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[Robobandit]

Has it occured to anyone else that this translation is piss-poor? Perhaps we should find someone who can speak French to translate this instead of Babelfish

 

[bronzodiriace]

Oh for fuck's sake.... At least make it somewhat plausible!

Fucking Nintendo's coyness about the specs is gonna subject us to these kinds of wet pants fanboy BS speculations nonesense for months more to come!

KILL ME NOW!!!! X_X



STFU!!

please

save the forest.

 

[Shogmaster]

please

save the forest.

Oh no, please.

Save our sanity.

 

[PkunkFury]

Beam? If something is blocking your "laser" in a laser demo, it would be impressive if this translated into the game as well. They also say the controller doesn't spaz out. Also wonder why they were made to stand in a precise position as the sensors should be reading this stuff on the fly, maybe some sensors were not set up properly, hence the wires.

Sorry, it is evident that I wasn't making much sense when I was talking about using IR for point tracking. There is no "IR beam" or "laser" coming from the remote. Instead you have two receptors (I will call these sensors) that use photodiodes (which you can think of as cameras) looking at the space in front of the TV for an Infra-red light point, which is the point we want to track(locted on the remote). As that light point moves around, the cameras are determining the distance to that light point based on the time it takes them to receive the light. Distances are triangulated to find 3D coordinates of the light point within the space in front of the sensors. You actually need 3 camera sources to traingulate 3D coordinates based off of a single point, but there are some tricky ways of doing this with photodiodes that require only two (which we won't get into).

IR tech is not outdated for tracking position. It is outdated for something like the wavebird, but we are not using the IR to send data to the rev console. IR is what is used to do motion capture, which is also tracking positions in 3D space. It is also used for arcade games like Para Para paradise and Police/911.

What does this mean for the rev controller? It means that the sensors will be able to detect the 3D position of the remote, and provide the softwere with actual, numeric 3D corodinates, as long as the remote device is "pointing" (front facing forward) in the direction of the sensors. I believe this is why Nintendo has been referring to it as a pointing device, and why they shaped it like a remote. They expect you to be pointing the front of it at the screen. The location and size of your TV has no bearing on how the position is detected, only the sensors. It is likely that the first time you set the sensors up around your TV, a home position will have to be calibrated, but Nintendo might find a way around this.

If somebody steps in front of the remote, or if the remote is facing backwards, the light will be blocked, and the sensors will momentarily stop receiving data. The tracking will not go crazy. The position you are aiming at will likely be frozen until the sensors regain sight of the remote, at which point the aiming position will jump to the remote's new location. If gyros are included in the remote (which is likely) then blocking the IR port in front of the remote will not stop rotation or accelerometer data. This data is being transferred from the remote to the revolution via bluetooth and will continue to transmit through the blocking obstacle. The Revolution could probably continue tracking the remote fairly accurately without any IR info, based solely on what the gyros and acclerometers are sending it, for about half a minute.

This is all assuming the Rev is using an optical tracking method. Other tracking methods include ultrasound, magnetic, radio frequency(bluetooth), and mechanical, and each is less likely to be used for the revolution than the previous. If you are wondring why these aren't as likely as IR, you can read about all of them in the excellent paper that SpoonyBard posted on the previous page.

And yes, jingling keys does screw up the IS-900 ultrasound system!!! but not that bad...

 

[LordPhlegm]

PkunkFury, where's your avatar from? It looks very familiar.

 

[PkunkFury]

PkunkFury, where's your avatar from? It looks very familiar.

Star Control II a.k.a. The best game EVAR

Pkunks were my favorite alien in the game (until I heard them talk in the 3DO version ) and the Fury are their kick ass ships. My avatar is the ship

There is a good chance you've played it, but if not you can download it on sourceforge for free. It is now called The Ur-Quan Masters to avoid lawsuits. Linky:

http://sourceforge.net/projects/sc2/

 

[mrkgoo]

Star Control II a.k.a. The best game EVAR

Pkunks were my favorite alien in the game (until I heard them talk in the 3DO version ) and the Fury are their kick ass ships. My avatar is the ship

There is a good chance you've played it, but if not you can download it on sourceforge for free. It is now called The Ur-Quan Masters to avoid lawsuits. Linky:

http://sourceforge.net/projects/sc2/

Pkunk was my favourite too. Loved the healing, the death blossum and the regenerating fuel. Never had it myself, but played abit of multipalyer. Fun times.

 

[PkunkFury]

Pkunk was my favourite too. Loved the healing, the death blossum and the regenerating fuel. Never had it myself, but played abit of multipalyer. Fun times.

Oooh! Download it and play the full game! The graphics aren't so flashy for today but the music and dialouge are still unrivaled! You will love meeting the personalities behind each ship!! And the combat is the same as multiplayer, just with the not so hot AI. And yes, nothing beats the feeling you get when your Pkunk returns from the dead

 

[PkunkFury]

Nintendo actually specifically said that the sensors were not in any way finalized. So be aware that this description may not reflect the final product. There were two small sensors -- about the size of a gum eraser -- that were attached to a small metal bar maybe the size of a ruler.

They were placed under the TV but they said there are many places you could put them. On top, on the sides, on the wall even. It's all very very up in the air, though.

Hmm, this gives us clues... Only two sensors, but we are somehow finding a 3D point. The P5 glove does this with IR and photo diodes (a set for each X and Y in each sensor) but they are not quite as small as gum erasers. I suppose the tech could shrink, so this si till a possibility.

I remember a quote from someone saying you could actually move the two sensors apart and place them in seperate areas. Did I imagine that? How would that work, shouldn't the sensors need to know where they are in realtion to each other to triangulate? Do they find the distance between each other via bluetooth, and if so maybe they can do bluetooth tracking?

Spoony, if you're still around I'd like to hear your thoughts, as that article made it sound like bluetooth tracking wasn't likely, but the article was written 3 years ago so maybe Nintendo have found a way to do it accurate and cheap. I'm still banking 70% on some IR solution, but I'd like to see this bluetooth tracking become a new (and possibly better) option

 

[mrkgoo]

Oooh! Download it and play the full game! The graphics aren't so flashy for today but the music and dialouge are still unrivaled! You will love meeting the personalities behind each ship!! And the combat is the same as multiplayer, just with the not so hot AI. And yes, nothing beats the feeling you get when your Pkunk returns from the dead

Too bad I don't have a PC... :/

 

[LordPhlegm]

Star Control II a.k.a. The best game EVAR

Pkunks were my favorite alien in the game (until I heard them talk in the 3DO version ) and the Fury are their kick ass ships. My avatar is the ship

There is a good chance you've played it, but if not you can download it on sourceforge for free. It is now called The Ur-Quan Masters to avoid lawsuits. Linky:

http://sourceforge.net/projects/sc2/

Melee! Heck yeah, I played this game all the time back in the day. Quality game, and I haven't played anything like it since. Thanks for the good memories, PkunkFury.

As for how the Rev. Controller works... No clue. Tech talk isn't my business.

 

[SpoonyBard]

Hmm, this gives us clues... Only two sensors, but we are somehow finding a 3D point. The P5 glove does this with IR and photo diodes (a set for each X and Y in each sensor) but they are not quite as small as gum erasers. I suppose the tech could shrink, so this si till a possibility.

I remember a quote from someone saying you could actually move the two sensors apart and place them in seperate areas. Did I imagine that? How would that work, shouldn't the sensors need to know where they are in realtion to each other to triangulate? Do they find the distance between each other via bluetooth, and if so maybe they can do bluetooth tracking?

Spoony, if you're still around I'd like to hear your thoughts, as that article made it sound like bluetooth tracking wasn't likely, but the article was written 3 years ago so maybe Nintendo have found a way to do it accurate and cheap. I'm still banking 70% on some IR solution, but I'd like to see this bluetooth tracking become a new (and possibly better) option

I'm pretty sure it's just IR for motion tracking. If you have an array of 3 leds inside the controller you could probably calculate its position and distance with two PSD sensors even if the distance between the two sensors is unknown. Not sure about the math behind this though...

 

[Gahiggidy]

I'm thinking the sensors may ONLY be detecting depth/distance from the tv set.

Also, can you consider the possibility that its teh remote that's sensing the "sensors" and not vice versa? It the sensors are a set distance apart, a camera of sorts in the remote could determin distance from the sensors based on how close apart they are.

 

[PkunkFury]

cool thanx

Also found this:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/computing/personaltech/20050905-9999-mz1b5swing.html

Couldn't remember the name of the company, XaVix, but these guys stopped by our campus last year with a series of motion tracking sports games (baseball, bowling and tennis) for us to try out at the union. The system is a simple interface between the game cartridges and the TV. When you by a game cartridge it comes with a built in graphics processer, and the necessary infra red sensors. These cartridges plus the peripherals used for the game (bat, bowling ball, rackets) are only 50 bucks. The tracking is not nearly as sophisticated as Nintendo's, I imagine, but it is said to work from a distance up to 8 feet, and the size and price of the sensors are telling. IR will indeed be a cheap solution and the sensors could probably fit in the gum eraser sized nodes Kobun saw.


The irony of this is that XaVix were touring WITH Nintendo, that is to say Nintendo was right next to their tent, showing off Donkey Konga in a van. Perhaps they were touring with Nintendo for a reason... perhaps Nintendo is using some of the patents these guys came up with? maybe, maybe not. The games worked allright, but we were outside so it is hard to tell. They were hard to play but I think that was a design issue. Hopefully Nintendo has improved on the formula

 

[PkunkFury]

I'm thinking the sensors may ONLY be detecting depth/distance from the tv set.

Also, can you consider the possibility that its teh remote that's sensing the "sensors" and not vice versa? It the sensors are a set distance apart, a camera of sorts in the remote could determin distance from the sensors based on how close apart they are.

Excellent point, when Spoony suggested the remote having three points to track I immediately wondered about flipping the roles of the sensors and the remote around as well. That is how Intersense improved the acoustic tracking (switching microphones and speakers around)

Most of the impressions have indicated we will get 6 degrees of freedom out of this thing, so I think X,Y, and Z are being tracked. Still not sure how that works with any sized display without calibration, but if you wanted to aim at a block in the center of the screen with your arm to the left, you'd need a different rotation measure than having your arm to the right. So If X and Y aren't accounted for, players would have to keep their hand/position still throught the game.

 

[SpoonyBard]

I'm thinking the sensors may ONLY be detecting depth/distance from the tv set.

Also, can you consider the possibility that its teh remote that's sensing the "sensors" and not vice versa? It the sensors are a set distance apart, a camera of sorts in the remote could determin distance from the sensors based on how close apart they are.

It doesn't really matter which way it works. The "camera of sorts" would be a PSD sensor, which detects the direction of where the light from the LED is coming from. The distance of the LEDs can be measured if there are multible leds (most likely 3) in array formation.

edit: Gah, you should also read this article:
http://www1.cs.columbia.edu/~drexel/CandExam/Motion_Welch_Foxlin.pdf

 

[nightez]

You all got it wrong the and you're all gonna be very surprised the Revolution controller is powered by simple ethanol tube technology. Its basically a hi-tech spirit level. Thats where its gettings its pinpoint X/Y axis accuracy accuracy.

You also have to take into account durability, Nintendo makes tough products that can take alot (GBA, Cube). And a spirit level can take a hell of shock and abuse. All those gyro, ir's & sensors, etc would die in an instant if my lil bro dropped the controller in frustration.





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[Ruzbeh]

When will it end.

How I wish it would all end, oh, how I eternally wish...