Support NeoGAF

[Excelion]

great article from the angry folks at RPGCodex: http://rpgcodex.com/content.php?id=122

But apparently BioWare has gotten tired of catering to the difficult PC market, what with demands for interesting plots, NPCs that aren't a pain in the ass and hey, maybe something without elves in it for a change? No, it's much easier to pander to console kiddies whose idea of RPG gameplay is collecting multicoloured ocarinas or watching twenty hours of FMV cutscenes. BioWare's forthcoming projects are mostly to be released on the Xbox 360 and include a whole trilogy of sci-fi "RPGs" called Mass Effect (colloquially known as "gravity" to those of us with a clue), which might be interesting if they weren't more FPS than RPG, according to press releases.

Still, it's hard to deny that to a certain extent, Troika brought it upon themselves. If only they'd seen the same wisdom as other developers like BioWare and Obsidian and turned away from this silly PC RPG market, they might still be around today, making godawful Zelda clones for PlayStation 3 and wondering what the hell happened. Instead, they stuck to this goofy idea of making solid RPGs for PC and went bankrupt.

Dialogue screens have been guarded like a fabled treasure by Bethesda PR, probably for a good reason - the unofficial Russian preview showed screens featuring awful writing in big letters for either visually impaired or beginner readers. It looks like Bethesda decided to bet everything on visual aspects and familiar voices, hoping that that's more than enough in the new age of gaming. 2006 will tell.

Wow. Way to go, CD Projekt. In all the history of RPG development, we've never heard of anyone focusing on story, combat, non-linearity and character development! We especially like how redefining RPGs means imposing a predefined PC with his own extensive backstory on players. For reinventing the wheel and coming up with a square, we award CD Projekt our Hype of the Year Award--and they never even used "epic" or "revolutionary" once.

Take a look at what's coming in RPGs. Set aside the fact that everything that's coming looks pretty crappy (that was a given, really). Notice how almost all the games that are getting made these days are action RPGs. This year, there were a lot of action RPGs released, and some of them were pretty good, but that's not the point. Why do we have to settle for action RPGs? Why isn't anyone making an old fashioned RPG that isn't just a reapplication of the loot and monster smashing formula Blizzard perfected with their Diablo series?

That's about all that happened in 2005 in RPGs that's worth caring about. As you may have noticed, 2005 really, really sucked for the RPG fan. The good news is that 2006 is shaping up to suck just as much. Oblivion, among other stinkers, will likely be released in the coming months, and we can at least expect the BioWare hype machine to hit fourth gear by the end of the year. The trend of the industry (that trend being right into the toilet, if you haven't been following) will likely continue and probably accelerate. The RPG genre is in the unique position of not wondering what Next Big Thing is waiting around the corner to wow everyone, but rather to contemplate what the Next Huge Letdown will be. It's almost enough to make you read a book instead of waiting for the damn computer to provide entertainment. Happy new year anyways, and may your life not suck as much as modern RPGs.

 

[Archie]

Sounds like a bunch of jaded people who would rather bitch about games instead of playing them.

Spoiler

They probably post here too

 

[Red Blaster]

Why do PC gamers feel the need to condescend console gamers? Small dicks?

 

[D2M15]

Why do PC gamers feel the need to condescend console gamers? Small dicks?

Fear of change. Something the Codex exemplifies to the point of self-parody these days.

 

[CompositeMolar]

PC fanboys are the best.

 

[Excelion]

yeah, the ~200 regular posters from NMA could probably slaughter Blizzard/Squaresoft/Nintendo's fanboys army. Quality over Quantity.

 

[belgurdo]

Why do they blame console owners for the recent stagnancy in PC RPGs? I don't recall MMOs and "all RPGs must be a variant of D&D, creativity is decadent" starting with the Playstation or Xbox

 

[D2M15]

yeah, the ~200 regular posters from NMA could probably slaughter Blizzard/Squaresoft/Nintendo's fanboys army.

Only in a turn-based fight viewed from an isometric perspective.

 

[Borys]

:lol

Sadly (and I mean it), this will be true for us PC gamers.

Here's to a better FALLOUT 3, MrSmileyFaceDude!

 

[qirex]

I love the attitude that companies should be making these incredibly expensive PC games in an environment where a hit title sells 1/10 the copies of any console RPG or MMO game. It's like, "You owe us because some of us bought some games we liked 6 years ago and we pirated the rest because they weren't worth paying for anyway. Just because you RPG developers want jobs is far less important than pleasing a bunch of wieners who would complain about everything no matter what you released."

The whole SA/NMA thing soured me to people like this forever.

 

[SteveMeister]

Oblivion's a great game. I don't think anyone -- long term fans or first-timers -- will be disappointed.

 

[RevenantKioku]

Why do they blame console owners for the recent stagnancy in PC RPGs? I don't recall MMOs and "all RPGs must be a variant of D&D, creativity is decadent" starting with the Playstation or Xbox

Because they're warped to think bloated crap like Fallout is the best thing since sliced honey ham?

 

[Chairman Yang]

Fanboyism aside, they're actually right with most of their points. Western-style (formerly PC-style) RPGs HAVE sucked ass for the last while, because developers try to appeal to the "mass market" and dumb down their games as a result--just look at the downward progression from Baldur's Gate 2, to KOTOR, to Jade Empire.

They're completely off the mark about Troika, though. Troika made potentially superb, revolutionary RPGs that also happened to be overly ambitious, horrendously buggy and unpolished messes. Frankly, the developer deserved to crash and burn despite the obvious talent of their developers--their producers completely ignored the realities of a development cycle.

 

[RevenantKioku]

They're completely off the mark about Troika, though. Troika made potentially superb, revolutionary RPGs that also happened to be overly ambitious, horrendously buggy and unpolished messes. Frankly, the developer deserved to crash and burn despite the obvious talent of their developers--their producers completely ignored the realities of a development cycle.

This is so very true. Bloodlines runs like absolute ass on my system, which meets or beats the minimum requirements, even though not by much. But WoW runs nearly flawlessly. And the biggest problem with the game was that it always gave enough freedom to let you do the game's intentions, but when you tried to escape that freedom a bit, it just slapped you in the face. It really tried to be immersive but just jarred you out of it really quickly.

 

[D2M15]

Western-style (formerly PC-style) RPGs HAVE sucked ass for the last while, because developers try to appeal to the "mass market" and dumb down their games as a result...

I don't think it's that simple an issue: the genre's caught in limbo between a hardcore fanbase that absolutely will not accept change, and the challenge of appealing to a wider market that's still wary of the way these games used to be.

 

[Gantz]

Oblivion's a great game. I don't think anyone -- long term fans or first-timers -- will be disappointed.

It looks like yet another generic formulaic rpg. The only reason people are interested are for the graphics.

 

[madara]

Ah, Fires of Heaven syndrome, its always sad to see this disease. Theres probably not enough prozac out there to help them get out of that negative sespool either. Scary thing is they darn near sound suicidal.

 

[Excelion]

I love the attitude that companies should be making these incredibly expensive PC games in an environment where a hit title sells 1/10 the copies of any console RPG or MMO game. It's like, "You owe us because some of us bought some games we liked 6 years ago and we pirated the rest because they weren't worth paying for anyway. Just because you RPG developers want jobs is far less important than pleasing a bunch of wieners who would complain about everything no matter what you released."

for your information, Black Isle Studio has always been profitable (Fallout, Planescape Torment, Icewind Dale) - in fact, BIS was the only profitable division of Interplay. Baldur's Gate 1 sold more than Baldur's Gate 2 (first step into trying to please the mass market). 90% of PST dialogs were written by 2 developers.

 

[RevenantKioku]

for your information, Black Isle Studio has always been profitable (Fallout, Planescape Torment, Icewind Dale) - in fact, BIS was the only profitable division of Interplay. Baldur's Gate 1 sold more than Baldur's Gate 2 (first step into trying to please the mass market). 90% of PST dialogs were written by 2 developers.

And outside of that? Yeah.
And 100% of PST's engine was made by a retarded monkey.

 

[Chairman Yang]

I don't think it's that simple an issue: the genre's caught in limbo between a hardcore fanbase that absolutely will not accept change, and the challenge of appealing to a wider market that's still wary of the way these games used to be.

I think it IS that simple, unfortunately. Sure, there will always be a few hardcore holdouts who will hate any advances in the RPG genre (NMA), but I think the vast majority of PC RPG fans will enthusiastically support new RPGs that really capture the best parts of old, Bioware/Black Isle style RPGs regardless of how different they initially seem.

RPGs, even turn-based traditional ones, do have mass appeal (hell, look at the FF series). The problem is that developers either fail to execute properly (Troika) because the genre is very difficult to do well, or that they basically give up and just aim for the mass market with shallow experiences that they think are more "accessible".

This second approach seems to appeal to lots of devs, but it just doesn't work--after all, why would a non-RPG gamer go for a half-assed actiony RPG hybrid like Jade Empire with "too much talking" (I've heard this complaint a lot) when they could go for a pure action game? And why would a hardcore RPG fan go for it either, when it strips away much of what they like about the genre, when they could go for Japanese-style console RPGs instead (which have been gradually improving in the last few years, in terms of both story and gameplay)?

To me, there's few sadder situations in the game industry when developers try to appeal to a wider market and instead end up appealing to no one. Unfortunately, it's happened far too often with RPGs.

 

[RevenantKioku]

It looks like yet another generic formulaic rpg. The only reason people are interested are for the graphics.

Doesn't mean it won't be fun. These people just whine and want the "good ol' times" where they were able to discover new things in RPGs, without realize that it wasn't because they were really new or unique things, but because they were new and unique to that individual gamer.

 

[Solo]

It looks like yet another generic formulaic rpg. The only reason people are interested are for the graphics.

I hope not, because the latest screens show the graphics not looking so hot.

 

[Borys]

It looks like yet another generic formulaic rpg. The only reason people are interested are for the graphics.

Sarcasm?

People are interested because:

- it's TES. TES was always good.
- first RPG on 360. Even if it would score 2/10 people would buy it.
- Radiant AI - sounds very impressive and ambitious. Will it top Ultima 7/ Gothic in that regard?
- graphics look hot.

 

[syllogism]

Well this was refreshing

edit: not that I completely agree with them

 

[Fallout-NL]

great article from the angry folks at RPGCodex: http://rpgcodex.com/content.php?id=122

Ah, so very true. Never forget:

I don't think it's that simple an issue: the genre's caught in limbo between a hardcore fanbase that absolutely will not accept change, and the challenge of appealing to a wider market that's still wary of the way these games used to be.

What? There's nothing wrong with change. You've got to agree with me that Fallout: BOS on the consoles wasnt exactly an improvement over the original. So thusfar the changes havent been for the better.

 

[D2M15]

To me, there's few sadder situations in the game industry when developers try to appeal to a wider market and instead end up appealing to no one. Unfortunately, it's happened far too often with RPGs.

I think a sadder situation is when a genre becomes irrelevant by wilfully ignoring the possibilities of wider appeal. I'm not denying that a lot of recent titles have been overproduced and overdiluted in an attempt to please all the people all the time - I'm just arguing that it's a symptom, not the problem.

A lot of people within the industry think that the RPG could easily be the most popular genre again with the right breakthrough titles: it's just a question of finding those breakthrough titles. Or finding funding for them, given that it's genre non grata with publishers at the moment.

You've got to agree with me that Fallout: BOS on the consoles wasnt exactly an improvement over the original.

Sure, it was a lousy game. But it was supposed to be an action game side-story, not an improvement on, or continuation of, the original.

 

[Fallout-NL]

Sure, it was a lousy game. But it was supposed to be an action game side-story, not an improvement on, or continuation of, the original.

It was pretty obvious it wasnt a Fallout sequel, but thats the point isnt it?

 

[ram]

People are interested because:

- it's TES. TES was always good.

no, no, no! TES games were bug monsters, especially the first ones. and they were far, far away from beeing good.

 

[pj]

- Radiant AI - sounds very impressive and ambitious. Will it top Ultima 7/ Gothic in that regard?

If it doesn't top gothic I'll eat my hat

There's absolutely nothing impressive about gothic's ai.

It's definately better than what's in morrowind or most rpgs, but that's just because there's basically NO AI in morrowind or most rpgs..

Fable's npc AI takes a huge dump on gothic's, although it may not seem that way because of the disgusting british accents

 

[Willy Wanka]

It looks like yet another generic formulaic rpg. The only reason people are interested are for the graphics.

Bullshit. I would elaborate on that but fuck it. It's clear you have no interest or knowledge about the game or the rest of the Elder Scrolls series.

 

[SKOPE]

And I thought adventure game fans were whiny.

 

[Chairman Yang]

A lot of people within the industry think that the RPG could easily be the most popular genre again with the right breakthrough titles: it's just a question of finding those breakthrough titles. Or finding funding for them, given that it's genre non grata with publishers at the moment.

I definitely agree. One good way might be to slip the good elements of RPGs (dialogue and interaction, involved stories, "moral choice" gameplay, a sense of character ownership through customizability, etc.) into otherwise normal games. Hell, San Andreas basically did this--by any reasonable definition it IS an RPG.

It's actually kind of interesting seeing the industry cycle regarding RPGs. The genre becomes stagnant through cookie-cutter games or fresh games executed poorly, then something comes along that is both new-feeling AND properly done, and the genre undergoes a critical and commercial renaissance. Baldur's Gate did this last; I wonder what game will do it next.

 

[uncdeez]

Oblivion's a great game. I don't think anyone -- long term fans or first-timers -- will be disappointed.

I guess you've never seen the Codex forums or, to a lesser extent, the No Mutants Allowed forums.

 

[SteveMeister]

I guess you've never seen the Codex forums or, to a lesser extent, the No Mutants Allowed forums.

I post at the Codex, NMA and Duck & Cover all the time.

 

[D2M15]

I definitely agree. One good way might be to slip the good elements of RPGs (dialogue and interaction, involved stories, "moral choice" gameplay, a sense of character ownership through customizability, etc.) into otherwise normal games. Hell, San Andreas basically did this--by any reasonable definition it IS an RPG.

Absolutely. I've always wished that instead of Planescape: Torment, Chris Avellone was allowed to make his RPG set in high school in the 1980s - RPGers would have got the storytelling and character development that they wanted, and the mass market would have got a game that they could actually be interested in.

I'm still wishing for it, actually. Knights Of The Californian Republic!

 

[fennec fox]

Does anyone remember Computer Gaming World in the mid 1990s? The way they slammed anything that was even remotely close to the "action" genre as being too kiddie? The way they didn't cover Doom at all until about a year after it came out, by which time PC Gamer was already making them eat their dust? The way they had a multi-page section every month devoted to wargames long after it had ceased being a viable genre?

I don't know, I look at some of the comments posted and/or quoted on this thread and I can't help but think about that.

 

[ToxicAdam]

I'm still wishing for it, actually. Knights Of The Californian Republic!

You hit on something I have been yearning for, for years. That is RPG mechanics introduced to a variety of different scenerios.

There is no reason why we shouldn't have RPG's that are set in the Wild West (don't give me Wild Arms as an example). Or more set in space, or something similar to Police Quest with RPG mechanics maybe a Detective RPG (ala Manhunter). All you need to do is look through history or around today's world (Baseball RPG? Fishing RPG, Poker RPG) and see ideas that would make for interesting NEW games.

It's almost inexcusable the lack of cyberpunk or post-apocalyptic RPGs we have had when compared to fantasy ones.


I don't look to Japan to make these games .. they seem happy churning out the same old crap, repackaged with better graphics and worse voice acting. That's why you see the sense of frustration for RPG fans. There is no real savior for them, since the PC market has moved onto MMORPGS or "console-ized" thier SP RPG's.

 

[D2M15]

There is no reason why we shouldn't have RPG's that are set in the Wild West (don't give me Wild Arms as an example)

The reason is that they can't find publisher backing - one of Feargus Urquhart's dream projects is a horror-western RPG, IIRC. But the industry concept of a 'mass market' game seems to be taking existing fantasy or sci-fi concepts and stripping them of complexity, rather than building them in an approachable setting from the ground up.

I don't look to Japan to make these games .. they seem happy churning out the same old crap, repackaged with better graphics and worse voice acting.

That's another needless polarisation, though (on top of PC vs. console and hardcore vs. casual - no wonder RPG development is a grind with that many prejudices to wade through, as well as being the most difficult genre to develop in the first place) - there are progressive Japanese titles among the identikit crowd-pleasers too, and there are areas JRPGs have touched on that Western games still haven't.