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[U-R]

Every developer thrown out of steam is effectively thrown out of the pc gaming market. Steam should not have or want that power, and we should not wish for any storefront to have such power. I have more of an issue with the fact that fully adult games are not on steam, because that reinforces the concept of digital redlining.

This is really a non-controversy.

 

[Durante]

Nope. The search system doesn't actually search tags, just titles and descriptions. The tag system is entirely separate.

You know what? I just did some superficial testing and it seems you can actually exclude tags, there's just no interface for it.

Searching for "blue":
http://store.steampowered.com/search/?term=blue
Adding the "indie" tag to the search:
http://store.steampowered.com/search/?term=blue&tags=492
Manipulating the URL:
http://store.steampowered.com/search/?term=blue&tags=-492

Seems to result in a list without things tagged "indie". Something like enhanced Steam could add an interface that adds something like a "-" button to click for each tag and constructs this URL.

 

[JaseC]

You know what? I just did some superficial testing and it seems you can actually exclude tags, there's just no interface for it.

Searching for "blue":
http://store.steampowered.com/search/?term=blue
Adding the "indie" tag to the search:
http://store.steampowered.com/search/?term=blue&tags=492
Manipulating the URL:
http://store.steampowered.com/search/?term=blue&tags=-492

Seems to result in a list without things tagged "indie". Something like enhanced Steam could add an interface that adds something like a "-" button to click for each tag and constructs this URL.

Ah, interesting.

 

[caffeware]

It's a task that could be completed by a team of ten. Game is submitted to the store. Human plays game, finds it doesn't work. Human emails developer and says, "This game doesn't work, fix and resubmit." Done.

Its not that easy. There are so many possible setups and libraries, the game may run for Steam employee and not for customer or vice versa.

 

[JaseC]

Its not that easy. There are so many possible setups and libraries, the game may play for steam employee and not for customer or vice versa.

Valve actually does test games as part of the release approval process. The "issue" is that there's no patch certification process, so it's up to the developers to ensure that later builds also function correctly.

 

[Pixieking]

Valve actually does test games as part of the release approval process. The "issue" is that there's no patch certification process, so it's up to the developers to ensure that later builds also function correctly.

The fact that you know this and yet John Walker doesn't astounds me. And the fact that he could've potentially found this out, but didn't, just makes me despair. :/

 

[Durante]

The fact that you know this and yet John Walker doesn't astounds me. And the fact that he could've potentially found this out, but didn't, just makes me despair. :/

To be fair, JaseC probably knows more about Steam than 90% of the Valve employees.

 

[Pixieking]

To be fair, JaseC probably knows more about Steam than 90% of the Valve employees.

Yeahhhh, this is true.

 

[2+2=5]

I sort of agree, but 20-30 games a days seems a big number to deal with, i have more faith in user reviews than the author of the article but i agree that positive/negative label should be applied after a minimum amount of reviews.
Also Steam really needs to be redesigned to make things simpler for people.

 

[michaelius]

Maybe rather customers should stop blaming their problems on storefront ?

If you bough crappy game - then fault is ultimately Yours since you are supposed to do reasearch before spending money. It's not up to Valve to decide what is high quality but to people - Valve should only provide tools to help with that,

The only case where storefront intervention is justified is if the game doesn't work due to technical reasons,

 

[Sad Affleck]

Nobody applies a lot of the complaints Steam receives regularly on GAF to... anything else? Like, nobody freaks out that Spotify has all the music, including a lot of really terrible nonsense. That's actually seen as a good thing. You type in what you want and find it. You use the discovery tools they have to find similar stuff, which isn't the same as a really solid lead from a friend or whatever but it does serve up more decent content than you'll have time to engage with.

Like, I'm sorry Bloody Boobs has enough ironic social media buzz around it that it shows up in your popular new releases list. Stop acting like your front page is littered with Unity asset flips, because it isn't and you know it.

Exactly.

Recently, I asked someone "Do you look at the 'all new books' tab at Amazon?" (if there was such a thing) in the context of this discussion.
Thinking about that afterwards actually made me even more confident in my position, and also drives home just how much of an aberration - across all media - the gaming marketplace on "curated" platforms is.

Not that I'm aware of. Something like -tag in searches would be useful.

Those are... really good points actually. I hadn't thought of it like that.

 

[Jawmuncher]

I with jim. I'm tired of steam acting like their some small group considering all the money they're making. They got the cash to do a lot more than they do.

 

[Ascheroth]

You know what? I just did some superficial testing and it seems you can actually exclude tags, there's just no interface for it.

Searching for "blue":
http://store.steampowered.com/search/?term=blue
Adding the "indie" tag to the search:
http://store.steampowered.com/search/?term=blue&tags=492
Manipulating the URL:
http://store.steampowered.com/search/?term=blue&tags=-492

Seems to result in a list without things tagged "indie". Something like enhanced Steam could add an interface that adds something like a "-" button to click for each tag and constructs this URL.

Since it's relevant here as well:

Actually, Enhanced Steam already has this.

 

[Kthulhu]

Those are... really good points actually. I hadn't thought of it like that.

No it isn't. This is software.

Valve should at least see if they can get the game to launch before selling it.

Everyone cheered at Arkham Knight getting pulled from steam. So why are people getting pissed at the idea that games that run even worse should be on steam?

 

[JaseC]

No it isn't. This is software.

Valve should at least see if they can get the game to launch before selling it.

Everyone cheered at Arkham Knight getting pulled from steam. So why are people getting pissed at the idea that games that run even worse should be on steam?

Scroll up nine posts.

 

[Durante]

No it isn't. This is software.

What makes game software intrinsically different from a book, movie or piece of music?

Valve should at least see if they can get the game to launch before selling it.

They do. But they don't want to impose any barriers on developers patching their games (which is highly appreciated by many) and as such, a developer can inadvertently kill their games (on at least some setups) with a patch. It's impossible to prevent that while also not imposing barriers for patching.

Everyone cheered at Arkham Knight getting pulled from steam.

1) I didn't cheer. At the time it was pulled, it was already a good experience if you had a high-end system, so pulling it took the option of playing it away from people who do.
2) That was the publisher's decision, not Valve's.

 

[Maffis]

I don't think people would be happy if a book you bought came with glued together pages.

Buying a game and then finding out it doesn't run is basically the same. Comparing books and music with software isn't even close.

 

[Durante]

I don't think people would be happy if a book you bought came with glued together pages.

Buying a game and then finding out it doesn't run is basically the same. Comparing books and music with software isn't even close.

The book/music/film comparison is about the average quality of the "all new releases" tab, and how completely unusual across all media it is to expect that to be high.

About stuff not running at all, as explained in this thread this is tested for, but there is a hard limitation on what you can do about patches breaking things without introducing developer inconvenience in the patching process.

And I actually own at least two books with incorrectly cut pages

 

[Pixieking]

I don't think people would be happy if a book you bought came with glued together pages.

Buying a game and then finding out it doesn't run is basically the same. Comparing books and music with software isn't even close.

Can we stamp out this notion that games literally don't run, please?

Anyways... A lot of self-published ebooks have appalling proofreading. Spelling mistakes, poor grammar, poor type-facing. Things actually a few games suffer from. You have the ability to ask for a refund, or live with it.

This. Is. Life.

 

[nopenopenope]

.

 

[Spirited]

I with jim. I'm tired of steam acting like their some small group considering all the money they're making. They got the cash to do a lot more than they do.

Jaw this doesn't make much sense at all. Even if they had cash to throw at being free QA to every developer who releases their game on steam it would be an extreme waste of resources for the extremly small payout that a small amount of games that almost no one buys don't end up on the store.

Also should they go and re-do the QA every time a dev decides to update their game just because that they might have change something that breaks the games for some?

I just don't see the reason for why they would do that and if this complaint isn't about that games should be working fully then it's even worse, why should valve go back to curating the store front and letting games in depending on if the people that approve games subjectively think it's good and has a market on steam. Valve already has used games such as the run-away success from last year, stardew valley, to describe a game that would never have made it onto steam with the old curation model and when you look at other platforms that use curation like valve did before many games that HAS proven themselves to have a market on pc like cook, serve, delicious isn't let in because of a persons subjective decision that it doesn't belong there.

 

[Gaogaogao]

Exactly.

Unconditional refunds solve every problem you can expect a retailer to solve. Everything else should be up to the customer. If you prefer a platform that restricts your purchasing choices then there are plenty of other options available to you.

the problem is we don't have unconditional refunds, pretty much everywhere you go refunds come with conditions. no one actually wants to give you a refund.

 

[Durante]

What shops do people go to where any old random can rock up and sell their shit?

Amazon. It's my favourite shop for physical things in fact.

We aren't talking about places that deal with shelf space issues here.

the problem is we don't have unconditional refunds, pretty much everywhere you go refunds come with conditions.

On Steam, for much more than the time period required to determine the types of severe issues that are always used as examples in these discussions, you do have unconditional refunds.

 

[Pixieking]

What shops do people go to where any old random can rock up and sell their shit? You don't see a stranger sat in Tesco selling 5p potatoes he definitely grew properly, or a bloke in Toys R Us flogging jarg Action Man dolls.

And equally I don't see PC games in the nearest Tesco. So curation of stock both helps and hurts.

Yours is also a flawed argument, in the sense that in physical stores physical space is at a premium, so curation of stock is not a choice, it's a requirement.

The only plus-side to curation of stock on Steam would be that it would be easier to find the games that are on there. However, this would also mean you would miss certain things (whether knowingly or unknowingly) - like a lack of PC games in the nearest Tesco.

 

[Prime crotch]

I'd like to see Valve reward the community efforts in some way, maybe actual in-steam currency or something of the sorts. Other than that, I think Discovery might help matters moreso than greenlight did.

 

[Kthulhu]

What makes game software intrinsically different from a book, movie or piece of music?

They do. But they don't want to impose any barriers on developers patching their games (which is highly appreciated by many) and as such, a developer can inadvertently kill their games (on at least some setups) with a patch. It's impossible to prevent that while also not imposing barriers for patching.


1) I didn't cheer. At the time it was pulled, it was already a good experience if you had a high-end system, so pulling it took the option of playing it away from people who do.
2) That was the publisher's decision, not Valve's.

Testing to see if a program will launch would take minutes to troubleshoot. Esspecially if the game didn't have an executible. Analog media isn't comparable. I'm not asking them to inspect discs.

I'm not asking them to screen patches.

Well congrats. You were in the minority. Most people booted it up and had it routinely crash. A game that runs even worse than that should be pulled, but most devs don't get the backlash that WB got except when people like Jim Sterling make a stink about it. Valve needs to step in.

Scroll up nine posts.

By any chance do you have any details on how thoroughly they test?

 

[SeeNoWeevil]

+1 for Amazon selling 'any old piece of cack' - because sometimes, that little piece of cack is exactly what I need.


It really isn't hard to avoid cack on Steam. The only real shitty product I've had was Arkham Knight, and that came free with my GPU! (As pointed out, it wasn't terrible on good hardware either). For the people agreeing with the article, how often are you ending up with broken games? Genuinely curious.

I do think Steam needs a re-design though. It's looking incredibly dated in 2017.

 

[DarthMasta]

I think what Steam is missing is the ability for curators to get a percent of sales. No 100% foolproof idea how that could be achieved technically, when does a curator "deserve" that cut, but give curators a piece of the pie, let Steam have a "RPS shop", "Sterling shop", "Totalbiscuit shop", etc, and allow people to buy games "from" the people they trust, Valve doesn't want to curate, let people choose who does it for them...

 

[JaseC]

By any chance do you have any details on how thoroughly they test?

"We'll be checking to making sure your game starts up properly, doesn't include harmful files, and uses Steam Wallet for any in-game transactions."

 

[Kthulhu]

I'd like to see Valve reward the community efforts in some way, maybe actual in-steam currency or something of the sorts. Other than that, I think Discovery might help matters moreso than greenlight did.

I'd like a feature that allows me to mark a game as one that I own, but not on Steam. That way valve's algorithm knows I like it and games like it for future searches and recommendations.

"We'll be checking to making sure your game starts up properly, doesn't include harmful files, and uses Steam Wallet for any in-game transactions."

Well at least they're taking a step in the right direction.

Good in them.

 

[yurinka]

Seems to be working.

Steam Discovery 2.0 analysis: Valve shares latest metrics

If we add to this graphs the ones showing the number of released games every year and the average revenue / number of owned copies per new game every year we'll see that the discovery and revenue for new games is way worse than before Discovery 2.0 or Greenlight.

I think what Steam is missing is the ability for curators to get a percent of sales. No 100% foolproof idea how that could be achieved technically, when does a curator "deserve" that cut, but give curators a piece of the pie, let Steam have a "RPS shop", "Sterling shop", "Totalbiscuit shop", etc, and allow people to buy games "from" the people they trust, Valve doesn't want to curate, let people choose who does it for them...

Some curators request a certain number of keys to the devs to cover them. I assume it's to resell them.

 

[Spirited]

T
Well congrats. You were in the minority. Most people booted it up and had it routinely crash. A game that runs even worse than that should be pulled, but most devs don't get the backlash that WB got except when people like Jim Sterling make a stink about it. Valve needs to step in.

The thing is that people like Jim Sterling makes a stink out of almost anything to pander to their audience who really likes blowing up small issues to astronomical heights and generally like being smug and cynic about the state of the games industry.

 

[ArtHands]

I don't think people would be happy if a book you bought came with glued together pages.

Buying a game and then finding out it doesn't run is basically the same. Comparing books and music with software isn't even close.

Maybe the people should blame the companies who published those books instead of the store.

I mean the store isn't the one who glued those pages.

 

[JaseC]

Well at least they're taking a step in the right direction.

Good in them.

Pre-release testing has always been part of the approval process. The future tense is just due to context.

 

[SeeNoWeevil]

The thing is that people like Jim Sterling makes a stink out of almost anything to pander to their audience who really likes blowing up small issues to astronomical heights and generally like being smug and cynic about the state of the games industry.

I'd definitely agree with that.

Maybe the people should blame the companies who published those books instead of the store.

I mean the store isn't the one who glued those pages.

Well, the law (at least in the UK) would hold the retailer responsible.

 

[nded]

What shops do people go to where any old random can rock up and sell their shit? You don't see a stranger sat in Tesco selling 5p potatoes he definitely grew properly, or a bloke in Toys R Us flogging jarg Action Man dolls.

Stores sell and recall faulty, dangerous, tainted and/or low quality products all the time, and you don't often see smaller outfits distributing and promoting their own products directly because self-publishing/distribution is far more difficult in the physical marketplace than it is in the digital one.

 

[Kthulhu]

The thing is that people like Jim Sterling makes a stink out of almost anything to pander to their audience who really likes blowing up small issues to astronomical heights and generally like being smug and cynic about the state of the games industry.

When he plays early access games he typically just calls a spade a spade. Yes it's funny to do, but often he leaves it at that unless a dev responds to it like Digital Homicide did.

People bitching about something and making mountains out of molehills is a surprising great way to get things to change. Just look at MS's 180 on the Xbox One's DRM.

 

[Pixieking]

If we add to this graphs the ones showing the number of released games every year and the average revenue / number of owned copies per new game every year we'll see that the discovery and revenue for new games is way worse than before Discovery 2.0 or Greenlight.

That's not how this works. I mean, it is, but also... No.

You're combining an increase in product with an average of revenue and sales.

So, unless all 3 of those rise at the same rate, they're obviously not going to sync. And they literally can't all rise together, due to revenue being affected by price of product sold, and product sold being different dependent upon price, and a general increase in product regardless of if people have the money/feel like buying a game on a given day. Add to this different release dates for different games, marketing, "big releases" fighting it out over certain periods, etc...

Finally, you're using all of that to say that the Discovery 2.0 and Greenlight updates failed for new games. Except their success is measured not only on number sold, but on how many developers got their games in-front of potential buyer's eyes, or onto Steam. Which are two very different things anyways.

I feel like I'm not really explaining why this is so wrong, but my wife is at work (she's the mathematician, I'm the... not mathematician. Like, literally, she's a maths teacher).

 

[Durante]

I'm not asking them to screen patches.

But you are. A patch can easily make a game which used to work not work, especially on some systems.

So by demanding a situation where it's impossible to buy a game that doesn't work on your system you are in fact asking for every patch to be screened.
Since that's not viable while keeping up all the advantages that make the PC platform what it is, Valve introduced the refund system.

 

[Muzicfreq]

Was thinking the same. whatever they have works and they don't have a lot of incentive to improve.

Well technically they should but the PC community is so far into steam that many of them turn a blind eye to the issues and still praise the hell out of it.

Imho I would rather use origin than steam these days. Least they have customer support and forums that are alot more level headed than the shitshow that is steam discussion.

That's just me though.

 

[Chairmanchuck]

Instead of writing an article about that situation, maybe they should have written an article about bigger issues like bugs in the Steamclient that has been there since years and hasnt been fixed, systems that they started working on, then somehow stopped developing (Steam Music) or just updating every few months, no real invisible mode, that was promised years ago etc.

Updates of steampages, that havent been updated yet. I mean the new design has TWO pages that have been updated with the new color palette. The shop and account details. Everything else is still using the old design...

I mean there is a reason people are using EnhancedSteam and not just because of price comparisons and such. And Valve also know about this, because afaik sometimes after a good EnhancedSteam update, somehow the "missing features" are suddenly in the main client.

 

[Frozenprince]

What the hell version of steam are all of your "swimming in garbage" using all the time?

Curation isn't steams biggest issue, it's the almost non existent customer support system that barely functions on its best days. That's what needs the overhaul. Even just paying some call center in Mumbai to handle issues would go a huge way.

 

[Chairmanchuck]

What the hell version of steam are all of your "swimming in garbage" using all the time?

I literally know people that use Steam only when sales are running. Also if you idle for a lot of cards, you usually get a lot of stupid recommendations because you played Shovelwaregame A.

I dont really care though. I think Steam has far bigger problems concerning the whole client, half-hearted ideas they start developing, then forgetting about them etc.

 

[Pixieking]

What the hell version of steam are all of your "swimming in garbage" using all the time?

It's the new "Confirmation Bias" version of Steam. Gotta opt-in to the Beta, yo.

I literally know people that use Steam only when sales are running.

That... doesn't mean much.

I mean, my wife goes through phases of playing games, and never looks at Steam herself. She relies on me to find stuff she'll enjoy, because she just doesn't want to spend looking at an online store. It's not that she thinks it's full of crap, she just doesn't like shopping online anywhere.

 

[patapuf]

When he plays early access games he typically just calls a spade a spade. Yes it's funny to do, but often he leaves it at that unless a dev responds to it like Digital Homicide did.

People bitching about something and making mountains out of molehills is a surprising great way to get things to change. Just look at MS's 180 on the Xbox One's DRM.

Xbox one DRM was not a molehill.

Complaining that there are bad games on steam is.

Steam is not the digital equivalent of gamestop and it will never be.

 

[Sad Affleck]

Well technically they should but the PC community is so far into steam that many of them turn a blind eye to the issues and still praise the hell out of it.

Do you consider yourself a member of that community? It's a community that places a high value on openness and freedom of choice. When the choice is between having a more open store that contains some bad games and a more closed store that leaves some good games out then it makes sense that this particular community would choose the first option. It has nothing to do with turning a blind eye to Steam's issues and everything to do with preserving the open nature of the PC platform.

 

[Evolution of Metal]

But you are. A patch can easily make a game which used to work not work, especially on some systems.

So by demanding a situation where it's impossible to buy a game that doesn't work on your system you are in fact asking for every patch to be screened.
Since that's not viable while keeping up all the advantages that make the PC platform what it is, Valve introduced the refund system.

What if the patch breaks the game which I already have more than 2 hours of gametime? For example, game gets an update and it is no longer stable or even as good as it was before on your system.

Steam refunds are automated, but they are highly conditional compared to what you get with electronics in EU. Two years defect free for every item. You get two hours grace period on Steam active for two weeks.

It is not "exactly" like Tesco or Amazon when it comes to warranties and returns.

 

[patapuf]

What if the patch breaks the game which I already have more than 2 hours of gametime? For example, game gets an update and it is no longer stable or even as good as it was before on your system.

Steam refunds are automated, but they are highly conditional compared to what you get with electronics in EU. Two years defect free for every item. You get two hours grace period on Steam active for two weeks.

It is not "exactly" like Tesco or Amazon when it comes to warranties and returns.

Games are software and you don't have a two year waranty on software in EU. You don't have for most items you buy.

 

[hardcastlemccormick]

I have no issues dealing with crap games on Steam. Honestly it is barely an issue that registers in my mind. There really isn't that much outright junk on Steam and it's really obvious when it happens to cross your way.

I think that the more open the publishing tools, the better. I don't like it when Apple's App Stores impose limitations and screening. It doesn't save me from money grabs and shitty fart apps. It just removes useful software I'd have to jailbreak to use.

 

[JaseC]

Updates of steampages, that havent been updated yet. I mean the new design has TWO pages that have been updated with the new color palette. The shop and account details. Everything else is still using the old design...

All of the pages the site links to use the same colour palette, with the exception of the Steamworks page, and arguably the About page could do with some touch-ups as despite being updated, the abundance of grey doesn't really mesh well with the blue.

Steam refunds are automated, but they are highly conditional compared to what you get with electronics in EU. Two years defect free for every item. You get two hours grace period on Steam active for two weeks.

They're only automated if your request falls within the scope of both guidelines. If one of them has been exceeded, then it's manually approved or declined.