- RetroUSB AVS - Real Hardware HDMI NES Clone Console

Did we ever nail down what's the best replica NES controllers available for purchase?

I pulled out my NES over the weekend to test out the Darkwing Duck cartridge I bought and I realized my controllers are in worse condition than I remember. You have to apply a lot of force to the buttons to get them to make contact.
 
DarkConfidant said:
It almost seems like they saw that Nintendo was making something that may draw attention away, so they felt like saying that they upped the ante with their own mini system.
Click to expand...

If they think that, they are being silly.

The Nintendo Mini NES is going to increase sales of the Analogue NT and Retro AVS.

I guarantee it.
 
NOLA_Gaffer said:
Did we ever nail down what's the best replica NES controllers available for purchase?

I pulled out my NES over the weekend to test out the Darkwing Duck cartridge I bought and I realized my controllers are in worse condition than I remember. You have to apply a lot of force to the buttons to get them to make contact.
Click to expand...

They are most likely just dirty then. NES controllers are extremely easy to clean and put back together. I would try that first.

As far as replica controllers, most are close enough but none are perfect. Tomee seems like the best replica but OEM NES controllers are common enough where you just get a set on eBay for around $20.
 
The issues people have raised about the AVS' 720p output shouldn't be an issue if I have a 4K TV, correct? Because 720 does divide evenly into 2160.
 
DarkConfidant said:
It almost seems like they saw that Nintendo was making something that may draw attention away, so they felt like saying that they upped the ante with their own mini system.

Calling out the 30 games number, and calling the Classic Mini a "toy" is mocking, definitely.
Click to expand...

I don't think they were worried about drawing attention away from their sold out inventory of Analogue NT's, they are just capitalizing on the awareness of the Classic Mini by announcing something they've probably been working on for a while since the NT's were limited by how many chips of original hardware they could get their hands on and the demand was always higher than their supply. A bit of mocking for sure since the NT mini can off a lot more for a much higher price point.

I am very glad we have options at different price points though, just a bit over a year ago we had no options available for HDMI NES systems besides emulation.
 
Talladega Knight said:
Any news on if retroUSB will be doing a SNES or Genesis HDMI console?
Click to expand...

Doubtful. I seem to remember the AVS guy saying that he didn't have any interest in doing a clone SNES or Genesis because he has no nostalgia for either platform.

Of course if the AVS ends up being profitable for him that might change.
 
NOLA_Gaffer said:
Did we ever nail down what's the best replica NES controllers available for purchase?

I pulled out my NES over the weekend to test out the Darkwing Duck cartridge I bought and I realized my controllers are in worse condition than I remember. You have to apply a lot of force to the buttons to get them to make contact.
Click to expand...

Yes, very easy to clean!

Just unscrew. Carefully disassemble what you want to clean, the plastic buttons, the rubber pads.

Use a cotton swab and isopropyl alcohol on the board. You'll probably notice heavy black dirt coming off. Clean it up, then use a magic eraser on the same spots to make sure you got it. Some people have mentioned those putty erasers. They'd work well too.

Don't use alcohol on the rubber parts under the buttons or be very careful. Try windex instead, on your cotton swab. Rubber can dry out with alcohol.

You can also clean around the plastic buttons when you pop them out. The alcohol and swab is probably fine here.

If the buttons don't seem responsive, the problem is definitely dirty contacts, so make sure you get those clean!

Then put the puzzle pieces back together, screws in, and you've got a responsive controller that feels like new!
 
AgeEighty said:
The issues people have raised about the AVS' 720p output shouldn't be an issue if I have a 4K TV, correct? Because 720 does divide evenly into 2160.
Click to expand...

The issues people have raised are really only theoretical. If you have a 1080p TV, most TVs should upscale 720p without any issues. Likewise, 720p should scale even better into 2160 since it divides evenly.

It really comes down to your TV and if it has a good built-in scaler. Even if your TV scaler does introduce a bit of lag, it won't be noticeable by 99% of players. Framemeisters have lag, upscalers have lag, CRTs have lag. There is no lag free solution. You just want as little as possible.

Brian had world champion Tetris players test the AVS and reported zero problems at a competitive level. If it's good enough for them, I don't think anyone here is going to have any problems.
 
GameFreak117x said:
Yes I understand that but what is the difference in real world applications? Or rather how is the experience any different for the user?
Click to expand...

The difference is it should function 100% like the original NES. No graphical issues, no sound issues. 100% compatibility with all games.

Try playing Castlevania III on most NES clones and it won't run or will have severe problems.

For someone that wants to play an NES on a modern TV with HDMI while having 100% accuracy to the original NES, the AVS or an FPGA-based mod is the way to go.
 
GameFreak117x said:
Yes I understand that but what is the difference in real world applications? Or rather how is the experience any different for the user?
Click to expand...

Emulators add a considerable amount of input lag, making many games harder to play. NES emulation is generally very good so you won't come across many video glitches and audio inaccuracies but they do exist.

AgeEighty said:
The issues people have raised about the AVS' 720p output shouldn't be an issue if I have a 4K TV, correct? Because 720 does divide evenly into 2160.
Click to expand...

I posted about this earlier in the thread. As Beer said before, the problem is the scaling algorithm. You will get a nice and even integer scale as you mentioned, but it seems most (all?) 4KTVs have internal scalers that use bilinear filtering when upscaling, which results in a soft output.

One hopes for the left result in each comparison (nearest neighbor), but will probably get the results on the right (bilinear):

mag_filter.png
point-vs-linear.png
Click to expand...
 
Mega said:
I posted about this earlier in the thread. As Beer said before, the problem is the scaling algorithm. You will get a nice and even integer scale as you mentioned, but it seems most (all?) 4KTVs have internal scalers that use bilinear filtering when upscaling, which results in a soft output.

One hopes for the left result in each comparison (nearest neighbor), but will probably get the results on the right (bilinear):
Click to expand...

Thanks. I'd say that's a major problem with the AVS for me, then.
 
dcx4610 said:
The issues people have raised are really only theoretical. If you have a 1080p TV, most TVs should upscale 720p without any issues.
Click to expand...

On a typical 1080p HDTV you'll be looking at a 4.5 (3x to 720p times 1.5 to 1080p) double-scaled non-integer image, that's not theoretical.

Likewise, 720p should scale even better into 2160 since it divides evenly.
Click to expand...

4K TVs typically apply bi-linear filtering to 720p, softening the image. That's not theoretical.

2160p PC monitors will typically offer integer scaling.
 
NOLA_Gaffer said:
Doubtful. I seem to remember the AVS guy saying that he didn't have any interest in doing a clone SNES or Genesis because he has no nostalgia for either platform.

Of course if the AVS ends up being profitable for him that might change.
Click to expand...

SNES and Genesis on FPGA are still in their very early days too.
 
So these criticisms exist, but you'd suppose he'd already have tested on the 1080 tv, maybe even a 4k tv. No way it'll look as nasty as that blurry Megaman, and if it does, you have to wonder why this information wasn't brought to his attention before long before production.
 
Polioliolio said:
Yes, very easy to clean!

Just unscrew. Carefully disassemble what you want to clean, the plastic buttons, the rubber pads.

Use a cotton swab and isopropyl alcohol on the board. You'll probably notice heavy black dirt coming off. Clean it up, then use a magic eraser on the same spots to make sure you got it. Some people have mentioned those putty erasers. They'd work well too.

Don't use alcohol on the rubber parts under the buttons or be very careful. Try windex instead, on your cotton swab. Rubber can dry out with alcohol.

You can also clean around the plastic buttons when you pop them out. The alcohol and swab is probably fine here.

If the buttons don't seem responsive, the problem is definitely dirty contacts, so make sure you get those clean!

Then put the puzzle pieces back together, screws in, and you've got a responsive controller that feels like new!
Click to expand...

Took apart one of my controllers and...one of the posts broke off with the screw still in it.

Great.

Don't have any super glue on hand and I'm too impatient to wait to do this tomorrow so I attempted to reapply it with white glue and screwed the case back together. Hopefully this time tomorrow the glue will have set and it'll stay in place.

Edit: Happened on the second controller too. Starting to think maybe it's a design flaw.
 
Posts? Do you mean the plastic screw column thingies?

That's weird. Maybe you have a habit of applying twisting pressure into the controllers and over time it weakened them?

I've taken apart and cleaned near 10 controllers. I'm not sure I've seen that.. Maybe in one controller, but I can't recall really..
 
Honestly I don't like the dogbones because of the button misalignment makes it a bit more difficult for games were you use two buttons at once. Same reason I don't get the wireless NES controller + adapter from 8bitdo.
 
Polioliolio said:
So these criticisms exist, but you'd suppose he'd already have tested on the 1080 tv, maybe even a 4k tv. No way it'll look as nasty as that blurry Megaman, and if it does, you have to wonder why this information wasn't brought to his attention before long before production.
Click to expand...

I tried it myself in Photoshop. Keep in mind the "AVS" examples are just theoretical until people actually get the console and see for themselves.

dre5gjv.png


I downloaded a MMX sprite, confirming its the native size, and scaled it several different sizes with bilinear or nearest neighbor filtering.

Bilinear scaling from 240p does actually yield similar results to that blurry Mega Man, but this isn't accurate because the AVS is starting from a clear 720p output. So disregard the 3X Bilinear and 4X Bilinear images... they're more representative of what the 240p NESRGB would look like on a HDTV without the aid of XRGB or OSSC.

So starting from the clean 3x Nearest upscale representative of AVS at 720p, I rescaled it to the 1080p and 4K equivalents with bilinear filtering (common for the internal scalers in most displays). 1080p is subtly but still noticeably blurry. 4K is very blurry, though thankfully not as bad as I initially suspected. But it's important to remember that these are best case scenarios... Photoshop has excellent resizing capabilities whereas your TV's scaler may not.

I did receive the Hi-Def NES yesterday and did a quick comparison on my 1080p Panasonic plasma. Games in 720p scaled to 1080p are a little blurry, resembling the theoretical AVS 720p to1080p example in the picture above. Hi-Def NES at 1080p (4x integer scale) is pixel-perfect sharp... also like in the above pictured example.

The 4K upscaler image is a just-for-fun example of a future 4K-capable Framemeister or a 4K display with an excellent internal scaler.
 
Alright guys, stupid question time. I was wondering if playing roms on a Power Pack or Everdrive will give the same image quality as using a real cartridge?
 
Pre-ordered this, but thinking analogue NT might be the way to go. Likely splurging again...Guess I can try to do the side-by-side on my plasma before loser hits the secondary market.

EDIT: Splurge confirmed...2 systems enter, one system leaves.
 
dcx4610 said:
Probably the best review of the AVS so far at least on showing the unboxing and games. He didn't really get into the technical details much but it's still worth watching.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrlQMz93LE8
Click to expand...

Doesn't even show how the scanline mode looks. :/

I compared his video of Castlevania 3 to how it looks on my RGB modded AV Famicom, and the AVS is too dark, especially noticable during the section with the stained glass windows. The bluish-gray bricks are brighter on my real Famicom, while they are much darker on AVS. In the next screen there are dark brown bricks in the background above the stairs, which look almost black on AVS, while they are clearly visible on a real Famicom. Retron 5 actually looks closer.
 
Occam said:
Doesn't even show how the scanline mode looks. :/

I compared his video of Castlevania 3 to how it looks on my RGB modded AV Famicom, and the AVS is too dark, especially noticable during the section with the stained glass windows. The bluish-gray bricks are brighter on my real Famicom, while they are much darker on AVS. In the next screen there are dark brown bricks in the background above the stairs, which look almost black on AVS, while they are clearly visible on a real Famicom. Retron 5 actually looks closer.
Click to expand...

Could be his TV. Tough to say. The AVS is supposed to be an exact clone of the NES PPU.
 
Another really good review: http://www.retrorgb.com/nesavs.html

Video review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSXNwo87iD8

Seems the only problem some people have had right now is audio issues with some tv's, but the creator said it's been fixed on NintendoAge forum. This is what he had to say:

bunnyboy said:
Not an EDID problem, and its already fixed!
Click to expand...

bunnyboy said:
The one on the boat have 44.1kHz audio. I recently changed it to 48kHz audio because it makes some sounds much better, and sets up for higher bit rate too. Reviewers got that beta version, which was tested on 4000 series and 5000 series Samsungs, but barfs on 6000 series Samsungs. One audio sample sometimes being delayed by one scanline makes those TVs restart the whole syncing process. Samsung has always hated me Completely unrelated to EDID, which I have connected but do not yet use.
Click to expand...
 
NOLA_Gaffer said:
Noticed that Jeremy Parish uploaded some AVS footage to the USGamer Youtube Channel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLp8dZoZVHA

Is it just me or do those colors look way off?
Click to expand...

Twitch recorded this footage WAY brighter and more washed out than it actually looks in person on both my TV and my recording window. Not sure what the deal is, but I guess now I know why people in the stream kept mentioning color. Which is to say: The console does not blow out colors in real life.
 
ToastyFrog said:
Twitch recorded this footage WAY brighter and more washed out than it actually looks in person on both my TV and my recording window. Not sure what the deal is, but I guess now I know why people in the stream kept mentioning color. Which is to say: The console does not blow out colors in real life.
Click to expand...

Awesome, thanks for the update. I thought maybe there was some sort of palette select in the options there similar to what the NES RGB hardware mods offer but I hadn't heard any other reviewers mention it.
 
I was a little lukewarm on my pre-order but now that I see all these videos I'm jazzed.

Mainly for the fact that I can connect this to my 4K TV so easily. I still have my original NES from when I was a kid and a bunch (but not all) of my carts.
 
I have a Framemeister and a wonderfully-modded NESrgb (thanks bapho!)... So why do I really want this?

Not to mention the Analogue lust...
 
BobbyColtrane said:
I was a little lukewarm on my pre-order but now that I see all these videos I'm jazzed.

Mainly for the fact that I can connect this to my 4K TV so easily. I still have my original NES from when I was a kid and a bunch (but not all) of my carts.
Click to expand...

You'll have to share some 4k impressions.

Glad to see good news all around. Going to party like its 1989 once this thing shows up!
 
Superglue seemed to fix my screw mounting issue on my controllers, though one of the screws won't tighten all the way anymore so I guess some glue got into the hole.

That being said, I still want to pick up some spare controllers. Currently watching over a dozen eBay auctions trying to find the best combination of price and condition.

A set of five controllers, an AC Adapter, a zapper, and two NES cartridges sold for a little over $10 plus $25 shipping, but I don't need any of those things outside of the controllers.

The search continues.
 
metsallica said:
I have a Framemeister and a wonderfully-modded NESrgb (thanks bapho!)... So why do I really want this?

Not to mention the Analogue lust...
Click to expand...
You don't, and it's the cheapest route while offering good picture quality as well. Also why an Analogue when it's even more expensive than an RGB NES that you already have!!!
 
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