As much as I liked the Bane scene and hell even the Joker interrogation scene,the Dent standoff is easily my favorite "villain showdown" in the entire trilogy.
Someone missed the point of Alfred's exposition earlier in the film.
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RTTP: The Dark Knight Rises (Yes, It's Our Weekly TDKR Thread)
- Thread starter foxtrot3d
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lol goddamnit can we not base our arguments off aggregated scores?
I mean, I also really like TDKR but c'mon
I wouldn't call it bad, but wildly inconsistent. The worst I'd say is that the script was lazily written and has some moments that really are insultingly stupid
neogaffer1
Banned
Above Batman '89 (suck a dick Burton Batman lovers), below TDK and BB. A decent Batman movie, just not a very good one.
Well here on GAf it seems that almost every movie OT thread title these days has the rotten/metacritic score attached to it. Not that I take any special consideration of them myself but some people still see to have meaning to them.
old manatee
Banned
I thought the point of Alfred's exposition was to get some sweet ad monies from Fernet-Branca.
For me, what made it the weakest film in the trilogy was also how it was also verging on Marvel territory and also out of place with the other two films. It's plot and tone didn't really match well with what a lot of people loved in BB and especially TDK.
Also, for a film that wanted to go big, it really did itself a disservice by a not so spectacular climax which is further half-assed because apparently they ended up cutting 10 minutes worth of footage from that sequence too (you can spot a good chunk of the deleted material in promo trailers). Like I imagined a climax similar to Saving Private Ryan in which dedicate a good deal of runtime to it but instead we got something very nerfed.
Also, for a film that wanted to go big, it really did itself a disservice by a not so spectacular climax which is further half-assed because apparently they ended up cutting 10 minutes worth of footage from that sequence too (you can spot a good chunk of the deleted material in promo trailers). Like I imagined a climax similar to Saving Private Ryan in which dedicate a good deal of runtime to it but instead we got something very nerfed.
obin_gam
Member
Ironically the first thing Bruce says about Batman in BB is that he doesnt want to do this forever.
This trilogy was never about Batman, it was about Bruce.
Kind of on topic but I just want to throw in that Begins has the best ending in the trilogy easily. I'd even say its the best ending to a super hero movie, period.
Because outside of TDKR I don't think there's a single Batman story where Bruce ever does retire the character. Every story is either old Bruce donning the cape and cowl again (Dark Knight Returns) or doing what he can to keep Batman going (Batman Beyond). So Bruce straight up walking away from Batman at the end of TDKR feels way out of place.
Because outside of TDKR I don't think there's a single Batman story where Bruce ever does retire the character. Every story is either old Bruce donning the cape and cowl again (Dark Knight Returns) or doing what he can to keep Batman going (Batman Beyond). So Bruce straight up walking away from Batman at the end of TDKR feels way out of place.
FullMetalx117
Member
So what you're saying is that you didn't like it because Bruce didn't end up the way you wanted him to end up and Nolan had a different end for the carachter?
How are you so certain a fictional carachter "would never retire Batman"?
I liked it. I thought it was very good actually and I thought Bane was very well handled here. Gets a little hard to follow (just like Dark Knight) in a few spots. The only problems I really have with it are:
Anne Hathaway as Catwoman. I see what they were going for and there's moments where she works (like in that scene where the SWAT team arrives and she pretends to be a frightened hostage) but there's no chemistry between her and Bale and the character doesn't have any room to grow.
Plot holes. Quite a few plot holes of which I'm not going to name. I however, can suspend my disbelief when other elements are strong enough.
Talia Al'gul felt kinda' rushed. I thought that character could have had more room to grow.
I find it funny how there's zero mention that Batman broke his "no kill" code by killing Two Face at the end of DK and directly killing Talia at the end of DKR. He shoots her truck head on with the Bat Wing and she directly dies because of him. Gets zero mention. Plus he gives no fucks about Catwoman shooting Bane.
Great film. Great end to the trilogy. Come at me nitpickers. Pick those nits and post two hour YT vlogs pointing out every possible plot hole. I'm not gonna' watch 'em.
Anne Hathaway as Catwoman. I see what they were going for and there's moments where she works (like in that scene where the SWAT team arrives and she pretends to be a frightened hostage) but there's no chemistry between her and Bale and the character doesn't have any room to grow.
Plot holes. Quite a few plot holes of which I'm not going to name. I however, can suspend my disbelief when other elements are strong enough.
Talia Al'gul felt kinda' rushed. I thought that character could have had more room to grow.
I find it funny how there's zero mention that Batman broke his "no kill" code by killing Two Face at the end of DK and directly killing Talia at the end of DKR. He shoots her truck head on with the Bat Wing and she directly dies because of him. Gets zero mention. Plus he gives no fucks about Catwoman shooting Bane.
Great film. Great end to the trilogy. Come at me nitpickers. Pick those nits and post two hour YT vlogs pointing out every possible plot hole. I'm not gonna' watch 'em.
Because I consider him so.
Well sure, but when you argue that a film is great, it's better to detail what made that film great than point to a number anyways. It's just an unsubstantial rebuttal.
Inferno313
Banned
Kind of on topic but I just want to throw in that Begins has the best ending in the trilogy easily. I'd even say its the best ending to a super hero movie, period.
Because outside of TDKR I don't think there's a single Batman story where Bruce ever does retire the character. Every story is either old Bruce donning the cape and cowl again (Dark Knight Returns) or doing what he can to keep Batman going (Batman Beyond). So Bruce straight up walking away from Batman at the end of TDKR feels way out of place.
Bruce doesn't "retire the character" in this anymore than he does in Batman Beyond. He finds a successor to carry on the legacy.
The end of this movie is literally the premise of Batman Beyond.
No it really isn't. In Beyond he's still directly involved in Terry's adventures, trains him, mentors him, does basically all of the maintenance on the Batsuit and Batmobile, and does a good chunk of the detective work. He only quits being Batman because his body physically can't handle it anymore. Bruce at the end of TDKR straight up walks away from being Batman and doesn't even bother to train his successor. JGL's character would probably get murdered his first week on the job.
With respect, people tend to keep forgetting that The Dark Knight Trilogy, even with all the great things it's done to represent the Batman franchise, is really just a comic adaptation in the lightest way possible. It's story and creative decisions are still very much of the Nolans and Goyer. Whether people like it or not, this is their Bruce Wayne we're talking about. As such, it's better to critique him as that singular character of the trilogy.
Strangelove77
Member
"I looked at you and I just knew you were Batman, dude. All that pain and shit. I getchu, brah."
I totally get & understand that. I just think if you're going to be a Batman movie you need to make sure you follow the character and understand his motivations and such (something I thought Nolan aced in Begins and then slowly strayed away from after that). I'm also admittedly a bit nitpicky about the Nolan Batman sequels
I don't think ASM is nearly as bad as the two other films you listed.
TDKR is the weakest in the trilogy, but a godsend compared to the 3rd film in most superhero trilogies.
Ehhh... You don't really know what Bruce did after he saw Alfred at the restaurant. For all we know he probably gave instructions on how he, Alfred, and Selina would train the new Batman.
I really enjoyed this movie. I thought a lot of the ideas were very ambitious and it had many great scenes. I admit there were a lot of pretty dumb ideas and plot holes. Nolan really didn't care about explaining the details, he just went point by point and who cares what's in the middle. I liked the idea of Gotham being taken over by Bane and his crew, but the whole Occupy thing was dated when the movie came out, much more so now. I would have also liked if they didn't focus on the whole League of Shadows thing. That aspect of the trilogy is so cheesy and a bit too out there in this more grounded world.
Man, you put my exact sentiments into words. I think your breakdown actually makes me like the film more. It's too big, too messy, and too ambitious for its own good, but it's a film full of great ideas and interesting concepts. It's a bit of a slog, and some of the thematic poetry gets lost in the film's weird pacing and unwieldy scope, but it's hard for me to say Nolan totally dropped the ball.
I know for a fact that TDKR was a challenge to edit. There's a lot of stuff on the cutting room floor, and many of the scenes in the film exist in their most condensed version. As a result, it's a film that warrants the pacing of Batman Begins (which took place over years), but is cut like The Dark Knight (which took place over a week or two). If there's one film that truly could benefit from being expanded, it's this. I get that it's already too long, but the film's pacing and plot issues would be much improved, methinks. Nolan would never do it, but damn if it wouldn't be an interesting thing to take a look at.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
This movie really betrayed a very specific percentage of its fanbase, didn't it.
Like it's Batfans' "Godfather III" or something.
(Neither The Dark Knight Rises nor The Godfather Part III are bad movies. They're disappointing in their own ways, but they're not BAD.)
Hell, I can imagine a version of GAF existing in 1992, with everybody consistently posting the same 3 gifs out of context and folding their arms in self-satisfaction at a job well memed.
Like it's Batfans' "Godfather III" or something.
(Neither The Dark Knight Rises nor The Godfather Part III are bad movies. They're disappointing in their own ways, but they're not BAD.)
Hell, I can imagine a version of GAF existing in 1992, with everybody consistently posting the same 3 gifs out of context and folding their arms in self-satisfaction at a job well memed.
The Cretan
Member
Search on google the comic book influences of each movie of the trilogy. Every movie borrowed a lot from the comics.
On Bruce's retirement. There isn't anything in the movie that says Blake won't be trained nor he will be Batman the first day he went into the cave. Also, in The Man Who Has Everything, Batman's deepest desire is to have a family, not being Batman.
Check this out. It is a great find.
Ok, thats cool.Check this out. It is a great find.
DrGonzo615
Banned
Search on google the comic book influences of each movie of the trilogy. Every movie borrowed a lot from the comics.
On Bruce's retirement. There isn't anything in the movie that says Blake won't be trained nor he will be Batman the first day he went into the cave. Also, in The Man Who Has Everything, Batman's deepest desire is to have a family, not being Batman.
Check this out. It is a great find.
That would be a great nod.....if their relationship was developed over the course of the 3 films and not some weird thrown together thing in the last movie that wasnt believable at all. Its definitely an afterthought attempt to tie the movies in together than an actual thought out plan from the beginning.
Skiptastic
Member
Absolutely right.
I'm completely aware they've always gotten influence from the comics, but that doesn't change the fact they're still tell their own story either way.
The one other major gripe I had was with Bane's plan. In Batman Begins, Ras explains the evolution in the League's approach to collapsing cities. What begins with fire and plague rats slowly develops into corrupt commerce and dirty politics. In Batman Begins, the League manages to infiltrate every level of Gotham's infrastructure.
In TDKR, with all previous attempts proving ineffective, it seems like Bane's new plan is to radicalize Gotham's people, manipulating them into tearing the city down themselves. This is a really fascinating idea. Poisoning Gotham's citizens with the power of "belief" rather than just fear gas.
... but then you just find out the real plan is to nuke them.
One other missed opportunity: The identity of the trigger man! They could've done something really cool with that plot device. Once Batman returns to Gotham, Bane could've told the city that Bruce Wayne, the most elite of elites, was the man with the trigger. He'd have turned the whole city against its savior. I get that "my own ideas" =/= fair criticism, but I'd have loved moments like that. Instead, the third act feels rushed and sloppy as it fights to contain its half-dozen plot threads. Don't get me wrong -- it's still a pretty robust blockbuster... but it's one of a few films that I constantly find myself going back and forth with.
In TDKR, with all previous attempts proving ineffective, it seems like Bane's new plan is to radicalize Gotham's people, manipulating them into tearing the city down themselves. This is a really fascinating idea. Poisoning Gotham's citizens with the power of "belief" rather than just fear gas.
... but then you just find out the real plan is to nuke them.
One other missed opportunity: The identity of the trigger man! They could've done something really cool with that plot device. Once Batman returns to Gotham, Bane could've told the city that Bruce Wayne, the most elite of elites, was the man with the trigger. He'd have turned the whole city against its savior. I get that "my own ideas" =/= fair criticism, but I'd have loved moments like that. Instead, the third act feels rushed and sloppy as it fights to contain its half-dozen plot threads. Don't get me wrong -- it's still a pretty robust blockbuster... but it's one of a few films that I constantly find myself going back and forth with.
CosmicGroinPull
Member
Search on google the comic book influences of each movie of the trilogy. Every movie borrowed a lot from the comics.
On Bruce's retirement. There isn't anything in the movie that says Blake won't be trained nor he will be Batman the first day he went into the cave. Also, in The Man Who Has Everything, Batman's deepest desire is to have a family, not being Batman.
Check this out. It is a great find.
Posting cringeworthy tumblr gifs. Not sure if serious.
Discotheque
Banned
god damn....
god damn. why didn't they let her keep her hair that way. so much superior to the straight-hair look they went with.
The Cretan
Member
I don't find them cringeworthy, but that's just my opinion and I'm serious.
Nah, I feel it would've gone much better had they went for short hair Selena.
Closest we got to that was Anne in Interstellar.
Discotheque
Banned
no way brah. those gifs are giving me best catwoman (pfeiffer) flashbacks. the disheveled hair looks so hot.
hathaway with short hair looked kind of goofy.
hathaway with short hair looked kind of goofy.
Jeffolation
Banned
When the music starts to kick in during the second Batman and Bane fight, man oh man.
Just to follow up on this, Bane was exiled from the League. After Ra's' death he and Talia became the heads of a bastardized version of the group. While their methods and goals are similar to Ra's, they're not identical. Ra's was motivated by centuries of sociopolitical control and subversion, whereas Talia was motivated by revenge and Bane was an extremist, even by Ra's' standards.
The plan was always to destroy Gotham and punish Bruce for betraying the league and essentially killing Ra's. In order to carry out that plan, Bane needed to secure the reactor and allow it to destabilize for 5-6 months before it was powerful enough to wipe out the city. Thus, he needed to keep Gotham under control during that time. The best way to do that was to incite a class war, giving the lower classes false hope and essentially distracting everyone with a faux revolution. That's not to say that Bane doesn't believe in the stated goals or purpose of the revolution, but it was secondary to destroying Gotham.
I get that. The "real" plan just wasn't as interesting to me as Bane's "ruse". I think it would've been more thematically engaging if the bomb was really just to keep the Government out long enough for Bane to manipulate the citizens of Gotham into ripping the city apart French Revolution style. Again, I know that's not a fair criticism of the movie. That's just something I come back to every time I think about the film. I see Ras Al Ghul and the Joker as twisted individuals with philosophies that I'm almost ashamed to admit are compelling. Like... they each have their points. Bane does too, until you find out his real plan is just to blow everything up with Talia. Then he just becomes a nutcase. That's not as interesting to me.
I wish she stayed at that exact same weight class.
True Savior
Member
He doesn't proclaim him as Batman. He sees Bruce Wayne and recognize him as a facade. The same behavior he himself has to endure every day. After that he believes that the rich playboy who plays a character can be Batman. More brains than most in Gotham.
Also what you seemed to dislike is that TDKRises is a natural continuation of the story in which Bruce seems unable to escape from his persona. Something Rachel told him twice , even if he promised to let it go.
This is the Bruce that is putting himself to death instead of trying to live a life he never had. He's a pathetic figure in the beginning of the movie. Only in the final moments he allows himself to escape.
I think she looks great both ways but this seems much more erotic.
Earth two Batman retires.
roflwaffles
Member
errrmergerdddd
I've never seen this before, is this test footage?
Each Nolan Batman movie closes out in a very great way, I'd say the best out of all superhero movies. Only DOFP has an ending that comes close to Nolan's IMO, and that's more because it was a love letter to the fans.
Agreed, although TDKR is definitely flawed, I was still engaged the whole time. Much of AoU felt very bland and disconnected.
Batman's no kill policy is kind of a joke - he kills in every movie.
Begins - refuses to kill the murderer as his initiation into the League, instead kills everyone in the temple instead aside from Ras. Ends up "sort of" killing Ras by telling him to piss off on the train.
TDK - Dent
TDKR - Talia
Batman's also supposed to detest guns too in every media but he basically gives no shits at a certain point. He doesn't let Catwoman use a gun on the rooftop fight but he has rockets and shit on all of his vehicles. This isn't on Nolan, Batman basically has artillery on all of his vehicles in every medium.
Brainiac 8
Member
The problem with this thinking is that the Bruce Wayne of DKR is different in every way to the Bruce Wayne of the first two movies. The characterization just doesn't match up.
old manatee
Banned
But there both blue though.
SoldnerKei
Member
yup, pretty much the whole reason why I can rewatch this movie
I have never seen that footage thou, damn!
obin_gam
Member
Character development, how does it work
ZackieChan
Member
Weird. All your pros are like the worst things about the movie.
Just watched it the other day. It is truly terrible. Such a sad disappointment.
Just watched it the other day. It is truly terrible. Such a sad disappointment.
This is just a ridiculous complaint. Your mad that Nolan didn't make his incarnation of Bruce Wayne/Batman the same as everybody else. You do realize that the reason Bruce never overcomes Batman in the comics is because they need to sell you more comics? Nolan takes Batman and turns him into a real character who has an arc, at the beginning of TDKR he is very much your typical Batman. He wants to be back in the suit, the fact that the suit has been taken from him has turned him into a recluse, when he finally has the smallest opportunity to get back out there he takes it. He wants to die as Batman as he's completely given up any hope of overcoming his tragedy.
The ENTIRE arc in the movie is him learning to finally overcome his tragedy and move beyond it, it's the entire reason for Alfred in this movie. In the end he is able to move past it by killing Bruce Wayne. Wayne Manor is sold off and all his remaining assess ts are given away, Bruce Wayne is left behind along with all of the tragedy that being a Wayne entailed. In his place a new man was able to take his place who could finally enjoy his life.
Right now you're upset that Batman didn't remain a static character for the course of three films.
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