Retro AV Club Thread 2: Classic Gaming Done Right!

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Couple more framemeister questions if you'll indulge me:

How to check what firmware I'm running? I'm assuming I should be using the latest?

Is there a gd setting for fast motion? I'm playing some nes shooters and sonic and was wondering what I should set to. I used the 240p options on junkerhq
 
mikespit1200 said:
Couple more framemeister questions if you'll indulge me:

How to check what firmware I'm running? I'm assuming I should be using the latest?

Is there a gd setting for fast motion? I'm playing some nes shooters and sonic and was wondering what I should set to. I used the 240p options on junkerhq
Click to expand...
I'm not sure how to check firmware off the top of my head. Check the status menu. I would expect that you are not on the current firmware and should update. there are instructions on the wiki.

I don't think you should need any specific settings for faster scenes. The framemeister doesn't reall care about the framerate of your source, and the actual speed at which sprites and backgrounds scroll by shouldn't impact the framemeister, either.
 
So, I have a question for the good folks here. I'm about to get a much better PC, and therefore I tried upgrading my MAME emulator to access all the effects I couldn't use before, such as HLSL (for now, I'm using the raster.ini and vector.ini files given by default with MAME 0.178). I'm currently designing artworks for each game I have so the games are displayed at the perfect resolution on my widescreen 1920x1080 TV, but I noticed something weird while working on my 1280x1024 monitor:

When I display vector games embedded in their widescreen artwork on my 5:4 1280x1024 monitor (and therefore appearing on a quite tiny area in the middle of the screen), the bloom effect seems intense relatively to the game. But when I display the same game with the same settings with the artwork cropped, the bloom effect is extremely minimal.

The bloom effect apparently doesn't scale to the game itself, and is instead absolute. Why is that? Raster games have effects that seem to scale according to the games (to my naked eye), but not vectors? What effects are absolute vs. relative to game area on screen?

Thanks.
 
mikespit1200 said:
Couple more framemeister questions if you'll indulge me:

How to check what firmware I'm running? I'm assuming I should be using the latest?

Is there a gd setting for fast motion? I'm playing some nes shooters and sonic and was wondering what I should set to. I used the 240p options on junkerhq
Click to expand...

If I remember right the end of the full status pages will let you know the firmware. It seems they dont send them out on the latest firmware so you most likely will have to update.

The settings are all about resolution and type of image you're getting like progressive vs interlaced. There's no fast motion vs slower motion settings. It doesn't work like that.

The settings you use should be based on the console you're using. You can save profiles for each console (up to 20) on a microSD card (the same one you'd use to upgrade the firmware). Google FirebrandX for profiles, or ImplantGames' youtube series.
 
Got my PVM (purchased from fellow GAFfer gingerbeardman) up and running with all the cables, and some decent speakers for the sound as it's only got mono. (Bose speakers, I like them, please don't come at me audio freaks)

mg3Dtrv.jpg
Click to expand...

Some productive searching on service menus got the picture perfectly centred, and it's just beautiful. I could finally play games as well as I remembered too, as I'm sure the lag on my HDTV was what was contributing to me thinking games like Starfox were completely uncontrollable. Just played it to completion and looking forward to more where this came from!
 
So I just had my SNES setup done, and I realize that the CRT I got is just mono. I guess that for every game that doesn't have a sound option, I'm basically screwed right ?
Well, I can deal with the slight distorsion on the left side of the panel, but it's too bad for the sound. :(
 
Putosaure said:
So I just had my SNES setup done, and I realize that the CRT I got is just mono. I guess that for every game that doesn't have a sound option, I'm basically screwed right ?
Well, I can deal with the slight distorsion on the left side of the panel, but it's too bad for the sound. :(
Click to expand...

What cable are you using? My monitor is mono too but I use a cable which lets me separate out the audio to some speakers via red and white RCA phono jacks. You could use something like this for SCART input with separate sound (linked site is out of stock but just to give you the idea):

https://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk...t-cable-ntsc-tv-lead-wire-cord-with-rca-sound
 
So glad I bumped into this thread. I used to check the other one all the time even though I don't have a PVM yet. Hopefully soon. Or a Framemeister!
 
sugarless said:
What cable are you using? My monitor is mono too but I use a cable which lets me separate out the audio to some speakers via red and white RCA phono jacks. You could use something like this for SCART input with separate sound (linked site is out of stock but just to give you the idea):

https://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk...t-cable-ntsc-tv-lead-wire-cord-with-rca-sound
Click to expand...

I'm using a PAL SCART, so yeah. Basically I would prefer to rely on the original speakers of the TV which I feel are more authentic... I guess what I should do is this: find a SNES adapter with the three connectors (white, yellow and red), then find a cable which could get the stereo sound into a mono sound, but with the same two cables as an output, and then a three pins to SCART adapter.

Or try to find another CRT but stereo this time around. :D
 
sugarless said:
Got my PVM (purchased from fellow GAFfer gingerbeardman) up and running with all the cables, and some decent speakers for the sound as it's only got mono. (Bose speakers, I like them, please don't come at me audio freaks)

Some productive searching on service menus got the picture perfectly centred, and it's just beautiful. I could finally play games as well as I remembered too, as I'm sure the lag on my HDTV was what was contributing to me thinking games like Starfox were completely uncontrollable. Just played it to completion and looking forward to more where this came from!
Click to expand...
looks great! Glad you're happy with it and are having fun.
 
AAMARMO said:
Im currently looking into making a Retro setup but i dont know what PVM to get in the UK.
Click to expand...

You can make a perfectly good retro setup in the UK with a nice consumer CRT TV. Sony Trinitrons are generally considered very good models, but Panasonic and Philips have quality models and I even had a lesser-known brand Thomson that was equal to my Trinitron on picture quality. Just get a CRT with RGB scart and 60 hz option (at least in Finland some models only have 50hz) and you're set.

But if you really want a PVM feel free, but it will cost you more and probably harder to find. Search local gaming groups, broadcast company auctions & clearances and such. Look for one that outputs RGB.

sugarless said:
Got my PVM (purchased from fellow GAFfer gingerbeardman) up and running with all the cables, and some decent speakers for the sound as it's only got mono. (Bose speakers, I like them, please don't come at me audio freaks)

Some productive searching on service menus got the picture perfectly centred, and it's just beautiful. I could finally play games as well as I remembered too, as I'm sure the lag on my HDTV was what was contributing to me thinking games like Starfox were completely uncontrollable. Just played it to completion and looking forward to more where this came from!
Click to expand...

Looking very crisp and colorful there.

Putosaure said:
Or try to find another CRT but stereo this time around. :D
Click to expand...

Maybe you can plug a pair of speakers to the headphone jack of your CRT? It's by no means optimal but that's what I did when I had a mono Trinitron.
 
Man, I wish someone in Finland would offer that kind of service. I would like a second PVM for backup and also to put in permanent TATE mode for various Saturn shmups.
 
Zello said:
You can make a perfectly good retro setup in the UK with a nice consumer CRT TV. Sony Trinitrons are generally considered very good models, but Panasonic and Philips have quality models and I even had a lesser-known brand Thomson that was equal to my Trinitron on picture quality.
Click to expand...
Very true. I've kind off given up on PVM, BVM hunting. And try to find consumer TV sets in very good shape instead. Not to say I won't buy one when the chance arrives but not at all cost.

My personal tier list looks like this.

S tier CRTs: Broadcasting monitors, medical monitors, personal computer monitors (comodore amiga etc).
Top tier consumer TV's: Bang & Olufsen, Loewe, Sharp, JVC, Mitsubishi and of course Sony Trinitrons.
Mid tier consumer TV's (still good but quality depends on a model): Samsung, Hitachi, Panasonic, Philips, Thomson, Sanyo, Grundig. Thomson and Sanyo are very prone to failure though and Phillips to a lesser degree.

Of course the most important factor is how heavily it was used in the past. CRTs degrade with time. So it's best to pick typical guest room, bed room units, that are usually smaller (20-21"). Bigger ones almost always were used as main TVs in the household. So it's harder to get them in good condition.
 
Picked up a PVM-14N6U and I love it. Everything looks fantastic, even more so than my framemeister. There is just something good about playing real hardware on a good CRT.

Just one question. The screen is a little bit off center. It's not a big deal, but is it a lot of trouble to unscrew the front panel and shift the screen over a bit?
 
Question: Is 480p always better than 480i? Now, hold your horses before you answer -- here's why I'm kind of unsure:

So, I want to play REmake again. I used to have the Gamecube version, I sold it and bought the Wii version, and I'm kinda considering getting the GC version again because the Wii looks so bad. The difference between the two releases is that the GC version is 480i while the Wii version is 480p. But in a scenario like that, is there necessarily more picture information in the Wii version than in the GC version? Like, is the Wii version just using a ghetto method of filling in picture information when I have it set to output that game at 480p that doesn't actually improve detail?
 
purdobol said:
Very true. I've kind off given up on PVM, BVM hunting. And try to find consumer TV sets in very good shape instead. Not to say I won't buy one when the chance arrives but not at all cost.
Click to expand...

Same. They are too well known now so people that make it their living are hunting them down and I just can't compete.
 
Pappasman said:
Picked up a PVM-14N6U and I love it. Everything looks fantastic, even more so than my framemeister. There is just something good about playing real hardware on a good CRT.

Just one question. The screen is a little bit off center. It's not a big deal, but is it a lot of trouble to unscrew the front panel and shift the screen over a bit?
Click to expand...

Is it really physically off centre or is the image shown off centre? If the latter, you can use the service menu to move it without having to make any physical adjustments. The Sony PVMs have mostly common settings so you should be able to access the service menu by pressing Menu once to show the normal menu, then press Menu and Degauss at the same. You can scroll through with Menu/Enter, and adjust values with the up and down arrow buttons. There is V CENTER and I think the setting for horizontal centring is called VIDEO PHASE or H PHASE or similar. To save changes press Degauss. It will say WRITE, so press Degauss again to commit settings to RAM (wait until the asterisk displays then disappears before turning off the monitor).
 
Chacranajxy said:
Question: Is 480p always better than 480i? Now, hold your horses before you answer -- here's why I'm kind of unsure:

So, I want to play REmake again. I used to have the Gamecube version, I sold it and bought the Wii version, and I'm kinda considering getting the GC version again because the Wii looks so bad. The difference between the two releases is that the GC version is 480i while the Wii version is 480p. But in a scenario like that, is there necessarily more picture information in the Wii version than in the GC version? Like, is the Wii version just using a ghetto method of filling in picture information when I have it set to output that game at 480p that doesn't actually improve detail?
Click to expand...
There's something profoundly broken about the way the Wii version of REmake outputs it's image.

It's been a while since I fiddled with that but try 4:3 mode 480p... failing that you can set it to 4:3 480i and it looks the same as the GC version, and with good deinterlacing it looks nice.
 
sugarless said:
Is it really physically off centre or is the image shown off centre? If the latter, you can use the service menu to move it without having to make any physical adjustments. The Sony PVMs have mostly common settings so you should be able to access the service menu by pressing Menu once to show the normal menu, then press Menu and Degauss at the same. You can scroll through with Menu/Enter, and adjust values with the up and down arrow buttons. There is V CENTER and I think the setting for horizontal centring is called VIDEO PHASE or H PHASE or similar. To save changes press Degauss. It will say WRITE, so press Degauss again to commit settings to RAM (wait until the asterisk displays then disappears before turning off the monitor).
Click to expand...

It's physically shifted. I used the service menu to make some adjustments last night and I'm really happy with it, but the physical display itself is slightly off center. It doesn't really bother me, but it would be nice to adjust.
 
SheepyGuy said:
There's something profoundly broken about the way the Wii version of REmake outputs it's image.

It's been a while since I fiddled with that but try 4:3 mode 480p... failing that you can set it to 4:3 480i and it looks the same as the GC version, and with good deinterlacing it looks nice.
Click to expand...

With that game and a couple of other 4:3 games like Trauma Center, I do set the Wii to 4:3 mode. Still looks kinda poor, though.

But the goal is to figure out if there's any actual improvement with the 480p Wii version. If the solution is just to set it to 480i, I might as well just get the GC version anyway... Especially since I just plain like the system better.
 
Chacranajxy said:
Question: Is 480p always better than 480i? Now, hold your horses before you answer -- here's why I'm kind of unsure:

So, I want to play REmake again. I used to have the Gamecube version, I sold it and bought the Wii version, and I'm kinda considering getting the GC version again because the Wii looks so bad. The difference between the two releases is that the GC version is 480i while the Wii version is 480p. But in a scenario like that, is there necessarily more picture information in the Wii version than in the GC version? Like, is the Wii version just using a ghetto method of filling in picture information when I have it set to output that game at 480p that doesn't actually improve detail?
Click to expand...

Technically, it's the same picture information. All assets are in 480 res, and over the 60Hz time frame, you're getting all the same information. The difference being that you'll see flicker with interlaced format on a CRT or it might look terrible if badly deinterlaced. Progressive will look more stable and it alone should not cause things to look worse. I generally just don't like the picture the Wii produces compared to GC. The DAC in the Wii is of lower quality.

Edit: Try the GC version forced to progressive. You might like that.
 
Chacranajxy said:
Question: Is 480p always better than 480i? Now, hold your horses before you answer -- here's why I'm kind of unsure:

So, I want to play REmake again. I used to have the Gamecube version, I sold it and bought the Wii version, and I'm kinda considering getting the GC version again because the Wii looks so bad. The difference between the two releases is that the GC version is 480i while the Wii version is 480p. But in a scenario like that, is there necessarily more picture information in the Wii version than in the GC version? Like, is the Wii version just using a ghetto method of filling in picture information when I have it set to output that game at 480p that doesn't actually improve detail?
Click to expand...
The only way it can be worse (apart from the slightly inferior component output of the Wii compared to the GC) is if a Wii game is widescreen, so it's stretching the same number of pixels over a larger physical space, reducing DPI. I'm guessing that's what happening here because the game's assets are in 4:3, so if running widescreen it would either stretch them or add black bars, squash them then the image gets stretched out. Set the Wii to 4:3 and it should fix it.

Some other games are ruined by this too - the Konami Rebirth games have this issue and are blurry messes if the Wii is set to widescreen, but crisp pixels if it's set to 4:3. it's actually why VC games are stretched when in widescreen, to avoid this issue (of course people complained about that because they have no idea what they are talking about).

480p is usually vastly superior to 480i on a modern fixed pixel display, but only slightly superior on a CRT.
 
Putosaure said:
I guess what I should do is this: find a SNES adapter with the three connectors (white, yellow and red), then find a cable which could get the stereo sound into a mono sound, but with the same two cables as an output, and then a three pins to SCART adapter.
Click to expand...

Composite ain't RGB man
 
Zello said:
Just get a CRT with RGB scart and 60 hz option (at least in Finland some models only have 50hz) and you're set.
Click to expand...

Wow, I've never seen a European TV rolling. Usually it only happens with ancient sets, like pre-80s ancient. Not the stuff you want for gaming.

Pappasman said:
It's physically shifted. I used the service menu to make some adjustments last night and I'm really happy with it, but the physical display itself is slightly off center. It doesn't really bother me, but it would be nice to adjust.
Click to expand...

Unless you have a death wish, I would advise against it. If you don't know what you're doing, these things can kill you. Plus exerting lateral force on the end of the tube is very likely to screw up the convergence. Try moving the screen from the outside if it really bothers you.
 
Khaz said:
Unless you have a death wish, I would advise against it. If you don't know what you're doing, these things can kill you. Plus exerting lateral force on the end of the tube is very likely to screw up the convergence. Try moving the screen from the outside if it really bothers you.
Click to expand...

Yeah that's what I thought. I knew it was dangerous so I really didn't want to do it, and now I'm not going to.
 
Khaz said:
Wow, I've never seen a European TV rolling. Usually it only happens with ancient sets, like pre-80s ancient. Not the stuff you want for gaming.
Click to expand...

If you mean the 50hz only thing it's not common but it happens. I had a perfectly good Trinitron that was only 50hz. Not an ancient model, but those 90's black curved screen Sonys. Model KV-21M3E.

Replaced with a Thomson that had 50/60 and picture quality was equal. That was my last consumer CRT before I got a PVM.
 
Putosaure said:
... find a cable which could get the stereo sound into a mono sound
Click to expand...

Could you use a Y-splitter? Never had cause to use one myself but it should funnel both channels of sound into one rather than single channel mono. (Link is just the first one that caught my eye in a search, not affiliated or able to confirm quality!)
 
Anyone with a Framemeister able to explain the following modes under screen_set? (the junkerhq.net FAQ just skips over this section for some reason).

Standard
LB
LB2
Game_LB1
Game_LB2
Smart_X1
Smart_X2
Under
Normal2

I really just need an explanation on what is happening with each of these so that I can make up my mind. I'm on the latest firmware. I have all the cables. My systems are SNES, PS1, and maybe a bit later a PS2.

My priorities are just good looking scanlines at 4:3, and picture quality. I don't mind or even prefer letterboxing so I don't need to mess with zoom etc - I am fine with using 720p mode too since it seems to look the best and sounds easiest.

And lastly I am looking for all of this with as close to native resolution scaling as possible (so no distortion). Hence the explanation on screen_set modes.
 
Thanks for that. Some interesting stuff on there like how LB stands for letterboxing which is useful to know. Also he recommends the use of the normal2 mode which I don't believe I've even seen mentioned before in any of the stuff I've read.

Still not enough detail though and it didn't even touch on half of the modes in total. I think what we really need is a detailed explanation of both what is happening and why it is happening for each mode. Will keep searching.
 
Arekuse.net has a little more context...

SCREEN_SET: different from aspect, this option allows to change the display proportions and scale; some settings will disable your aspect ratio settings until set back to STANDARD
STANDARD: this is the normal state, only aspect ratio is applied from the other menu. Select this option to disable other settings in this menu
LB: letterbox, best for wide screen television formats
LB2: same as LB, but used with PC resolutions
GAME_LB1: for portable systems to enlarge the image
GAME_LB2: same as GAME_LB1, but for PC resolutions
SMART_X1: scaling the resolution 1:1
SMART_X2: same as SMART_X1, but doubles the integer scaling
UNDER: shrinks the output image to fit into the screen
NORMAL2: improves the image in 4:3 format
Click to expand...
 
Got a memory card with FMCB so I finally got to play DVD's through RGB on PS2 hooked to the 20L5. Holy shit, I never thought DVD's could look so good, specially Studio Ghibli titles. It's like looking straight at the animation cels.
 
Roge_NES said:
Got a memory card with FMCB so I finally got to play DVD's through RGB on PS2 hooked to the 20L5. Holy shit, I never thought DVD's could look so good, specially Studio Ghibli titles. It's like looking straight at the animation cels.
Click to expand...

Does your monitor not accept component?
 
sugarless said:
Got my PVM (purchased from fellow GAFfer gingerbeardman) up and running with all the cables, and some decent speakers for the sound as it's only got mono. (Bose speakers, I like them, please don't come at me audio freaks)



Some productive searching on service menus got the picture perfectly centred, and it's just beautiful. I could finally play games as well as I remembered too, as I'm sure the lag on my HDTV was what was contributing to me thinking games like Starfox were completely uncontrollable. Just played it to completion and looking forward to more where this came from!
Click to expand...

Absolutely beautiful, as a PAL gamer I can only dream of such picture.

There is something about this image profound, as if memories from a long, long time ago suddenly come back.

Once I've got the means, I too will be investing in a PVM and NTSC consoles.
 
Tarin02543 said:
Absolutely beautiful, as a PAL gamer I can only dream of such picture.

There is something about this image profound, as if memories from a long, long time ago suddenly come back.

Once I've got the means, I too will be investing in a PVM and NTSC consoles.
Click to expand...

I just had my Megadrive, SNES and Saturn modded to play NTSC games. But if I started now I would probably get the NTSC consoles too, even though I just tend to use flashcarts nowadays.
 
Bought a PAL Panasonic CRT and I need to enter the service menu to fix the awful overscan.

When I serach for it on Google, the only thing that I find is russian sites.

I don't have the original remote.

Yeah I'm screwed.

But on the positive side, I'm playing Silent Hill 2 and enjoying it very much.
 
Brhoom said:
Bought a PAL Panasonic CRT and I need to enter the service menu to fix the awful overscan.
Click to expand...

What model? Or at least chassis number. But yeah without remote it'll be hard to do anything. Ususally Panasonic Tv's have weird way to access service menu. Stuff like put the bass to the min, treble to the max then press -Vol on tv and index on remote... lol
 
purdobol said:
What model? Or at least chassis number. But yeah without remote it'll be hard to do anything. Ususally Panasonic Tv's have weird way to access service menu. Stuff like put the bass to the min, treble to the max then press -Vol on tv and index on remote... lol
Click to expand...

It says Tau on top and at the bottom TBM4G9094
 
Brhoom said:
It says Tau on top and at the bottom TBM4G9094
Click to expand...

These give nothing on google. Is that everything on the label? pic maybe?

Here are some examples of Panasonic model numbers. Yours doesn't remotely look like one :/
https://www.manualslib.com/brand/panasonic/crt-tv.html

How to access the service menu on a Panasonic. May not work on every TV of the brand.
http://electronicshelponline.blogspot.fr/2012/05/how-to-enter-service-mode-menu-to.html
You definitely need a remote. Once you properly identify your model you should be able to buy one used.
 
Khaz said:
These give nothing on google. Is that everything on the label? pic maybe?

Here are some examples of Panasonic model numbers. Yours doesn't remotely look like one :/
https://www.manualslib.com/brand/panasonic/crt-tv.html

How to access the service menu on a Panasonic. May not work on every TV of the brand.
http://electronicshelponline.blogspot.fr/2012/05/how-to-enter-service-mode-menu-to.html
You definitely need a remote. Once you properly identify your model you should be able to buy one used.
Click to expand...

After looking at the back I found TC-21ps75r. Sorry I didn't well before.
 
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