Frozenprince
Banned
Rogue One makes me feel better about Trevorrow on Episode 9.
Y'all trash TFA. Goddamn shame.
Let them hate, we will revel in their tears when VIII destroys them.
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Rogue One opens to $29M during Thursday previews shows in the US+Canada
- Thread starter kswiston
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Let them hate, we will revel in their tears when VIII destroys them.
I thought Alice 2 would do half the DOM gross of the first film which would have been a big drop. Couldn't even sniff that.
I was pretty wrong on that too. I thought that $500M WW was about the floor. It ended up just shy of $300M.
MHWilliams
Member
In Rian we trust.
Razgriz-Specter
Member
Everyone was riding the hype too hard.
Not only did they give you a movie that was a complete rehash, they also completely undid everything the original conflict in the OT was for in a single shot.
So they could make 3 more of the same Rebel vs Empire shit,
honestly as soon as that happened I immediately didn't care about the conflict anymore because even if the Resistance wins they could just do that same thing with X,XI,XII.
Honestly if The First Order somehow maintains a huge presence in VIII after loosing a planet sized base, i'd feel like walking out.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
You'd have loved Empire in 1980 I bet.
PhoncipleBone
Banned
*raises hand* I was so damn wrong with ID4R. Like, BronsonLee on everything wrong.
Razgriz-Specter
Member
No the Empire still made sense, you had a majority of the galaxy still funneling in recruits, money, supplies, everything.
The First Order is small remains backed into a corner, that essentially gets ignored while they put their all into a mega Death Star because it was their only chance.
If they are somehow a bigger presence than the Resistance is at that point it will ruin it for me.
BladeoftheImmortal
Member
Redeemed from book of Eli.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
You had no idea if that was the case in 1977. So far as you knew (and anyone knew, really) blowing up the giant beach ball was all she wrote for that group of assholes.
It wasn't until Empire provided more context in the film itself that you got a sense of the larger Empire. Which you apparently would have regarded as some ol' bullshit if you were around back then based on your reaction to the possibility of the First Order maintaining a large presence in Episode 8.
At least you saw people FLEEING Starkiller Base in The Force Awakens.
Neither presence has to be that large, honestly. The Republic got fucked up, and the First Order lost Starkiller. The Resistance got like half its ships wiped out taking out the base.
Everyone's probably pretty wounded - but I'd imagine Snoke's probably in a better position at this point than the Resistance is.
QuantumZebra
Member
this
still - great film - better than any of the new Star Treks (maybe on par with ST 2009 though
)Razgriz-Specter
Member
Which is my problem because that huge portion of the galaxy that was under the New Republic(at the very least the core planets) should be backing the resistance.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
With what?
And why would they back the resistance? Hell, a lot of those systems probably don't even know there is one.
Again, there's not really much difference between the story continuing past The Force Awakens and the story continuing past Star Wars. Force Awakens actually built out options for a sequel better than Star Wars did. So far as anyone in 1977 would have known, that was the end of the Empire. You could have just as easily argued that any sequel past that point would be "unrealistic" and would "undo the victory" of the previous movie.
It'd be the wrong call, but you could do it.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Yes, not having to construct an object that is 120km in diameter capable of sustaining and housing 1,700,000 people would be the money-saving route.
I applaud you Bobby, but these borderline trolls aren't worth arguing with.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
yeah, but like 3 planets blown up at once? i'd say the Order got a good payoff
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
Not really comparable, IV doesn't give you an exact scope for the size of the empire but it does make apparent that it is largest and most powerful entity of the ones we know about. The Death Star was a new and secret weapon - the empire was large and powerful without it, so blowing it up obviously doesn't mean the instant end of the empire, especially when we know that there is some kind of Emperor somewhere else and we see Darth Vader survive.
In VII, the First Order is only in control of a small sliver of space, while the Republic controls the majority of the Galaxy and the FO just declared war on them. The logical place for that to go is that the FO enjoys initial military success with its fleets, but gets crushed after the Republic actually starts to rebuild a bit because of the immense difference in the scale of each side's resources. But I can pretty much guarantee you that the Republic Steamroller building up forces and defeating the FO in a conventional military sense is not going to be the plot of the films, because those aren't the kinds of movies that people like to make. The good guys need to be the underdog if they want to emulate the OT.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Sure it is. " the empire was large and powerful without it" is really only established in the sequel, not in the original. The Empire is essentially consolidated into that Death Star for the original.
It's very comparable. Blowing it up meant the instant end of the Empire to a lot of people back in 1977. It's not a hypothetical. It was made as a standalone movie. It ended in that manner. Many of the people who watched it that year and the following year thought that was the end. Because up until it started making the most money in film history, it was. That was how the Empire died.
The idea that the end of Star Wars and the end of TFA aren't really comparable w/r/t how the bad guys are left in their defeat doesn't make much sense to me. Especially considering the lingering complaints that Star Wars and TFA are mirror images of each other. Why would it be weird that the First Order survived Starkiller being destroyed if it's not at all weird to assume the Empire survived the Death Star's destruction?
Again, at least TFA managed to show people successfully fleeing Starkiller.
momshotdad
Member
I'm curious to see how it will do in the coming weeks after all of the hardcore Star Wars fans see it. How much appeal does a sequel to the prequels that has nothing to do with the new sequels with the casual audience?
Loved the movie though. Easily one of the best.
Loved the movie though. Easily one of the best.
It's not a "sequel to the prequels." It's a prequel to the original Star Wars.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
What's your definition of "really established"? It's a logical extrapolation from what we see in IV. The Empire has big scary space cruisers and a death star, the Rebels have rinky dink snub fighters. As far as we know the Rebellion doesn't even have a space fleet beyond the tiny Blockade runner that was dwarfed by Vader's capital ship. The Empire can come to Luke's home planet, declare martial law, tear the place apart looking for what they want and blast his family without repercussions. They are the law, and the rebellion needs to use subterfuge and hiding to survive. The fact that the Rebels are hiding on a small moon to evade the powerful empire is a plot point. They say the Death Star is "new", so obviously the Empire was powerful and scary long before that was constructed. We get a sense that the galaxy is larger than we see because there is mention of a space senate (that was just dissolved), we are told of an emperor we never see, we only deal with this Emperor's agents and lieutenants.
Star Wars could have ended with the first movie, definitely true. We as an audience would have assumed that the destruction of the DS safeguarded the Rebellion, which may have gone on to gather more support and win. But at the same time, nothing about it was "final" - the climax of the movie consisted of the underdogs struggling to not be blown up. We can assume that the Rebels eventually go on to win, but this tale is smaller in scope.
It's the universe behind the story that is different, but the plot structures are very very similar. In Ep IV, there is only a rebellion. In Ep VII, there is a small Rebellion, and there is also a massive space republic that controls most of the galaxy.
I don't really agree that the ending of Episode VII was "final" as the other person argues, because it was obviously setting up sequels. But I do think that the two endings have key differences, despite the obvious attempts to make VII similar to IV in many respects.
At this point I feel like the writers have active contempt for the old EU, so I'm not sure we'd see something like that. I think it will be more simplistic, they'll say the First Order struck out with its fleet and the defenseless New Republic couldn't do anything about it. Many planets have now defected to the FO or something like that.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I really dont' think it is, mostly because people at the time didn't logically extrapolate it.
Empire has informed so much about what we know of the Empire, and Jedi solidified it, that it's hard to imagine how Star Wars played as nothing more than a single, stand-alone sci-fi adventure.
Vader spinning off was a hook for a possible sequel, but nobody really regarded it as a sign that there was still a big, strong Empire out there. Just that there was a villain who could somehow be re-used.
TFA has the benefit of building off what we know about Star Wars as a saga, and using that knowledge to build in better hooks. It's set up for sequels better than Star Wars was. Which is partially why Empire is such a miracle - mostly nothing about it should have worked, but it did. Including reintroducing the Empire as somehow a bigger, much more dangerous, scarier threat than it was in Star Wars, when it had a Death Star and all it's top players (save one) assembled upon it, only one of whom managed to get out.
Ep 7 had a shiny exterior plastered on by hundreds of millions in marketing. I'm honestly surprised it lasted this long before people saw through how mediocre-to-bad that movie is. All flash, no substance, no real character growth, the biggest Mary Sue we've ever seen in SW (which is saying a lot), terrible inconsistencies (no map of the galaxy... yet we have one in 2016, magically seeing planets lightyears away get destroyed), all while rehashing ANH practically shot-by-shot.
The adorable BB-8 and the inner turmoil of Kylo Ren were the only noteworthy things to come out of that 2 hour spectacle.
A lot of casual fans loved it, I'm sure. And it's not the worst Star Wars movie (looking at you AOTC). But for people who have followed the franchise for a while became a bit more discerning when constantly encouraged to eat shitty novels, comics, etc.
Rey isn't a Mary Sue, and the fact you "fans" go to that well so often just makes me think you're on stronger drugs than I had post surgery.
Oh sorry, you're right. It's completely reasonable to fly a starship you had never flown before through Death Star 2-corridor type conditions (without a trained co-pilot), reverse mind-read a lifelong trained Jedi within 30 seconds, use force levitation without training or practice, be a better mechanic than Chewbacca (or at least Han). Oh, also out-duels said jedi her first time touching a lightsaber (because there's no difference between that and a two handed wooden staff). I think there are about 2-3 other instances I'm forgetting, but there's no way I'm going to spend time regurgitating the film a third time.
Yep, just typical stuff for a malnourished girl trapped on a desert world most of her life. No Mary Sue here at all...
Xisiqomelir
Member
She flies the Falcon better than Han.
The silver lining is that Rogue One does a great job of displaying a strong, independent female lead that is well grounded in backstory and ability. I'm just sad we'll have multiple films of Space Mary Sue before the series goes in a new direction.
(I suppose they try to find some convoluted way to retcon out her Mary Sueness, but it's going to be tough to explain how she got Jedi training given she thought Luke Skywalker was a myth.)
BronsonLee
Member
I am rarely wrong when it comes to matters of cashola!
Xisiqomelir
Member
That's the definition of a Mary Sue. Rey is not depicted as perfect or idealised, she doesn't do anything unrealistic in the confines of Star Wars lore, and she's clearly not an author avatar. So unless we're dealing with your sandy, salty, self-definition of "it was okay for Anakin and Luke but she's a girl so no" Mary Sue, that term really doesn't apply here
First, there is no singular definition of Mary Sue. But even within your definition, everything I explained above does fit the definition of Mary Sue.
Particularly, she did things unrealistic in the confines of Star Wars lore. But I understand that, given TFA might be your first entry into the series, this may not be immediately obvious. But yeah, flying ships with that precision without any in-universe experience except training sims, or using force levitation without any sort of guidance are unrealistic within the confines of the Star Wars universe.
Also, no where did I argue that Luke was not a Mary Stu. He was. He was just less of one -- at least they built in that he had several flaws (impatience key among them) and he required some training. Indeed when practicing with a lightsaber, we see he was terrible at it. (And he didn't learn how to manipulate minds instantly.)
Sounds like you really want to peg me into a certain hole that you feel fits, but seems you might still be reeling from surgery, which I don't want to aggravate. :-/ good luck with your recovery. I'm off to see Rogue One again.
nekkid
It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
dat bad investment by Disney.
"It's completely reasonable" to land the perfect shot on a target that even ace pilots like Wedge Antilles deem too small, that even a perfectly locked on, target computer guided shot from an ace pilot like Red 1 doesn't properly land, all from within a spacecraft you have never ever piloted before.
"Oh, also" out-dogfights imperial fighter pilots, when all your experience in dogfights comes from shooting down vermin from the cockpit of your little desert cessna.
Both Luke and Rey are great pilots because they're force sensitive. Rey is a great mechanic because she's been a scavenger her entire life. She knows more about the Falcon's current modifications than Han because Han and Chewie weren't in posession of the Falcon for quite a while, while Rey clearly had access to it (maybe Plutt hired her to fix components that were broken, from time to time)
Besides, Han Solo and Chewbacca were never great engineers with regards to the Falcon. It took them ages to figure out why the hyperdrive wasn't working (they had to have the people at Bespin 'fix' it) Han had to routinely instruct Chewbacca about where to put what (Hoth hangar) - and he even resorted to just fist-punching the cockpit instruments when they were malfunctioning.
The issue isn't that Rey is super capable at everything, but that people have way too high of an opinion about the people they compare her to. Han is a shit mechanic, so is Chewie, Kylo is a weak as fuck Sith - he's overconfident and undertrained.
also, her pilot training as well as her mechanical abilities are explained in the "Before the Awakening" book. - She's been using a flight simulator like crazy and she fixed a crashed spacecraft all by herself in secret.
Rey wasn't all that great with a lightsaber, initially she just jabbed and jabbed, to no avail, and then she had a moment of letting the force guide her actions, which closely resembled to Luke's one-in-a-million torpedo shot.
Also, Luke used Force-pull in the Wampa cave without having ever had any Force training beyond the target droid thing on the way to Alderaan.
And Rey comes with plenty of issues - did you miss the scene when Maz Kanata wanted her to answer the Force's call? When Han Solo offered her a job?
She's afraid of serious commitment, has serious abandonment issues.
Rogue One makes me feel better about Trevorrow on Episode 9.
Y'all trash TFA. Goddamn shame.
I wonder who will they hire to reshoot half of Episode 9!
broncobuster
Banned
In truth it's why I'm skeptical about Rogue One impressions. Obviously it happens with a ton of media but there's a peculiar whiplash in talk of Star Wars 7 from then to now. Maybe it's how crazy Disney went with marketing and merchandising last year and the cool down from it.
maquiladora
Member
fixed
Blackthorn
"hello?" "this is vagina"
I think a lot of people forget the Episose IV: A New Hope title was applied to the first Star Wars retroactively, and how simple and self contained the original film really is. Its success was a surprise.
Also, there should be a "Rey is a Mary Sue OT" so that people interested in continuing that played out argument or just discovered it via a YouTube hot take can indulge themselves in isolation.
CassidyIzABeast
Member
VIII delivering will just open your eyes to what we "haters" have been seeing the whole time. I look forward to your awakening brother Frozen.
Gareth Edwards
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1161509
The OP is quality, and there is some good discussion, but despite this my long-term plan is to fire that thread into the sun. I just wish the entire inane argument could go with it.
You mean redeemed from After Earth. Most people liked Eli - After Earth was a script Gary wrote, and then Will Smith showed up with his kid and said, "Let's change this story so it's about the next Smith and how great he and his dad are, and how spaceships are made of curtains and cushions!" Which anyone even GLANCING at that project could have told you, but we spent Gigs of ascii blaming Gary and then attacking him when he got defensive.
Redemption is a pretty empty concept in that context, IMO.
That said, PLENTY of gaf-ers also understood all that and watched helplessly as Gary got thrown under a bus of our own construction.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
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