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Retro AV Club Thread 2: Classic Gaming Done Right!

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L

Like the hat?

Banned
OK I have a CRT tv that has component in (the red green and blue cables). It's a Sony Trinitron.

I have a square button Famicom and a front loader NES

What's my best option? Mod one and get a converter to play the other games on it, or mod both? If one, which? I don't have a Famicom disk system right now but I'd like to get one in the future maybe. Haven't decided yet.
 
P

Peltz

Member
Like the hat? said:
OK I have a CRT tv that has component in (the red green and blue cables). It's a Sony Trinitron.

I have a square button Famicom and a front loader NES

What's my best option? Mod one and get a converter to play the other games on it, or mod both? If one, which? I don't have a Famicom disk system right now but I'd like to get one in the future maybe. Haven't decided yet.
Click to expand...
This is a dilemma many NES fans find themselves in. I think there's no correct answer.
 
L

lilralphie

Member
Does anyone have a spare Extron RGB 203 RXI they would sell or trade to me? I picked up a 202 ignorant to the fact that it accepts Barco 3 DB9 instead of HD15.

rgb203rxi.jpg

(stock pic)

Thanks. I have retro games for trade too if prefer that.
 
O

Omerta

Member
^ That reminds me... does anyone know anything about the Extron DVS 304?

I can get one at a reasonable price. I'd be using it to upscale megadrive and snes games to a flat screen.

Any ideas?
 
gingerbeardman

gingerbeardman

Member
televator said:
Well according to one member and their screenshots, PS2 might make dithering worse on PS1 games.
Click to expand...
A friend of mine used to work at Blitz Games here in the UK and told me that later PS1 units (even before PSone?) had revised GPUs that they had to create workarounds for, due to dithering and other graphics rendering differences.

I can try to find out more if it's not already known?
 
T

televator

Member
gingerbeardman said:
A friend of mine used to work at Blitz Games here in the UK and told me that later PS1 units (even before PSone?) had revised GPUs that they had to create workarounds for, she to dissing and other rendering differences.

I can try to find out more if it's not already known?
Click to expand...

Please do! I don't think it's well known outside of super esoteric modding/hacking/development groups.
 
K

Khaz

Member
ponpo said:
I saw this PC Engine 720p DVI upscaler at BEEP akiba. It's like $400 USD so kind of insane compared to a Framemeister or whatever. Apparently the input lag is like 1 frame vs. 20 or whatever Framemeister is though, so if that matters and you have money to spend, dozo.
Click to expand...

I do remember the Ootake programmer bitching about how Windows made his emulator terrible in regard to input lag. Maybe Japanese PC-Engine aficionados are especially sensitive to input lag and are a market for a dedicated upscaler.
 
D

dancrane212

Member
Ended up putting my original Xbox back in rotation this morning but noticed the cheap component cable I picked up to replace my MS branded one (lost when I moved into my place) has a significant amount of interference coming through on my television.

I know there's a lot of discussion in this about where to buy the best built SCART/BNC cables but what about component? Any places out there that sell properly shielded cables or do I have to track down another official set?
 
T

televator

Member
dancrane212 said:
Ended up putting my original Xbox back in rotation this morning but noticed the cheap component cable I picked up to replace my MS branded one (lost when I moved into my place) has a significant amount of interference coming through on my television.

I know there's a lot of discussion in this about where to buy the best built SCART/BNC cables but what about component? Any places out there that sell properly shielded cables or do I have to track down another official set?
Click to expand...

Monster/psyclone are other options
 
S

sixteen-bit

Member
Khaz said:
I do remember the Ootake programmer bitching about how Windows made his emulator terrible in regard to input lag. Maybe Japanese PC-Engine aficionados are especially sensitive to input lag and are a market for a dedicated upscaler.
Click to expand...

don't wanna fuck w/ ur 16shot per second in caravan games
 
M

Morfeo

The Chuck Norris of Peace
Wasnt able to say goodbye to the last thread, but its nice to be a part of this new one. Title is perfect, and Im sure this is going to be just as fun and expensive as the last thread was!

Edit: And that header image!
 
M

Mega

Banned
Khaz said:
Is it just me or these scan lines are uneven?
Click to expand...

Impossible! The image is 480 pixels tall with alternating one pixel tall lines.

I expected they would look bad on some browser zoom settings, but so do all of our screenshots with both genuine and artificial scanlines... so I let it go.

Peltz said:
Love. What font is that?
Click to expand...

Bauhaus 93

I just found this out from Wikipedia, and had no idea about the bolded. Pure coincidence.
Bauhaus 93 is a variant of URW Blippo Black. Only one font was produced. It is used in Microsoft Word. It is also used for the Postman Pat logo, around Disney's Polynesian Resort, and on the title screens for Super Mario Bros. and Super Mario Bros. 2, as well as the amiibo logo.
Click to expand...
 
M

Morfeo

The Chuck Norris of Peace
D.Lo said:
Some PAL games (basically just the top ones, eg Metroid Prime 1) render at higher resolution in PAL. So you get a genuinely higher resolution on a 576i screen, so less dithering on object edges. Wind Waker uses the extra lines too, but unfortunately runs 17% slower, but MP as adjusted.

Most PAL games either squash or stretch the NTSC resolution however, so in most cases they are definitely worse, not to mention when the speed is not adjusted.
Click to expand...

Is there a list of these PAL-games anywhere? I have slowly started to replace my PAL-games with NTSC-ones, but might have to keep some of them then.
 
D

dubc35

Member
Wow, the video phase seems to be way wack on my new PVM (1954q). SNES via RGB is way left, ps1 via RGB is pretty good, NES via composite (fuck yeah!) is way right. Getting SNES aligned sets the video phase to 0(!) I still need to test Genesis. Hopefully it's shifted right as expected. The 1351q was pretty common across the board (less Genesis shifted right) so this is new territory for my novice PVM experience.
 
D.Lo

D.Lo

Member
Galdelico said:
That's really new to me. One never stops learning.
Are you talking about games that come with a 60hz selector too, or just those that are 50hz-only (such as Tales of Symphonia)? On my Trinitron, stuff like PAL F-Zero set to 60hz doesn't seem to run/look any different/worse than - say - US Resident Evil 4 (via Freeloader) on the same console. I'm using an official Nintendo RGB cable - which I know is nowhere as good as component on NTSC systems - but I genuinely fail to see any difference in IQ, between PAL60 and NTSC games.
Click to expand...
PAL60 and NTSC would look identical over anything except composite, where PAL would have a slight edge due to being a better colour system.

It's regular PAL in 50Hz games that can have potentially genuinely higher resolution.
Morfeo said:
Is there a list of these PAL-games anywhere? I have slowly started to replace my PAL-games with NTSC-ones, but might have to keep some of them then.
Click to expand...
No list, I just did A/B tests on some games on a 576i PAL TV, via component. It was therefore especially frustrating that Metroid Prime 2 was 60Hz only, because it meant it had reduced IQ compared to MP1. Prime 1 was really by far the best example, since it's got such amazing IQ anyway and was released quite a bit later they put in a bunch of extra effort and on that version (and it's the canonical version, since all re-releases use its edits). I would say on my CRT 576i was superior to 480p, lat alone 480i. 20% extra resolution is a pretty big boost.

From what I would tell, No PS2 or Xbox games had this. Or maybe ICO? I remember the NTSC version looked a lot worse than the PAL version. But then most PAL PS2 games had appalling conversions to 50Hz, and Xbox in either interlaced format is an IQ abomination, due to a blur filter that gets added.

Keep in mind this is interlaced only, and PAL CRT screens only, which can handle a native 576i signal. 480p would be better on any other screen. But if you have a nice 576i CRT, try both versions of games out.
 
B

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Like the hat? said:
OK I have a CRT tv that has component in (the red green and blue cables). It's a Sony Trinitron.

I have a square button Famicom and a front loader NES

What's my best option? Mod one and get a converter to play the other games on it, or mod both? If one, which? I don't have a Famicom disk system right now but I'd like to get one in the future maybe. Haven't decided yet.
Click to expand...
I'd mod Famicom before NES.

First of all, the additional sound channels are on the Famicom (Though you can mod an NES and mod a Famicom converter to play them). But the actual action of putting a Famicom game into an NES is annoying. I have one of those Famicom to NES converters with the cloth ribbon to pull the converter out, and it's such a janky way to put a cart in. An NES to Famicom converter is much more reasonable to deal with. You can even get adapters to plug 1 or 2 NES controllers into the Famicom expansion port (and the NES Zapper will work!)

There are mods to get an FDS to work on a NES, but none of them are pretty.

Get your Famicom modded first. Maybe someday mod your NES later if you don't want to deal with converters between regions. That's what I'm going to do.

Oh and the original Famicom RGB mod requires you to remove the eject mechanism. That was small but annoyed me so much I got an AV Famicom modded instead. No destruction of the original functions.
 
D

davidwhangchoi

Member
D.Lo said:
PAL60 and NTSC would look identical over anything except composite, where PAL would have a slight edge due to being a better colour system.

It's regular PAL in 50Hz games that can have potentially genuinely higher resolution.
No list, I just did A/B tests on some games on a 576i PAL TV, via component. It was therefore especially frustrating that Metroid Prime 2 was 60Hz only, because it meant it had reduced IQ compared to MP1. Prime 1 was really by far the best example, since it's got such amazing IQ anyway and was released quite a bit later they put in a bunch of extra effort and on that version (and it's the canonical version, since all re-releases use its edits). I would say on my CRT 576i was superior to 480p, lat alone 480i. 20% extra resolution is a pretty big boost.

From what I would tell, No PS2 or Xbox games had this. Or maybe ICO? I remember the NTSC version looked a lot worse than the PAL version. But then most PAL PS2 games had appalling conversions to 50Hz, and Xbox in either interlaced format is a disgusting IQ abomination.

Keep in mind this is interlaced only, and PAL CRT screens only, which can handle a native 576i signal. 480p would be better on any other screen. But if you have a nice 576i CRT, try both versions of games out.
Click to expand...

ICO NTSC ps2 runs 240p (vs. 288p)
 
D.Lo

D.Lo

Member
davidwhangchoi said:
ICO NTSC ps2 runs 240p (vs. 288p)
Click to expand...
It's not the output resolution that's important, it's the internal rendering resolution. All PAL games at 50Hz output 288p or 567i, but it might just be the NTSC resolution squeezed (black borders added) or stretched (some line doubling).

With 2D games you can't stretch without distortion, so they pretty much universally have borders (or in some rare cases adjusted field of view, aka actual extra graphics). 3D games could display the geometry in higher resolution in PAL, but it would involve a decent effort that most couldn't be bothered with. PAL machines are the exact same computer in most cases, so have extra performance juice left from the games being clocked 20% slower, so a good dev could use this for extra resolution.
 
D

davidwhangchoi

Member
D.Lo said:
It's not the output resolution that's important, it's the internal rendering resolution. All PAL games at 50Hz output 288p or 567i, but it might just be the NTSC resolution squeezed (black borders added) or stretched (some line doubling).

With 2D games you can't stretch without distortion, so they pretty much universally have borders (or in some rare cases adjusted field of view, aka actual extra graphics). 3D games could display the geometry in higher resolution in PAL, but it would involve a decent effort that most couldn't be bothered with. PAL machines are the exact same computer in most cases, so have extra performance juice left from the games being clocked 20% slower, so a good dev could use this for extra resolution.
Click to expand...

oh, ok maybe this info is more helpful:

Ico. Initially planned for the original PS1 console, its protracted development period eventually saw it appear on CD for PlayStation 2 some four years after producer Fumito Ueda first devised the concept.

While elements such as lighting, detail and animation were clearly ahead of their time, there are some hints of the game's less technologically advanced origins. Base resolution for Ico is a rather low 512x224 (going up to 512x256 in PAL mode, with a frame-rate reduction to 25FPS), with the title actually forcing the PlayStation 2 hardware to forego a traditional interlaced video output in favour of low-resolution progressive scan.
-Eurogamer
Click to expand...

i just read PAL ICO has more features than NTSC but nothing much on resolution being better on PAL
 
R

RadarScope1

Member
Like the hat? said:
OK I have a CRT tv that has component in (the red green and blue cables). It's a Sony Trinitron.

I have a square button Famicom and a front loader NES

What's my best option? Mod one and get a converter to play the other games on it, or mod both? If one, which? I don't have a Famicom disk system right now but I'd like to get one in the future maybe. Haven't decided yet.
Click to expand...

I have the same choice ahead of me. I'm an NES collector through and through, so I'm going that route. I'll probably mod both in the long run. How many games do you have for each? And plan to get? I have 10 times as many NES games as FC games and will be getting more. So that helps push me in that direction.

D.Lo said:
It looks waaaay better in PAL. Of course there's an HD version now though.
Click to expand...

Hmm. I have a region free PS2...
 
D

Deleted member 22576

Unconfirmed Member
First post in the new thread! Subscribed.
 
Danny Dudekisser

Danny Dudekisser

I paid good money for this Dynex!
So, I think I'm gonna postpone retro setup and hook the OSSC up to my computer monitor... and just organize that shit a bit better. Can really only have one system hooked up at a time for now without it looking like shit, but whatever. It's something. I just can't quite find a display I want to get yet, and I'm really only in the mood to buy that sound setup I've been talking about for a while... which I'll hook up to the computer/OSSC setup.

Also thinking I'll finally buy a supergun in late November, so it'll be interesting to see how all that plays with the OSSC.
 
P

PumpkinSpice

Banned
Chacranajxy said:
So, I think I'm gonna postpone retro setup and hook the OSSC up to my computer monitor... and just organize that shit a bit better. Can really only have one system hooked up at a time for now without it looking like shit, but whatever. It's something. I just can't quite find a display I want to get yet, and I'm really only in the mood to buy that sound setup I've been talking about for a while... which I'll hook up to the computer/OSSC setup.

Also thinking I'll finally buy a supergun in late November, so it'll be interesting to see how all that plays with the OSSC.
Click to expand...

Buy a Dynex.
 
IrishNinja

IrishNinja

Member
Chac i'd be down to see whatever audio setup you go with, but definitely post back on the supergun front - ive had a few locals point out that having an XRGB means i really should just jump on that bandwagon instead of say a consolized MVS/etc, but i honestly don't know much about the scene & would be down to learn

SheepyGuy said:
Buy a Dynex.
Click to expand...

the baller way™
 
G

Galdelico

Member
D.Lo said:
PAL60 and NTSC would look identical over anything except composite, where PAL would have a slight edge due to being a better colour system.

It's regular PAL in 50Hz games that can have potentially genuinely higher resolution.

No list, I just did A/B tests on some games on a 576i PAL TV, via component. It was therefore especially frustrating that Metroid Prime 2 was 60Hz only, because it meant it had reduced IQ compared to MP1. Prime 1 was really by far the best example, since it's got such amazing IQ anyway and was released quite a bit later they put in a bunch of extra effort and on that version (and it's the canonical version, since all re-releases use its edits). I would say on my CRT 576i was superior to 480p, lat alone 480i. 20% extra resolution is a pretty big boost.

From what I would tell, No PS2 or Xbox games had this. Or maybe ICO? I remember the NTSC version looked a lot worse than the PAL version. But then most PAL PS2 games had appalling conversions to 50Hz, and Xbox in either interlaced format is an IQ abomination, due to a blur filter that gets added.

Keep in mind this is interlaced only, and PAL CRT screens only, which can handle a native 576i signal. 480p would be better on any other screen. But if you have a nice 576i CRT, try both versions of games out.
Click to expand...
This clarifies alot, thanks!
 
E

ElTorro

I wanted to dominate the living room. Then I took an ESRAM in the knee.
Brhoom said:
I saw someone one youtube say there is a new framemeister in the works, hopefully it fixes the sync issue with Silent Hill.
Click to expand...

Do you have a link? Is this somewhat reliable information or just speculation?
 
T

Teknoman

Member
Is that just the system connected to a Famicom converter? But then again it cant be, since the converters usually dont stick out that far.
 
B

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
IrishNinja said:
...huh!
okay, so: specifics
Click to expand...

The FDS Ram Adapter just plugs into the cartridge slot of a Famicom.

So it must just be a really long Famicom adapter for the NES that sticks out far enough to let the Ram Adapter plug in.

I've also heard of mods that disassemble FDS Ram Adapters or the NES itself to allow for them to interface... it's some ugly shit imo.

If I were you, I'd just get a Famicom. Just for the aesthetics not being ugly. They're not that expensive. I guess the biggest cost is getting that RGB modded too. (personally, I'm figuring this soldering thing out for myself so I don't have to pay for mod work every time).
 
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