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Repros and Converts are KILLING retro-collecting and making ORIGINAL CARTS extinct
- Thread starter shuri
- Start date
The donor cart has to match what the game being repro'd requires. You can't just use any cart for any game.
captmcblack
Member
I'm okay with repros in certain contexts.
If they're sold that way, that's all good. If they're impossible cartridges to own under regular circumstances (like Recca, or Earthbound Zero), that's cool too.
If the object of the game is to take original stuff off the market and sell the repros only at inflated prices, that's not cool. If the object of the game is to sell repros as originals, and sell them for original/inflated price, that's also not cool.
If they're sold that way, that's all good. If they're impossible cartridges to own under regular circumstances (like Recca, or Earthbound Zero), that's cool too.
If the object of the game is to take original stuff off the market and sell the repros only at inflated prices, that's not cool. If the object of the game is to sell repros as originals, and sell them for original/inflated price, that's also not cool.
sixteen-bit
Member
I never knew about this. That's an interesting anecdote.
Not to sidetrack this thread completely, and no personal offense intended, but this one sentence right here is the reason why the world has gone to shit in many ways in my opinion.
Buying something and therefore owning it should not mean that the owner has no responsibility to make good use of the product, especially if it is a rare material or good that in a way belongs to humanity as a whole. Buying something does not take that product out of the circular economic loop of resources and goods, it only shifts it from producer to consumer (to ideally then shift back to a next producer or consumer who then puts new value into (parts of) the product if we follow circular economic thinking).
I am always baffled by people who just carelessly throw away or destroy things they no longer want instead of giving them away or re-using them in some way, and all just because they paid for them originally. If they bought it, that does not give them the right to label it as worthless for everyone after they are done with it, at least that is what I feel. I realize this view won't win me many friends, but I'll accept that.
On the topic at hand: one the one side the recycling / refurbishing of unwanted old games to create cartridges or boards for games people do want seems like a good thing fully in line with circular economical recycling principles etc.; on the other hand it could indeed spiral out of control and lead to a scarcity of games that people might, at some point, want again by giving all the power to the current sellers of those items to determine what old games are ok to refurbish.
IrishNinja
Member
crossing over into some ol' first sale doctrine shit now
The crux of the issue, and what I suspect is what has shuri upset, is that games that ARE wanted (in this case, arcade boards for popular/good games) are being gutted, recycled, repurposed, whatever descriptive word you want to use.
I doubt anyone cares if that 50 cent madden 94 cartridge is gutted, but it is a tragedy to see a perfectly functional Marvel vs. Capcom or Street Fighter Alpha 3 board get gutted or killed to create a bootleg of another game that's rare (that might not even be good)
IrishNinja
Member
Yeah, I get that and I agree that that indeed is not an ideal situation. My point to add was that it always remains a bit of a gamble to make a final call on which game has value and which game can be gutted without remorse. We might right now all agree that gutting a MvC or Alpha 3 board is a bad thing but a Madden 94 cartridge is acceptable, but how sure are we down the line that this will never change and that this Madden 94 cartridge will have no value whatsoever? Ok, I admit, in this case it seems a pretty safe assumption our perception won't turn around like that, but for some arcade boards it might be actually be trickier to determine this I would think. Then again, I'm surely no expert on this issue so maybe there is an universally true list of arcade boards that are in demand and considered valuable and a similar list for boards that only have value as far as their parts go. Going by the fact that sellers seem to be going about their gutting business willy nilly just to get profit, I'd wager on such a list not existing or not being used at least.
But carry on with the conversation people, by all means carry on and ignore me.
Edit: added some thoughts, but then removed them again as to not sidetrack us any further.
The things is that all these games have had their roms properly dumped and preserved. All that is happening is that shells and PCBs are being recycled. There are enough people with an interest in this stuff that a means will be found to recreate the exact experience with replacement hardware. There are already examples of it in this thread.
But replacement hardware is not original hardware, and having the original hardware is why people collect in the first place is it not? People taking PCBs and repurposing them into other games will make it harder to obtain those games. And if what you say is the case, then why aren't these guys who are repurposing the hardware making their own replacement hardware instead? Because they'd make less of a profit that way that's why, and that's all they care about.
PixyJunket
Member
Those are really good looking and both are games I've wanted repros of.
Is it mostly collectors who are buying repros? I thought they'd want the real thing while the purist gamer who want's the arcade / console experience would choose a repro / bootleg if the price was right.
I feel that if a game is getting played then it's a good thing. My bug bear is with sealed collectors who don't play their collection.
I feel that if a game is getting played then it's a good thing. My bug bear is with sealed collectors who don't play their collection.
Fox Mulder
Member
I'd think expensive reproductions as a market will burn itself out.
the hardcore collecting community knows what to look for and has a line as to what's acceptable for reproduction games. It's a race to the bottom in prices with sites that do them now.
I wonder how many average people are out there spending hundreds of dollars on old games blindly without caring what they buy
the hardcore collecting community knows what to look for and has a line as to what's acceptable for reproduction games. It's a race to the bottom in prices with sites that do them now.
I wonder how many average people are out there spending hundreds of dollars on old games blindly without caring what they buy
People do this with cars, motorcycles, furniture and many other things. Purists are always angry something they consider intrinsically valuable is "repurposed"
I was thinking more along the lines of carts being used to house new PCBs. yeah, it wouldn't work if you were just trying to flash straight across.
IrishNinja
Member
yeah, stuff like this is why i don't identify myself as a collector at all
also yeah, to each their own but sealed/unplayed collections drive me batty too
PixyJunket
Member
I don't mind identifying myself as a collector, because I do collect, but I definitely collect to play.
IrishNinja
Member
see, i don't think a lotta collectors do, especially the manic ones after full sets of terrible games they don't even like - and this thread kinda reinforces another angle, as repros should be "useless" to a collector, whereas i have Mother 0 on pause and couldn't disagree more
Even though I personally am not interested in them, I wouldn't say they're useless. They're obviously valuable to others. Hell I wouldn't exactly mind having a repro of Earthbound Zero myself. But I'd value having the Japanese release more since that's an actual official release of the game. I just like the things in my collection to be original, official releases because that's what I collect. I probably wouldn't buy Mother specifically though, since I don't tend to buy games I wouldn't be able to understand enough to play. And since I do have a flashcart I'm fine with playing it on that if I ever wanted to play it.
It's also this mentality that makes me not at all interested in those custom game cases people have, even though they do look very nice.
this is not how it works in the real world. stop with the uninformed doom and gloom please. ebay is NOT the barometer for reasonable arcade board prices and it NEVER has been. to even make the claim that the inflation of the entire retro market comes down to your one view of cannibalization...just makes no sense.
next you are going to freak out about UD consolizing CPS2 boards. do you even own a cab/supergun to warrant the overreaction on this issue?
it took me a year (starting last summer) to build a collection of every CPS2 board (except 1) and it took little effort beyond checking certain websites and making the right contacts. It didn't "suck" at all like the way you are speculating. I paid extra on some boards to make sure they were originals and hate bootlegs/conversions, but it seems like you are trying to raise a fire about an arcade market you have no idea about.
and progear isnt "some steampunk shooter". its one of caves few horizontal shmups and their only CPS2 title.
Nostremitus
Member
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't repros just pirated software saved on a physical medium?
And I don't buy the whole "it's ok because it's so rare" argument. That's like saying it's ok to create a fake Monet painting and pass it off as legitimate because it's not fair that the real ones are so rare.
And I don't buy the whole "it's ok because it's so rare" argument. That's like saying it's ok to create a fake Monet painting and pass it off as legitimate because it's not fair that the real ones are so rare.
It's been happening a bit in classic stuff too.
Brazil was well known for it's weird, Brazil only cartridges for the Master System. Such as the Brazil version of Sonic Blast officially released by Tec Toy:
In the past few years some hackers have Made Master System versions of some older Game Gear only titles, like Sonic Triple Trouble and Sonic Drift 2, and we've seen some repros of these as cartridges which are pretty cool, but also more clearly repros:
But on Ebay we're now seeing people selling Repros of these carts pretending to be official Tec Toy releases:
These are repro carts designed to look Like Tec Toy, and they're trying to sell them for 200-300 bucks a pop.
Brazil was well known for it's weird, Brazil only cartridges for the Master System. Such as the Brazil version of Sonic Blast officially released by Tec Toy:
In the past few years some hackers have Made Master System versions of some older Game Gear only titles, like Sonic Triple Trouble and Sonic Drift 2, and we've seen some repros of these as cartridges which are pretty cool, but also more clearly repros:
But on Ebay we're now seeing people selling Repros of these carts pretending to be official Tec Toy releases:
These are repro carts designed to look Like Tec Toy, and they're trying to sell them for 200-300 bucks a pop.
XANDER CAGE
Member
I'm pretty sure a lot of these games are 1. ROMs dumped by owners with an original and 2. publisher-less abandonware or about twenty years out of print. Which, sure, is illegal by the book, but if we're going to have that discussion we should probably talk about the complete lack of archival work being done for older video games like this. Using a film print of Star Wars is illegal too, but that doesn't invalidate the worth of the various archivist projects surrounding that currently.
I'd say it's more akin to painting a Monet facsimile over a Thomas Kinkade print, which I'm pretty okay with as long as you tell people it's a copy.
I do wonder if any sort of legal statements about this kind of thing are going to happen, or if any game companies are going to take it upon themselves (or hire a third party) to properly do some archival and preservation work, or if this is forever going to be the domain of gray market enthusiasts.
Nostremitus
Member
1 a ROM dump is fine until you decide to sell copies of it.
2. Publisherless abandonware is the worst type of travesty for a real collector. Collector value is based on scarcity. People selling these repros are devaluing the real authentic collectors' items. It's illegal because you are stealing from the actual collectors by artificially devaluing their property. It has nothing to do with the original publisher. The fact that it's abandonware is why it's valuable to begin with. It's illegal for a very real reason, not just a "by the book" technicality.
IrishNinja
Member
and this is why i don't identify with collectors: i literally could not care less about this issue. games were meant to be played; i only owe the developers/publishers, not OCD collectors. ugh.
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
Not to mention that abandonware is a bullshit concept that has no actual basis in copyright law.
Though, I suppose it's somewhat ironic that I don't identify with the lawyers, nor the collectors when it comes to this sort of stuff.
Nostremitus
Member
So... You're entitled to play these games despite not being willing to pay for the authentic item? How is that any different than ripping off any other piece of art? I'm sorry, but your argument just sounds like self entitled whining to me. Just because something exists doesn't mean you're entitled to it. Ripping off other people's property just because you're jealous that they have it and therefor you don't get to play it is kind of sad. To be fair, I'm not a collector, but this mentality is just disheartening to me.
IrishNinja
Member
and there's the entitlement trope too, you're trying way too hard here.
let's flip your warped perspective: your precious collector community buys expensive, likely marked-up items second-hand, giving no actual money to the creators. why exactly is this useless lot entitled to tell me what to do with items ive purchased? a minute ago, you were so concerned with the law, but not the first sale doctrine, clearly.
i didn't once tell anyone to treat my medium of art like a little stock market, why then should i worry about "devaluing" their investment?
I'm not envious of the neurotic, i pity them. and i certainly don't base my decisions around their pathetic whims.
MrCunningham
Member
What are you talking about? It's not a criminal act to devalue the price of second hand goods, just like there is no law against over inflating the price of a second hand item because there happens to be a frothing demand for it.
Yeah, this was also the case for a lot of older unauthorized music CD mixes,. The people who would produce them would only charge money for the disc and artwork, and not the contents of the disc.
Reproduction cartridges that are clearly marked as such will never devalue the prices of the original games. If anything, it will only make the originals more special and only increase their value. But then there's also the case where some groups/ people will just create unmarked reproduction carts and just try to pass them off as the real thing on Ebay, making the originals harder to find.
yeah abandonware has never really held up as defense for distributing material that is still owned by a copyright holder. Though there are a few public domain ROMS and home brews out there that can be resold in cartridge form that are under fair use.
AcademicSaucer
Member
NPD was right, im casual after all
IrishNinja
Member
again: dude is not concerned with the law, or games as art i'd wager. condescension and collector defense force are okay though.
yeah, common sense would kind've dictate this, as those who just want the experience can run a ROM on most anything this side of a toaster, so of the niche market like myself who might dig a repro, naturally an original - where it exists, as all of my repros are fan translations of otherwise cheap japanese RPGs/etc - would still have a high demand for original copies, if not moreso.
If I had enough money I would hunt down the licensing and reprint every rare title ever, one by one, to fuck with horrible collectors. It would be my mission in life to devalue every single video game.
Brock_Landers
Member
I'm still trying to figure out how SNES reproductions have caused anything to increase in price
I mean sure, there's the 10 Haganes I cannibalized to feed my addiction to Mahjong and Pachinko repros, but that was a small price to pay!
I mean sure, there's the 10 Haganes I cannibalized to feed my addiction to Mahjong and Pachinko repros, but that was a small price to pay!
XANDER CAGE
Member
Oh no, those poor collectors!
I'm also pretty sure that's also not the reason it's illegal and that it entirely has to do with rights.
I have to be honest here, I did not understand like... 70% of what you're talking about. What the hell are converts, repros, and Pro gears?
Edit: Also I saw you say something About E.V.O on Snes, I have that shit right here. My kid was playing with it, you mean to tell it's worth something lol.
Edit: Also I saw you say something About E.V.O on Snes, I have that shit right here. My kid was playing with it, you mean to tell it's worth something lol.
The cartridge itself is worth $$100 - $150, maybe more. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
If you have the box and all the papers then it's worth quite a lot.
Nah just have the cart. Had no idea it was worth anything lol. Guess he won't be using that anymore.
PetriP-TNT
Member
If video games are anything like vinyl records, repros (reissues) (and bootlegs) do not devalue the original but usually quite the opposite: reissues bring the originals to more peoples attention which most often makes the originals more valuable. Of course repro carts are nothing compared to the scale of reissues of records, but my point still stands.
Kobun Heat
Member
I think everyone's right -- you as the original owner of an item can do whatever you want with it, and the mass creation of repros is a shame for the actual preservation of history. You're taking an authentic game and making an art project out of it. It's like kids putting their baseball cards into the spokes of their bicycles in the 50's though. We destroy the things that are worthless to us, and they'll come back later and end up being worth too much money to destroy.
I think that the fact that "Terranigma Reproduction" was listed in this 2009 list of the rarest Super Nintendo games is fucking outrageously stupid for many reasons that you can probably guess.
I think that the fact that "Terranigma Reproduction" was listed in this 2009 list of the rarest Super Nintendo games is fucking outrageously stupid for many reasons that you can probably guess.
As a retro collector myself I definitely find these practices to be abhorrent. Most of my library was assembled before massive price hikes started but I do dislike seeing so many games increase so rapidly in value as a result of people destroying carts to create repros.
This is definitely one of those cases when I wish people would just resort to emulation rather than buying repros.
For the moment, I've actually started focusing on OG Xbox games. There were more interesting gems on the system than I realized and although I purchased many of them when they were first released there were plenty that I missed. What makes it so fun to collect for is the insanely low prices of everything. It encourages exploration of the library and can lead to some neat discoveries. The games aren't really considered retro yet, just old and as a result it's very easy to obtain them.
This is definitely one of those cases when I wish people would just resort to emulation rather than buying repros.
For the moment, I've actually started focusing on OG Xbox games. There were more interesting gems on the system than I realized and although I purchased many of them when they were first released there were plenty that I missed. What makes it so fun to collect for is the insanely low prices of everything. It encourages exploration of the library and can lead to some neat discoveries. The games aren't really considered retro yet, just old and as a result it's very easy to obtain them.
PetriP-TNT
Member
Is there any proof of this what-so-ever? It's not like they are ripping off Chrono Trigger carts to make Earthbound carts.
IrishNinja
Member
Kohler i hear you but i wish i had a big bike i could put copies of Madden '96 into, that'd be pretty baller
for real though, that terranigma repro on that list is pretty hilarious. ive got one myself and i like to think i did my part to help burst the SNES bubble, but i didn't.
there is zero proof of correlation = causation here, shame to hear you're buying OP's twisted logic. Hagane didn't go up because people started repro'ing it; if anything, youtube was an actual factor.
OG xbox is a great scene right now though, agreed.
for real though, that terranigma repro on that list is pretty hilarious. ive got one myself and i like to think i did my part to help burst the SNES bubble, but i didn't.
there is zero proof of correlation = causation here, shame to hear you're buying OP's twisted logic. Hagane didn't go up because people started repro'ing it; if anything, youtube was an actual factor.
OG xbox is a great scene right now though, agreed.
There was a guy on ebay selling Ikaruga NAOMI carts, funny thing is Ikaruga was never made into cart, only GD-ROMs.
This not only resulted to having killed ither games and erasing them from existence, but olso skyrocketed the price of Ikaruga GDs to 400$.
At the other hand you can ofc say they preserved a great game that was only available in disc form, which is easier to die.
Idk, the issue is complicated, but i agree, it's sad to kill goid games to make repros of popular titles that aren't as good.
This not only resulted to having killed ither games and erasing them from existence, but olso skyrocketed the price of Ikaruga GDs to 400$.
At the other hand you can ofc say they preserved a great game that was only available in disc form, which is easier to die.
Idk, the issue is complicated, but i agree, it's sad to kill goid games to make repros of popular titles that aren't as good.
Perhaps it isn't the result of the repro scene but just in the last three years I've seen huge numbers of games (SNES in particular) explode in value. I suppose it could be totally unrelated.
IrishNinja
Member
oh, this is undeniably true - the smaller print markets like Turbografx, Saturn etc are being hit pretty hard too. it's not a great time to be picking up classic games for most systems, i'm kinda pulling out for the time myself. shit has to either peak/level off or give sometime.
PetriP-TNT
Member
It's not a result of the repro scene, it's totally unrelated.