Right Let's Try This Again: PS3 Hypervisor Hacked

darkwings said:
Xbox - easy hacked I think. Sold okay
Xbox 360 - easy to hack - sells good.
PS3 - well, nothing on the market yet. Worst selling.
Click to expand...

You do know the PS3 sold faster than the xbox and sells as well as the 360 launch aligned?
 
darkwings said:
correct me if I am wrong, but haven't the console which has been easiest to hack always been the best selling system? There is no proof that a hacked console suffer. Quite the opposite.

PS1 - easy to hack. Best selling system
N64 - dunno, i dont think it was hacked
PS2 - easy to hack. Sold like crazy.
Gamecube - got hacked late in lifespan. Sold bad.
Xbox - easy hacked I think. Sold okay
Wii - very easy to hack. Sells like crazy.
Xbox 360 - easy to hack - sells good.
PS3 - well, nothing on the market yet. Worst selling.
Click to expand...

Brilliant. You've discovered a correlation (not a very strong one) that easy to hack consoles, tend to have strong hardware sales.
 
darkwings said:
it is the only exception to the rule really.
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PSP

It's great being able to exploit the system to be able to run homebrew. That will be great, compensating lack of features, being able to play emulators, making the console region-free for blurays... it's a benefit for the users and also enhances the value of the console.

But, if the exploit is as easy as installing something on a memory stick, without chips or even buying anything AND allows to run ISOS, then Sony has a real problem.
 
darkwings said:
it is the only exception to the rule really.
Click to expand...
Gamecube wasn't hacked because it didn't have many online games until phatasy star online. The other consoles were all online. A handheld like N-Gage 2 weeks after launch was hacked. Not talking about ps1/n64 though.
 
Some of the comments in this thread since the exploit was released are sad. What did you want, a new icon in the XMB labeled 'FREE GAMES'?

Getting the 'Other OS', in most cases Linux, to have full access to the hardware was always the goal. With this barrier overcome it opens the door to homebrew that can use the full power of the system. From what I understand decrypting the XMB isn't even facilitated, which could mean homebrew with no piracy. This would be great.
 
N64 Doctor allowed you to play backed up games and they've only just released a cartridge that has flash memory on it that you can load roms onto.
 
darkwings said:
PSP isn't as easy hacked as the DS. Enough said.

Gamecube WAS hacked, but it was late because the mini-DVDs wasnt popular and they were more expensive than regular DVDs.
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Gamecube had ISO Loaders before it had Modchips that booted bootleg disks, and there were also wide lid tops that fit full sized disks.
 
Valkyr Junkie said:
Brilliant. You've discovered a correlation (not a very strong one) that easy to hack consoles, tend to have strong hardware sales.
Click to expand...

What needs to happen is that everyone subscribes to the light/dark console theory.

NES (light) vs Master System (dark) - NES won
SNES (light) vs Genesis (dark) - SNES won
PS (light) vs Saturn (dark) vs N64 (dark) vs 3D0 (dark) vs Jaguar (dark) - PS won
Wii (lightest) vs Xbox 360 (light) vs PS3 (dark) - Wii is winning
Gameboy (light) vs Lynx (dark) vs Game Gear (dark) - Gameboy Won
Nintendo DS (silver so it was light) vs PSP (dark) - Nintendo DS is winning

The only mishap to this whole theory is:

PS2 (dark) vs Xbox (dark) vs Dreamcast (light)

In which of course leave it to Sega to screw things up on their hardware exit :D
 
Seems like sour grapes from the guy.

Marty Chinn said:
What needs to happen is that everyone subscribes to the light/dark console theory.

NES (light) vs Master System (dark) - NES won
SNES (light) vs Genesis (dark) - SNES won
PS (light) vs Saturn (dark) vs N64 (dark) vs 3D0 (dark) vs Jaguar (dark) - PS won
Wii (lightest) vs Xbox 360 (light) vs PS3 (dark) - Wii is winning
Gameboy (light) vs Lynx (dark) vs Game Gear (dark) - Gameboy Won
Nintendo DS (silver so it was light) vs PSP (dark) - Nintendo DS is winning

The only mishap to this whole theory is:

PS2 (dark) vs Xbox (dark) vs Dreamcast (light)

In which of course leave it to Sega to fuck things up :D
Click to expand...

HEH that's kind of neat. :P
 
Guys darkwings discovered the secret to video game success. Selling hardware at a loss and not being able to make it up with software sales is the recipe for success. Also research shows that gamers who pirate games also spend the most in gaming. While they download games, they heavily visit game concerts and buy game DVDs for example.
 
darkwings said:
PSP isn't as easy hacked as the DS. Enough said.
Click to expand...

Not now, but in the 1.0, 1.5, 2.0 era, the exploits were easy. Too easy. And it was one of the reasons why games company stopped betting in PSP, also, with the problem that the firmware updates created the wrong effect, where it was easier to play ISOS than playing original games using a hacking firmware, so even people not interested in piracy stop buying games. Also, the is a big difference in the userbase of the DS and the PSP that explain why piracy affects more one than the other.

But, whatever, I think that nearly all agree that the best situation should be being able to have full control of homebrew in PS3, but keeping any exploit used to run ISOS out of the public. Not only will affect sales and, then, the possibility of new games, also Sony will be less active blocking the homebrew if piracy is out of the equation.
 
In the interest of openness, I've decided to release the exploit. Hopefully, this will ignite the PS3 scene, and you will organize and figure out how to use this to do practical things, like the iPhone when jailbreaks were first released. I have a life to get back to and can't keep working on this all day and night.
Click to expand...

I'd say that means he's giving up, or at least for now.

I'm not going to immediately jump to conclusions, but my guess is that frustration with the hardware security measures got to him. Can't see any other reason why he'd work on it for six weeks, get an exploit, and then quit.

I took a look at the exploit itself. It requires you to touch a solder point on the motherboard after installing the exploit in a Linux Installation in OtherOS. The exploit clearly won't work on Slims, and it seems that the GameOS is rock solid still.

I give him props for having the patience and skill to get this far, but I think IBM/Sony just did a damn fine job on the security.

Edit: I fail.
 
darkwings said:
correct me if I am wrong, but haven't the console which has been easiest to hack always been the best selling system? There is no proof that a hacked console suffer. Quite the opposite.

PS1 - easy to hack. Best selling system
N64 - dunno, i dont think it was hacked
PS2 - easy to hack. Sold like crazy.
Gamecube - got hacked late in lifespan. Sold bad.
Xbox - easy hacked I think. Sold okay
Wii - very easy to hack. Sells like crazy.
Xbox 360 - easy to hack - sells good.
PS3 - well, nothing on the market yet. Worst selling.
Click to expand...

So are you suggesting that the hacking of the PS2 and Wii led to their success or that due to their success, it led to be hacked? Just FYI those console's success had nothing to do with the easiness of it being hacked/exploited.
 
AbortedWalrusFetus said:
I'd say that means he's giving up, or at least for now.

I'm not going to immediately jump to conclusions, but my guess is that frustration with the hardware security measures got to him. Can't see any other reason why he'd work on it for six weeks, get an exploit, and then quit.

I took a look at the exploit itself. It requires you to touch a solder point on the motherboard after installing the exploit in a Linux Installation in OtherOS. The exploit clearly won't work on Slims, and it seems that the GameOS is rock solid still.

I give him props for having the patience and skill to get this far, but I think IBM/Sony just did a damn fine job on the security.

Edit: I fail.
Click to expand...

It's my understanding that he's more of a hacker than a coder, and lacks the programming skills to take this any further. He's released the exploit so that those better equipped to make advances can take a stab at it. Or did I misunderstand something?
 
Mejilan said:
It's my understanding that he's more of a hacker than a coder, and lacks the programming skills to take this any further. He's released the exploit so that those better equipped to make advances can take a stab at it. Or did I misunderstand something?
Click to expand...

I'm a coder and not a hacker, but some of the code and such that he has running in the exploit shows that he has a pretty sophisticated understanding of how software works. I don't know if I'd say that he's unable to take it further based on what I've seen. I mean, he should have been capable of far more than he has shown.

It may be a time thing, a frustration thing, or giving up. I can't say. I just wouldn't go so far as to say he's unable to take it further.
 
Yep, making a driver from the scratch it's a very difficult and long work. Also because the drivers may change in each update.

And is not only the driver. Is the whole OS. Right now it seems that he's able to use all the resources of the system (and he's not very sure about having full access to the GPU). But this is nothing related to hacking the OS.

So, unless someone is able to make a PS3 OS from reverse-engineering (that I don't think that is even possible), the only think that this hack can do is to have a PS3 that runs only OtherOS, or maybe in the future, Linux (with full access to GPU, with luck), but nothing related to hack the system in a similar way of the hacks of other consoles.
 
That Digital Foundry article reads as a convoluted way of describing water as wet and clear. Nothing new, nothing that seemingly more intelligent people in this thread haven't described in a clearer, less mealy mouthed manner. The tonal shifts between acknowledgment of the difficulty of the enterprise, fawning over Geohot's claims, and talk of the inevitability of PS3 software piracy makes for whiplash. And the Lionel Hutz lawyer talk at the end: lol. Should stick to console warz graphics debates; at least those qualities are mostly quantifiable.

"Hello World" or bust. Without the root key, Geohot''s buzzing around a hypervisor honeypot.

Kanna Shimizu probably chuckled for a few seconds, and then she went back to work.
 
wonderkins said:
Kanna Shimizu probably chuckled for a few seconds, and then she went back to work.
Click to expand...
She's actually kinda cute. This is the only picture I could find of her though.

21jdojr.png
 
Green Biker Dude said:
well, if i understood it right - and i really don't remember the difference between cell's ppus, spus, spes and whatever - the blog dude who discredited geohot said that the root key can't be retrieved by hardware or software, and that at best he'd be able to copy encrypted data from the spe.

so, the data he could get would be encrypted by a key he can't retrieve. and he hasn't even gotten that data yet, it seems. that's disregarding the possibility of a vulnerability somewhere, of course.

even if this guy doesn't find anything, i think he's gotten enough attention to how hard hacking the ps3 is, which is actually bad for the ps3's security. hackers like the challenge of breaking the "unbreakable", so i think this'll get more people with skills interested. although, it also seems sony/ibm are pretty confident in their architecture, so maybe it won't be hacked anytime in the next couple of years
Click to expand...

didnt Sony start a competition and offer a reward when the ps3 was first released to try and hack it?
 
I read the security architecture of PS3 and suddenly I am a fan of the architect.
It awesome that PS3 still defies all the hackers even after 3 years of prodding and poking!!
 
beast786 said:
We are society of winners and losers. We need to know

So who won and who lost?
Click to expand...

Well, Geohotz got a crapton of attention for doing something no one's done before. He won. The PS3 stood up to the toughest hack yet and only gave up some info on low-level function calls that can't really be used for any piracy or homebrew in GameOS. So Sony won. All the hackers that had been working on cracking the PS3 that said geohotz was barking up the wrong tree won.

Legitimate homebrew may have won a minor victory now that there's further confirmation that the RSX was never locked out in linux, it just needed documentation. The hypervisor dump may help with that.

The losers? Pirates. :)

I suspect this is just the first game in a series though, one that'll last until the PS4 is released.

If Sony hadn't already given up on OtherOS with the Slim, we would have definitely lost it with this little stunt. Either way, Sony's never doing that again. :(
 
sharath_kumar said:
I read the security architecture of PS3 and suddenly I am a fan of the architect.
It awesome that PS3 still defies all the hackers even after 3 years of prodding and poking!!
Click to expand...

Yes, it also makes me wonder what type of security Sony has planed for the PSP2 and PS4
And The security success that Sony and IBM have had with the PS3 must have been
noted by MS and Nintendo

This maybe the last Gen with fully hacked video game consoles
 
Schrade said:
She's actually kinda cute. This is the only picture I could find of her though.

21jdojr.png
Click to expand...

LOL. I'm such a creeper. She has a facebook page @ kanna.shimizu

The profile image is clearer than yours.

Yeah, she is cute. I feel very tempted to message her and ask of her thoughts on geohot's hack.
 
racerx said:
LOL. I'm such a creeper. She has a facebook page @ kanna.shimizu

The profile image is clearer than yours.

Yeah, she is cute. I feel very tempted to message her and ask of her thoughts on geohot's hack.
Click to expand...

If you do, be nice. She could probably hack your brain with a Pringles can and a flashlight. ;) Check out the degrees she has. O_o


jett said:
How can the PS3 be so secure and the PSP such a POS?
Click to expand...

For once in Sony's existence they learned a lesson. :lol
 
jett said:
How can the PS3 be so secure and the PSP such a POS?
Click to expand...

*Shrugs* Different design teams? Different design philosophy?

It seems that when designing Cell security was a top priority, but not so much with the PSP.
But you can be sure that Sony learned a very tough hard lession with the PSP. And you can
bet the PSP2 will be locked down tight.
 
Trailblaster said:
It seems that when designing Cell security was a top priority
Click to expand...

I guess when you're selling new console hardware at a significant loss you'd want to be damn sure users are unable to source free software.
 
Trailblaster said:
Yes, it also makes me wonder what type of security Sony has planed for the PSP2 and PS4
And The security success that Sony and IBM have had with the PS3 must have been
noted by MS and Nintendo

This maybe the last Gen with fully hacked video game consoles
Click to expand...
Slap on an SPE and a Hypervisor and call it a day?
 
bmf said:
Slap on an SPE and a Hypervisor and call it a day?
Click to expand...

Hypervisors have really helped especially since they can provide general protection against buffer overflows which is the the primary entry point for hackers. They've definately made a huge difference. Given what we've seen it would be stupid not to encorporate one into next-gen hardware.
 
First steps are always very interesting, I look forward to see where this goes as I would like to see a PS3 linux that has full access to the hardware, it would be as powerfull as a PC 2-3x its cost which is well worth it.



Slightly offtopic

Considering that the PSP has PS3 linkage, Remote play etc would it not be possible to hack the PS3 with the already hacked PSP? Makes me wonder why the PS3 could of not been hacked from this angle much sooner. The thing is many items on the PS Store are for PSP and PS3, meaning they would have to be signed in such a way for both systems to run (PS1 games / PSP Mini's being the prime example).

Where am I going with this? Well in the last month or so Datel released proof that they can sign Eboots to run on PSP's with their newest Action Replay that works on all PSP's including the PSPGO, there is even a demo you can acquire of the product.

Assuming that the PS3 can recognise and run signed PSP code, which is how the PS1/Mini games work from the store on both systems. So if the method to sign a PSP Eboot is discovered then not only will all PSP's be hacked (again) but it also potentially opens up the PS3 to hacks that cannot be easily (or at all) patched/detected by Sony if the PSP signed Eboot runs on the PS3 system. It will just read it as software it is allowed to run, no hacking required.

In short there is a high chance that the PSP-PS3 compatibility is the way forward if this hack leads to a wall because software can be signed for both systems to accept. If someone can get it to work on one (The PSP) then it will also work on its counterpart (The PS3) providing the software can fool it into something it is allowed to run (A PSP Mini).
 
Somnid said:
Hypervisors have really helped especially since they can provide general protection against buffer overflows which is the the primary entry point for hackers. They've definately made a huge difference.
Click to expand...
Yep. Embedding the root key in it's own chunk of silicon seems to be a pretty decent strategy too. Confirming the validity of the DVD drive at boot-up and game start probably would have saved MS some trouble - for instance if they did some sort of checksum of the installed firmware against a database of known good firmwares. Still pretty awesome how well MS was able to block unsigned code for close to 4 years before a bug finally got them, and even then, any 360 that received a firmware update past a certain date is invulnerable to the attack if I'm understanding what's gone on correctly. If IBM is delivering the CPUs for all 3 next generation machines, then that may be that for early generation console piracy.
 
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