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[RaymondCarver]

Actions like this are not anything new from either party.

 

[videogamer]

?

you quoted matlock. he wasn't talking about innocence

 

[ManaByte]

Actions like this are not anything new from either party.

Yup.

 

[Saint Cornelius]

Actions like this are not anything new from either party.

Since we're repeating things - does that make it ok, since both parties are guilty?

 

[Mike Works]

Saying "No one is innocent in politics" in this particular situation is akin to looking at a serial child rapist and a petty tax evador sharing the same jail cell and saying, "No one is innocent in prison".

 

[Mandark]

Manabyte:

1) You were owned. Totally and thoroughly. You jumped on the "fake story" bandwagon and it ran into a ditch. Ha ha ha, a Dan Rather joke! Brilliant!

2) Fitzhugh totally denies his campaign handed out that flier. Is there any evidence they did other than the Dahl campaign's accusation?

3)

Doesn't mean the story's bogus by itself, but this thing is as old as dirt. What are the odds a campaign would badly Photoshop an ancient internet gag that they had to know would be horribly offensive?

4) Even if it's true (which I really doubt at this point), it's NOT comparable at all. One is a stupid, offensive thing to say, the other is depriving people of their ability to vote.

5) Where did you pick up the Tennessee story, anyway? Newsmax? Drudge? FreeRepublic? Townhall? Little Green Footballs? WorldNetDaily? Instapundit?

6) What Mike said. Really, "Everyone does this" is total nonsense that people say to either, 1) show everyone else how worldly they are, or 2) play down crimes committed by a faction they support.

7) This is yet another reason no girl will ever willingly touch you.

 

[Matlock]

6) What Mike said. Really, "Everyone does this" is total nonsense that people say to either, 1) show everyone else how worldly they are, or 2) play down crimes committed by a faction they support.

To set the story straight, I only said that because I've witnessed the same kind of strategies first-hand in my work canvassing this summer. No shredder for the reps (that I'm aware of), but we were told to never say our mission was registration if they didn't have a spark for Kerry.

Mind you, it all fucking sucks equally.

 

[videogamer]

the image came from Drudge

 

[Mandark]

Matlock: No, it does not suck equally. Trying to register people for your side is one thing (though you were working for a 527, and I'm not surea bout the law there), but letting people think they're registered, then shredding their forms is basically disenfranchising people.

It does not suck equal. It sucks harder.

 

[Matlock]

Matlock: No, it does not suck equally. Trying to register people for your side is one thing (though you were working for a 527, and I'm not surea bout the law there), but letting people think they're registered, then shredding their forms is basically disenfranchising people.

It does not suck equal. It sucks harder.

Differing views.

As was said earlier: biased third parties should not be able to register people--the best reform here would be an automatic registering via the government.

of course, moralistic ideals go out the window for $8 an hour

Edit: Also, who's to say the 'ol boy collecting the registrations didn't throw a couple away here and there? Because I didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

I guess the main point I'm trying to make here is...well, there is no real point. Every once in a while, when a big enough election rolls around, everyone does some underhanded dealings to try to get ahead. Look hard enough, and you'll find it. It's been this way for centuries.

Does it make it right? Heavens no.

Does it make any one of us jackasses here in the teenage wasteland that is the internet a sudden moral compass? Nope.

It's all been done before, and as our ignorance continues, history will keep repeating itself. Right, Harry?

 

[Mandark]

Not helping someone register, and preventing someone from registering are different things. Things that happen and things that you can't be positive didn't happen are different things. These are not difficult concepts.

That was almost as bad as your Fog of War post. Stop it.

 

[Matlock]

Yet you're avoiding the point that election fraud is as old as the hills, and go straight for the ad hominem.

 

[Hitokage]

So, according to Matlock, not doing somebody's registration for them is just as bad as taking somebody's registration then secretly destroying it.... oh I see, it's like the difference between not offering to feed somebody's pets while they go away for the summer and assuring that those pets will be fed then letting them starve... I agree, completely the same.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Whether or not "both sides do it" is besides the point. These particular people need to be caught and severely punished. They're fucking with our freedom.

The trap here is to try and generalize to "sides" being responsible, Republicans or Democrats in general. No, a particular group of people is, and they need to be stopped and an example set (for bozos like this on either side).

 

[Mike Works]

Mind you, it all fucking sucks equally.

No, that's just the thing, it doesn't suck EQUALLY. In fact, one area sucks MORE.

Differing views.

Edit: Also, who's to say the 'ol boy collecting the registrations didn't throw a couple away here and there? Because I didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

I guess the main point I'm trying to make here is...well, there is no real point. Every once in a while, when a big enough election rolls around, everyone does some underhanded dealings to try to get ahead. Look hard enough, and you'll find it. It's been this way for centuries.

Does it make it right? Heavens no.

Does it make any one of us jackasses here in the teenage wasteland that is the internet a sudden moral compass? Nope.

It's all been done before, and as our ignorance continues, history will keep repeating itself.

1) Differing views? Regardless of political affiliation, how could anyone say that a group trying to persuade people registering into voting one way and a group of people who literally prevent you from voting are on the same level?

2) Who's to say the 'ol boy collecting the registrations didn't throw a couple away here and there? Who's to say that Bill Clinton didn't murder 40 some odd people during his term? Who's to say George Bush didn't know Iraq didn't have an abundance of weapons of mass destruction? Who's to say that the centered accusation this entire thread is based on is true?

This does. You can throw around baseless accusations all you want, but that's all they are. Is there a possibility, perhaps even a strong one, that the Democrats of America do exactly the same thing? Sure. Do you have proof? Any links? Any of the stuff that could be found, oh, in this very thread? Because if you don't, then you really don't have much of an argument to stand on. "Well maybe they do it too probably" wouldn't even hold up in a debate against Sharpton.

3) I'm not a teenager (nor even a registered voter in the United States of America), but I suppose you are right in saying that none of our opinions count nor matter because we use the internet.

4) Guess why our ignorance continues. Take a long, hard guess.

Yet you're avoiding the point that election fraud is as old as the hills, and go straight for the ad hominem.

You know what happens when other entities have been both publically and blatantly caught lying or cheating in the general realm of election fraud? They get called on it. Do you know what others do? They shrug their shoulders and say, "Oh well, it's been done before!"

Do you not see how fucking stupid your line of thought is, on this matter or in general (depending on how far you spread it)? I mean, maybe you're just disinfranchised with the whole election process in your country (and I wouldn't blame you there), but to defend the actions of TAKING AWAY A PERSON'S RIGHT TO VOTE because some biased political affiliations had a hand in the Dewey/Truman fuck up back when the world looked like the intro to Cheers is just lethargically ignorant or, to put it another way, really, really fucking stupid.

 

[Mandark]

Your points were...

1) Hey, it may have happened on the other side, even though I have no reason to think it did.

2) It's "differing views" whether disenfranchising people is the same as not actively helping them to register.

3) Other people have done bad things in the past.

4) We're on the internet.

Except you're totally ignoring that not all crimes are equal, either across party lines or across history. What the Republicans are doing now is objectively worse than what the Democrats are doing now, and what Democrats did in the late 1800's is objectively worth than both.

"Well, other people have done bad things, so what's the point?" It's a common, worn-out, stupid straw man adopted by people affecting a jaded attitude and avoiding critical thinking.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

If you stop saying "the republicans are doing..." and just talk about this group, you'll get a lot further. Generalizing the actions to a whole party leads to stupid games ala Drudge and Limbaugh, and is intellectually dishonest. It's a ploy to take some moral high ground, which I think is underlying Matlock's apathy.

Go after these assholes, but don't try to say "look at what the Republicans are doing" as if that proves something.

For the record, I'm voting Kerry and I am solidly in the anybody-but-Bush camp. But I can't stand to see the partisanship cloud out the issues of something as serious as this.

 

[ErasureAcer]

this was actually getting some press on national news stations today. I was flippin around at 5:30...and I forgot which one covered it...but one of them did...think it was NBC. My local news covered this during their national report but it didn't say what party was affiliated with the people being disenfrashised (bastards...one of the anchors has a wife who is a key member of the Republican Governors' cabinet).

So this is getting out in the press...which is good. Hopefully everyone who thinks they're allowed to vote on Nov. 2 will be allowed to vote.

 

[Matlock]

4) Guess why our ignorance continues. Take a long, hard guess.

Because when it's not election time, and it's not underhanded dealing for the guy you hate the most, you don't give a shit.

As for those claiming I'm defending the actoin, you're completely misreading it. I'm instead saying that claiming that them damn Republicans are responsible, citing the action of a small group is brought down and agreed upon by every Grand Old Partier in the entire nation...well, that crosses a line*.

But keep thinking that, guys.

I've already cast my vote.

I know who I want.

And he ain't Bush.



*A line made by the fact I am a registered Republican, for voting in primaries alone.

 

[Mandark]

Go after these assholes, but don't try to say "look at what the Republicans are doing" as if that proves something.

If this were just an isolated incident, that might be the case. But there is a pattern in recent years that has Republican party operatives committing more legal and ethical election violations.

You have the bogus felon list in Florida this year, the absentee ballots in South Dakota, the phone-jamming in New Hampshire two years ago, Sinclair's in-kind donation to the Bush campaign, illegally soliciting money to fund the redistricting push in Texas, and a ton of instances black voter suppression/intimidation, collected by the NAACP and PFAW.

One side is clearly more willing to do certain things to win elections. Other than trying to project an image of impartiality, why pretend otherwise?

 

[Mike Works]

Because when it's not election time, and it's not underhanded dealing for the guy you hate the most, you don't give a shit.

Guy I hate the most? Are you kidding? I love Bush!

He makes Canada and Canadians look fucking awesome.

And if the Government of Canada attempted to pass a bill or whatever the equivolent is up here which would prevent people of my agregroup/location/ethnicity/whatever from VOTING- even though the next election won't be for many, many years, it might just be me, but yeah, I'd give a shit.

 

[Matlock]

I'll ask you in two years, then.

 

[Mike Works]

So if you had the right to vote taken away from you in 2006, ensuring that you would not be able to vote in 2008, you wouldn't care?

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

One side is clearly more willing to do certain things to win elections. Other than trying to project an image of impartiality, why pretend otherwise?

Only because it's not clear to me. It seems that way-- but it's also being used like politcal bludgeon, and I haven't investigated any deeper than that. Or perhaps I live in Chicago, where the local Democratic party machine is famous for ghost-voting and the like.

 

[clipunderground]

Speaking of Bush, I noticed him getting owned again tonight, live! I think the vice president holds his own much better. Anyway, I just submitted my registration forms a couple weeks ago. If I get shafted from voting, I'm gonna be pretty fucking pissed. >:|

 

[Banjo Tango]

You have the bogus felon list in Florida this year, the absentee ballots in South Dakota, the phone-jamming in New Hampshire two years ago, Sinclair's in-kind donation to the Bush campaign, illegally soliciting money to fund the redistricting push in Texas, and a ton of instances black voter suppression/intimidation, collected by the NAACP and PFAW.

There's another one I heard on NPR... Florida and several other states enacted laws to protect against disenfranchisement. In the case of the Florida law, they stated you must vote at your designated location (before, you could cast your ballot anywhere within your county). The election official being interviewed was complaining that since they were being swamped with registrations, it was going to take a real effort to make sure everyone knew where their specific locations were.

He went on to say that some group had been gathering signatures for what was supposedly a petition to legalize marijuana... and then used the information to switch the signees' registrations to another county. However, in his estimation there were far too many new registrations for the actions of a few asshats to make any real impact. Not sure how he arrived at that conclusion, given the situation 4 years ago.

 

[Mandark]

Your argument was not that all Republicans were being unfairly grouped with the fraudsters. Your argument was that actions by Democratic organizations "suck equally." Don't move the bridge.

And if you don't like ad hominem attacks, don't make accusations of bad faith, which is really just a specific type of ad hominem. Not to mention the accusation is unsupported, except for the fact that we're complaining more about a real, organized voter disenfranchisement effort than a totally hypothetical violation.

 

[Matlock]

Your argument was not that all Republicans were being unfairly grouped with the fraudsters. Your argument was that actions by Democratic organizations "suck equally." Don't move the bridge.

Ah, but now you're putting words in my mouth. What I've been saying from day one is that it ain't just the Reps that have been doing it.

 

[Mandark]

Ah, but now you're putting words in my mouth. What I've been saying from day one is that it ain't just the Reps that have been doing it.

Mind you, it all fucking sucks equally.

?

 

[Matlock]

Which fits in with my line of argument. Jesus, pick someone else's nits.

 

[ErasureAcer]

The judge decided to not let people reregister in Nevada. Thus, the people who registered as Dems by this GOP backed group and had their registrations destroyed CAN NOT VOTE ON NOV. 2.

If I were one of these people I'd probably kill the judge. Bush is now probably going to carry Nevada(even though he fucked the state over) and Harry Reid's chances of retaining his senate seat just took a big hit.

I hope the people in Nevada protest like crazy...

Link should be coming soon on the judge's decision...but it was for the GOP(according to DU people in Nevada watching local news).

this site should update soon with the story:
http://www.klas-tv.com/Global/story.asp?S=1327294&nav=168XKZOq

 

[Catchpenny]

Reid isn't in any real danger of losing his seat, despite the narrow margin with which he won it last time. Kerry is a different story, as I think this will be a very tight state in the presidential race.

Full story from KLAS

This morning, Judge Valerie Adair basically accepted as fact that voter registration forms had been destroyed by someone and that an unknown number of voters were in danger of being disenfranchised as a result. But by Friday afternoon, it was a much different story.

Judge Adair had told the two parties in the case -- the Democratic Party and the elections dept., to go away and hammer out an agreement that would satisfy both, something along the lines of a one day, restricted re-opening of voter registration that would be available to persons who felt they had been scammed by private registration companies.

She told them to cut a deal and to come back in the afternoon. When they came back, there was no discussion of the deal. Instead, the judge ruled from the bench, saying there wasn't a lot of proof.

She said of the five torn up registrations, only two were legitimate and such a small number did not warrant re-opening voter registration. She said she needed more concrete evidence and added, "This will create additional fraud and manipulation."

During the morning hearing, Judge Adair had accepted the premise that egregious acts had been committed by someone in the destruction of registration forms. By later, she said the allegations were unsubstantiated, even though she chose not to hear testimony or to ask questions about other documentation that was offered to the court.

 

[ErasureAcer]

Considering a state 5 or 10x times the population of Nevada was seperated by "527 votes" in 2000...I can't possibly see how the judge can say..."oh...we only have proof of a couple of registrations...it's no big deal."

BS.

That judge should be thrown off the bench and then have their vote taken away on November 2. Then let's see if she cares about "one or two registrations".

BS. I hope chaos ensues.