Right Let's Try This Again: PS3 Hypervisor Hacked

H_Prestige said:
Isn't it software, just like the ps2 and ps1 themselves?
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Nope, region locking is in the hardware. Again, look at the Net Yaroze and it could play any game from any region. Software wasn't any different... just the hardware. So that means that Sony is purposely making the PS3 not play out of region PS1 and PS2 games when they could.
 
OldJadedGamer said:
Nope, region locking is in the hardware. Again, look at the Net Yaroze and it could play any game from any region. Software wasn't any different... just the hardware. So that means that Sony is purposely making the PS3 not play out of region PS1 and PS2 games when they could.
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They could, but it's licensing. Besides, PAL/NTSC PSX games are able to be played on the PS3/PSP if you buy them through PSN now anyway... IIRC?
 
OldJadedGamer said:
Nope, region locking is in the hardware. Again, look at the Net Yaroze and it could play any game from any region. Software wasn't any different... just the hardware. So that means that Sony is purposely making the PS3 not play out of region PS1 and PS2 games when they could.
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And my understanding is that the hardware between a jp and na 60gb ps3 is exactly the same, only the firmware is different. A jp ps3 could technically play ntsc u/c software and a na ps3 could play ntsc j software if they were allowed to.
 
H_Prestige said:
And my understanding is that the hardware between a jp and na 60gb ps3 is exactly the same, only the firmware is different. A jp ps3 could technically play ntsc u/c software and a na ps3 could play ntsc j software if they were allowed to.
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And PAL if using an HDTV.
 
hauton said:
Sony wins?
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Left to their own accord and considering their history of exploitation it's almost a certainty that the PS3 would have fallen just as fast as the PS1, PS2 and PSP have. They went with a professional this time around. IBM wins.
 
Truespeed said:
Left to their own accord and considering their history of exploitation it's almost a certainty that the PS3 would have fallen just as fast as the PS1, PS2 and PSP have. They went with a professional this time around. IBM wins.
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well, the cell was developed by Sony, IBM and Toshiba so it was a joint effort.
 
I hope PS3 never gets hacked for ANY justification.

What I do hope to learn over time is why in the world is PS3 the only console (and probably system) that hasn't been hacked yet. That is just amazing and I wonder if other console manufacturers will use the same measures in the future.
 
Found a decent technical analysis from a security website.


Sony appears to have done a great job with the security of the PS3. It all hangs together well, with no obvious weak points. However, the low level access given to guest OS kernels means that any bug in the hypervisor is likely to be accessible to attacker code due to the broad API it offers. For example, if the kernel could not specify the HTAB address when creating a virtual segment and instead the hypervisor allocated it for the kernel, this attack would have been more difficult. One simple fix would be to read back the state of each mapping after changing it. If the write failed for some reason, the hypervisor would see this and halt.
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That wouldn't affect Linux much, if at all. I'd expect something like that in the next firmware update, after a very careful review of the hypervisor and critical system libraries.

Overall, the author seems to think that an eventual software exploit from the hackers reviewing the hypervisor dump is pretty likely. I tend to agree, but at this rate we won't be too far from the PS4 by the time anything of consequence outside of Linux is released.
 
OldJadedGamer said:
And PAL if using an HDTV.
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Actually it already plays any PS1 games on PSN - those have always been region free. I expect the PS2 games (if they show up) will follow the same way.
That said, when people say "software region locking" they are referring to Firmware, not games. I think it's safe to say that's where region locks are on PS3.
 
OldJadedGamer said:
Nope, region locking is in the hardware. Again, look at the Net Yaroze and it could play any game from any region. Software wasn't any different... just the hardware. So that means that Sony is purposely making the PS3 not play out of region PS1 and PS2 games when they could.
Click to expand...

Yaroze was a cheap prosumer devkit. Playstation devkits have never, IIRC, enforced regioning; most don't even bother with a media check.

If anything, wouldn't it be going out of the way to produce a set of new consumer PS2 BIOSes that skipped check?
 
MasterTeacher said:
Hacking an Iphone vs. a PS3 is like trying to break into a rundowned liquor store at night for a cheap beer vs trying to break into a high security nuke missile facility and steal the launch codes and a nuclear warhead.
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:lol :lol :lol


gcubed said:
so in light of the other blog post, can this even be called a "hack"? Or is he just having fun programming in OtherOS
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Sounds like that latter. He may have found of few peeks/pokes that weren't initially thought to be available, but it doesn't appear to have any hacking implications.
 
darkwings said:
it is the only exception to the rule really.
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Not really. You said GC sold bad, it actually sold similar to Xbox. You also point to the PS3 as selling the worst, it's tracking similar to the 360 WW. You are underestimating their sales in order to fit your theory.
 
MGR said:
Props to her.

3 years later and this 'exploit' is the closest we've got to a hacked PS3.
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And it's quite likely this isn't getting us any closer to the PS3 being hacked at all.


It may have ramifications for creating a more sophisticated OtherOS, but who knows what sort of support that will get.
 
chicko1983 said:
well, the cell was developed by Sony, IBM and Toshiba so it was a joint effort.
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Yep. The main differentiator here is that they created a processor, etc from the ground up, so incorporating serious protection was more viable. It's at the root of the design.
 
A Google translation of this site seems to indicate that Geohot's exploit works for backups after all.

PS3 officially break into the market of pirated games
Author: hua hua Original Posted :2010-02-01 10:06

Beijing January 31 I received a shocking piece of news, current Blu-ray PS3 game piracy has begun to market the game in Shenyang hoarding goods business in the hands, due to changed methods have not spread to the domestic machine, so not yet on sale.

Currently known for this group of pirated PS3 games Blu-ray machines to provide methods to change a crack team of Canada, who in the United States hacker George Hotz (George Hotz) announced PS3 crack method, started to scrutinize the PS3 disc encryption system, now capture the tests all run through 15 games. These include popular RPG masterpiece, "Final Fantasy 13."

The hack to change the hard way to run straight reading of blue-off burning discs, I have personally witnessed pirated PS3's Blu-ray discs, games, a lot of work to ensure attractive, according to insiders revealed that PS, pirated games sold at 25-30 or so, There is also information that the current accumulation of a large number of PS3 game console business in preparation for brewing a price increase after the break wave is said to rise as high as 700.
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Today I validated my theories about running the isolated SPUs on the PS3 as crypto engines. The PS3 is 100% hacked. So where my homebrew at?
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http://twitter.com/geohot/status/9046144136

Today I verified my theories about running the isolated SPUs as crypto engines. I believe that defeats the last technical argument against the PS3 being hacked.

In OtherOS, all 7 SPUs are idle. You can command an SPU(which I'll leave as an exercise to the reader) to load metldr, from that load the loader of your choice, and from that decrypt what you choose, everything from pkgs to selfs. Including those from future versions.

The PPU is higher on the control chain then the SPUs. Even if checks were to be added to, for example, verify the hypervisor before decrypting the kernel, with clever memory mappings you can hide your modified hypervisor.

Ah, but you still didn't get the Cell root key. And I/we never will. But it doesn't matter. For example, we don't have either the iPhone or PSP "root key". But I don't think anyone doubts the hackedness of those systems.

I wonder if any systems out there are actually secure?
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http://geohotps3.blogspot.com/

Didn't see this posted anywhere.
 
Unless I can play japanese ps2 games on my NA ps3 without butchering it, then this means nothing to me. I really wish Sony didn't make the ps3 so tough to crack.
 
Psychotext said:
I don't understand what most of that means. :(
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No worries. There's nothing really to understand. It's the equivalent of fail cat saying, "I am not good with computer." He's just too full of himself to admit it. Maybe PS3 phats will be able to use an OtherOS/hypervisor hack. Everyone else (which will become the majority of PS3 owners overtime) will find this useless. And he's using a sleight of hand to compare this with what was done with the iPhone and PSP. Laughable.

lol lol lol. For the record, I'd love for someone to reach root so that the Blu-ray playback can be "fixed" and the PS3 can be made into a more capable all-purpose media player. But, it isn't going to happen.
 
Sounds like he made an interesting step forward in that he can decrypt pretty much whatever from OtherOS. Problem is he still can't run or sign squat, and is basically admitting it in his replies on the blog. So people will be able to rip assets from games now, and maybe peek a little deeper into firmware releases, but that's about it.

Honestly, I'm impressed his team (he's working with several people now) managed to get that far. I assumed the decryption SPU would have more safeguards in the decryption code (checks to make sure current hypervisor was valid, stuff like that).

And even if someone does find a bug to exploit in a decrypted firmware, there's still no way of encrypting the firmware again so that a retail PS3 will install it.

And he never did find any RSX hypervisor calls in OtherOS. There's a couple other groups trying his hack and they've promised to release their hypervisor dump when they get it, so I guess there's still hope there.
 
avaya said:
What's the betting the next firmware update disables OtherOS?
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This is Sony. Removing features is their game.

That said, even though I'm a big linux nerd, even I can't bring myself to use the gimped implementation on the PS3. It's brutal, and near useless for just about everyone (other than Cell programmers). I take exception to the idea of removing a paid for feature, but in reality, I have no use for it at all. Shame, really.
 
avaya said:
What's the betting the next firmware update disables OtherOS?
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I don't think they will, as I'm sure Sony knows if they remove features in a. Required update they could open themselves to a lawsuit so easily, as the system no longer does what it says on the box.
 
SecretBonusPoint said:
If Geohot has it "all figured out" why doesn't he just do it then? Talks the talk, but it appears his legs are invisible.
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In his own way, he actually has admitted his attempts have been futile. He's just too immodest to state it in a manner a more humble individual would.
 
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-geohot-ps3-update-blog-entry

A couple of things:

geohotz says he can read (write?) gameos code. Not clear exactly what access he has from the eurogamer article, but take it as you wish.

Secondly, in shitty news, a fixstars employee (the yellow dog linux people) wrote on their message board that he heard from a 'reputable source' that OtherOS will be removed from all PS3s in the next firmware update. A rumour so, but something to be mindful of if you have a PS3 fat running Linux - don't update your fw until you know it doesn't patch out access. This guy's post has been deleted since.

If it were true, though, Sony would have quite the messaging challenge at hand. Would have to make sure no one accidentally updated their ps3 and lost a bunch of data, suing Sony about it. Although on the other hand, maybe they could remove access just for people who haven't already got a otheros up and running...to prevent 'new' users from using it just for hacking exploits or geohotz copy-cat hacking. I dunno though, whole thing's a mess if true.
 
gofreak said:
If it were true, though, Sony would have quite the messaging challenge at hand. Would have to make sure no one accidentally updated their ps3 and lost a bunch of data, suing Sony about it. Although on the other hand, maybe they could remove access just for people who haven't already got a otheros up and running...to prevent 'new' users from using it just for hacking exploits or geohotz copy-cat hacking. I dunno though, whole thing's a mess if true.
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If the PS3 can detect OtherOS installs when running Sony's own system, then Sony could
  • download different firmwares, one that continues to allow OtherOS support and one that doesn't, depending on what you have installed.
  • put up a huge set of "Are you sure!?!?!?!" screens in the firmware installer when someone is going to disable their OtherOS install.
At least, I'd hope they'd be careful about it. :|
 
That Eurogamer article makes loads of jumps in logic and assumptions, and is based on 'The Hotz's kinda weak-willed "NO SRSLY, I'VE DONE IT!!!?" blog assertion a few weeks ago. Still of course, nothing tangible to show or release.
 
gofreak said:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-geohot-ps3-update-blog-entry

A couple of things:

geohotz says he can read (write?) gameos code. Not clear exactly what access he has from the eurogamer article, but take it as you wish.

Secondly, in shitty news, a fixstars employee (the yellow dog linux people) wrote on their message board that he heard from a 'reputable source' that OtherOS will be removed from all PS3s in the next firmware update. A rumour so, but something to be mindful of if you have a PS3 fat running Linux - don't update your fw until you know it doesn't patch out access. This guy's post has been deleted since.

If it were true, though, Sony would have quite the messaging challenge at hand. Would have to make sure no one accidentally updated their ps3 and lost a bunch of data, suing Sony about it. Although on the other hand, maybe they could remove access just for people who haven't already got a otheros up and running...to prevent 'new' users from using it just for hacking exploits or geohotz copy-cat hacking. I dunno though, whole thing's a mess if true.
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If this is even true, i guess they're assuming the tons of PS3 clusters the Air Force and other various companies that use PS3 through linux as servers won't be updating their firmware anytime soon.
 
TONX said:
If this is even true, i guess they're assuming the tons of PS3 clusters the Air Force and other various companies that use PS3 through linux as servers won't be updating their firmware anytime soon.
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If you're running that sort of thing I doubt you're going to be just randomly updating your firmware anyway.
 
It is getting more interesting if he has been able to access GameOS.

Sony would have a big interest in staying ahead of the curve with this one. Expect a serious Firmware war!!
 
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