg for them. On the other hand, I can see the dilemma with sacrificing original cartridges and arcade boards and making them even harder to come by. Thankfully on the 16-bit side EA had a myriad of annual sports cartridges that could be eradicated from planet earth and be recycled into something more worthy.

 

[-KRS-]

The only thing I don't get about repro/translation hack carts is why bother with them when there are flashcarts available? It's not the real thing anyway.

 

[IrishNinja]

The only thing I don't get about repro/translation hack carts is why bother with them when there are flashcarts available? It's not the real thing anyway.

a) flashcarts are expensive
b) nothing's real bro, life is about approximations

 

[MoxManiac]

Your prices are largely wrong; I got MSH, MSHvSF, and Xmen vs. SF boards (ebay) last year for under 100 each, more like $70-80 apiece. The alpha games are usually around $100-200, when they actually pop up. Where are you getting these prices?

 

[Danny Dudekisser]

Eh. On the one hand, I think repros are dumb... but on the other hand, something like the Analogue NT requires Famicoms to be gutted, and I'm all for it.

Then again, the former case wastes carts to make a fake piece of shit. The latter uses real hardware to make something better.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

The only thing I don't get about repro/translation hack carts is why bother with them when there are flashcarts available? It's not the real thing anyway.

Aesthetic appeal and consistency.

Besides, in the specific case I want to work on at the moment, it *is* the real thing. MW4 was officially translated for last-gen download services 18 years after its initial release. It's a translation romhack, but one made in an official capacity by the publisher. I'd rather back-port that specific version to the intended hardware than play it on an emulator if given the option. And have it fit in on the shelf among my other games, to boot.

 

[-KRS-]

a) flashcarts are expensive
b) nothing's real bro, life is about approximations

They're not THAT expensive though. Especially since you won't have to buy a bunch of repros to play the games you want to play, even if it is cheaper per individual repro cart. And I think a flashcart is something most collectors would want for their retro systems anyway.

Aesthetic appeal and consistency.

Besides, in the specific case I want to work on at the moment, it *is* the real thing. MW4 was officially translated for last-gen download services 18 years after its initial release. It's a translation romhack, but one made in an official capacity by the publisher. I'd rather back-port that to the intended hardware than play it on an emulator if given the option. And have it fit in on the shelf among my other games, to boot.

I can understand wanting something on your shelves to display and whatnot, but I could also just buy the Japanese release for displaying on my shelf if I want and play a translation hack of it using a flashcart.

 

[IrishNinja]

They're not THAT expensive though. Especially since you won't have to buy a bunch of repros to play the games you want to play, even if it is cheaper per individual repro cart. And I think a flashcart is something most collectors would want for their retro systems anyway.

eh, they're kind've expensive...but you're right, ive got about 10 or so repros and i couldve bought a flashcart or two for about as much, i fully intend to down the line, as they are neat for stuff like betas, fan-made games & the like.

Then again, the former case wastes carts to make a fake piece of shit. The latter uses real hardware to make something better.

alternate take: the former makes neat carts for some of us, the latter makes fake expensive shit. different strokes!

 

[Grief.exe]

Relax.

NES/SNES repros are hopefully shifting more towards using brand-new boards and cart shells.

Atari repros have been using Melody PCB boards for a while, although I wish they'd be more widely available.

That is very cool.

 

[Not Spaceghost]

For a moment I thought this thread was about people who take SNES games and turn them into externals HDD cases.

But yeah converts are a bit of a problem. It reminds me of an issue that large format photography buffs have with star wars fans.

The Graflex 3 cell flash unit and the 3 cell Micro Precision Products Flash units are used as the base for Luke's and Darth Vader's saber hilts respectively. Since star wars fans figured this out they've been buying them up and converting them into props, this has driven up the price for these things which are honestly not worth more than $80 to an avid collector, to about $350 and almost $800 in some extreme cases.

Thankfully most of the modifications are external and don't actually ruin the function of the flash unit, but there are fans that will gut these things to install sound boards and a blade which lights up effectively ruining the flash unit.

But yeah just thought I'd shareee~~~