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[cyberheater]

Damn it if those Perfect Dark screens makes me want to play it all over again.

Back to the topic. 2gig memory plus 1gig VRAM would be good enough for me.
I wonder if it's going to backward compatible.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

Well let me clarify, it succeeded in the short term but its model wasnt enough to sustain software sales and long term viability. Nintendo even admits this with its abnonment of the wii. 3rd parties abandoned it in favor of more powerful consoles. Weak graphics and a gimmick are a nice plan for short term gains and long term failure if we are looking at the Wii. And before you say Wii is still selling, yes, but if WiiU is gimped in comparison to the other 2 do you really think it will somehow miraculosly attract more third parties? Or do you think it will attract less and less with time and slowly become obsolete much quicker?

Now if all three colluded and made new consoles that barely jump graphically. XBOX would probably do fine. However I think the buzz around the new consoles would be weak and I think it would not see the same sort of early console sales as this generation.

"Weak graphics" had very little to do with the tapering off of the Wii, aside from the inability for third parties to leverage their games on the system without downporting. The difficulty in downporting led to lack of consistent support, and the lack of consistent games led to the dwindling of sales. Even considering that, the Wii is still on pace to outsell the Playstation 2.

As for the Wii U, there is no arbitrary limit that Nintendo must achieve to ensure that third parties develop for them. What Nintendo must do is make sure that the Wii U is in the ballpark of the other two consoles when they release to allow the transitioning of their games.

As for the buzz, I do acquiesce that buzz for the consoles among the tech geeks would surely drop if it were considered underpowered. Problem with this is that group has never been responsible for the long term success of any console. The ironic thing is that most of the people in this thread that are complaining for "more and better" don't even understand how what they're complaining for would benefit them.

 

[TheExplodingHead]

Damn it if those Perfect Dark screens makes me want to play it all over again.

Back to the topic. 2gig memory plus 1gig VRAM would be good enough for me.
I wonder if it's going to backward compatible.

I see no reason why it wouldn't. My main thing is whether or not (and how well) my XBLA games carry over and if I'll need to fork out more money on a "transfer device" to get them there.

 

[Router]

As long as there is a "killer app" on day 1.

 

[gofreak]

Did everyone forget here that the X360 currently runs 512MB of RAM?

2GB is an upgrade.

I don't think anyone forgot that.

2GB just seems like it would be a relatively small jump given how long there'll be between new systems.

Historical perspective:

PS1->PS2 = ~10x increase in total memory over ~6 years
PS2->PS3 = ~14x increase in total memory over ~6 years
Xbox -> Xbox 360 = ~8x increase in total memory over ~4 years

Maybe it's naive to expect historical growth curves to persist, but history has probably groomed console gamers to expect more than a 4x increase in memory over a gap of 7 years. I think those wondering why people might express disappointment in that amount of RAM total are the ones forgetting the past.

Assuming the rumour is accurate, though, I think the wording of it suggests maybe more than that 2GB - more hanging off the GPU perhaps. So I wouldn't be over-eager about 'accepting' the 2GB figure.

 

[guek]

Ummmmm, why is that?

because PC ram is not the same as console ram

hear that guys???

PC ram is not the same as console ram

 

[Zzoram]

If they do 2GB system RAM and 1GB VRAM then that's adequate. If it's 2GB combined RAM, that's pathetic.

Alternatively, they might go 2GB system RAM and 512MB VRAM. That would likely lead to ~900p games since 512MB VRAM isn't quite enough for quality texture 1080p games.

 

[clav]

The original xbox had 64mb, 8 times less than the 360. The time between the releases was what, 5 years? Now at 7 years (minimum), you're okay with 4 times?

2GB is not confirmed, but I'm fine with that number.

It is an upgrade.

 

[gatti-man]

The original xbox had 64mb, 8 times less than the 360. The time between the releases was what, 5 years? Now at 7 years (minimum), you're okay with 4 times?

They say unknown VRAM. VRAM is the most important piece we are missing and would bring you closer to your 8x metric.

 

[AllIsOneIsNone]

because PC ram is not the same as console ram

hear that guys???

PC ram is not the same as console ram

We know this, but if pc ram growth is correlative to console ram growth (which I believe it has been), then we should be getting more than 2gb of console ram.

They say unknown VRAM. VRAM is the most important piece we are missing and would bring you closer to your 8x metric.

Yea, I guess this is what we're overlooking.

 

[Jadedx]

8gb of ram or bust.

 

[Deleted member 22576]

Yeah, the wording of this report seems to specifically state that the GPU will have it's own ram. I mean, the PS3 is split evenly so at this point with literally nothing to go on but speculation and rumor it doesn't seem that crazy to expect there to be 2gig of vram as well.

Or maybe it is crazy, I don't really know how these things work. The article just seems pretty clear about there being dedicated Vram in addition to the 2gigs.

 

[Jonm1010]

As a final note Deacon before I head out. What has been the more suistanable model of hardware evolution. A focus on gimmicks only and little to no graphical upgrades or a focus on graphical upgrades and spec increases with a light focus on gimmicks?

On the side of success in the gimmick corner stands the wii alone and that was only a partial success considering its failure to sustain 3rd party developers which are need in the long term to be successful. Kinct is minorly successful but its not pushing high volume in terms of game attachment and it was also the rare exception of a current console add on that succeeded. On the side of failures in this department are the 3DS, Move(largely), numerous Sega add ons and older attempts like the Panasonic remote control systems, the Virtual Boy and others.

On the other side you have consoles that have relied on significant hardware upgrades seeing the most overall success. The 360, the N64, the PS2, the PS1, Sega Genesis and Super Nintendo. In terms of sustaining software developers and hardware sales to me it seems the sensible route is large hardware upgrades with some minor gimmicks attached. To be more specific I think hardware upgrades with minor gimmicks based around a tolerable price and only sells for a loss very early on in the cycle. Ideally you also want to be the first out of the gate or very close to it.


If I were a rational actor entering the console market thats how I would proceed. And if your honest with yourself that lloks to be the route both Sony and Microsoft are going. For Sony just look at the Vita. Significant hardware upgrades with minor gimmicks.

 

[Orayn]

Why is 2GB not enough?

Two reasons.

1) This is supposed to stay relevant for 6-10 years. Portable tech are getting significant upgrades every few years. Those things will be able to stream your game to your Big TV.

2) For many generations, it was all about the Graphics. I still think they can get better...but it didnt make a difference this generation. The big success early on was the Wii, with a new way to play, that made games more accessible. Nintendo threw it all away with lousy game lineups and insufficient 3rd party tools. I believe that the next big thing in games, is not graphics and not motion sensing, but AI. Like motion control, it can make games more accessible. But unlike motion control, advanced ai can appeal to hardcore crowd too. And game changing AI, will needs a lot of memory for the Models unless its all farmed out to the cloud. The kinds of things I am talking about need at least 2GB of memory on their own to offer anything remotely interesting.

I agree with most of your post, but Nintendo's first party lineup on the Wii was phenomenal.

 

[gatti-man]

Yeah, the wording of this report seems to specifically state that the GPU will have it's own ram. I mean, the PS3 is split evenly so at this point with literally nothing to go on but speculation and rumor it doesn't seem that crazy to expect there to be 2gig of vram as well.

Or maybe it is crazy, I don't really know how these things work. The article just seems pretty clear about there being dedicated Vram in addition to the 2gigs.

If it comes with 2gb system ram and 2gb VRAM I would cum in my pants.

 

[FreeMufasa]

I don't think there's a need for games like Mario, Halo, MGS etc. to be launch titles anymore. Hardware will sell itself for the first few months and third party always need the launch window (They can't be overshadowed). Year 2 or 3 like SMG and Halo 3 is for the best.

 

[charsace]

Perfect Dark and Kameo - Hope they show up.

Just for a little perspective here, particularly with Kameo:

SFA on GameCube.

My point? Insisting that these consoles must be behemoths to sell at launch is ludicrous. Launch games have never come close to realizing the potential of a console and they won't start with these next machines.

Both Perfect Dark Zero and Kameo use make extensive use of parallax mapping. I doubt there are more than 35 games that use parallax maps and 2 of them were launch titles for the 360. Kameo also has a nice LOD system and can draw a ton of characters on screen too while holding a good framerate.

 

[AbsoluteZero]

Should be interesting if they go the Twilight Princess route and dual-launch Halo 4.

Problem with doing that is it makes the "new Xbox" a hard sell when you can get its blockbuster game on the old system.

 

[tirant]

Halo 4 is coming to 360, but it's obviously going to work on the Next Xbox as well (why wouldn't there be backwards compatibility?).

Regarding graphics, the jump from the Xbox --> Xbox 360 was massive and it really isn't surprising developer didn't get anywhere near to max potential on Day 1 (I remember playing Dead or Alive...). The next Xbox's graphics will already look great, because the jump won't be as big imo.

Unless next console is PPC, forget about backwards compatibility. Only XBLA titles will be backwards compatible.

 

[guek]

We know this, but if pc ram growth is correlative to console ram growth (which I believe it has been), then we should be getting more than 2gb of console ram.

not...really.

Back in 2005, most PCs had what, 2gb of ram to function well, 4gb at absolute most.

Presently, 4gb DDR3 is adequate for the overwhelming majority of PC users, some run 8gb but that's almost always overkill.

2gb total of modern high speed ram would be a respectable step up, though I am also expecting a little more.

 

[H_Prestige]

Unless next console is PPC, forget about backwards compatibility. Only XBLA titles will be backwards compatible.

If it's not BC, then the majority of software on XBL right now will not run on the new system. That means less revenue for MS and weakening of the service. MS is not that shortsighted.

 

[gatti-man]

Should be interesting if they go the Twilight Princess route and dual-launch Halo 4.

Problem with doing that is it makes the "new Xbox" a hard sell when you can get its blockbuster game on the old system.

Totally disagree. Put on the box For best graphics play on next gen console. Then make all dlc next gen exclusive. It would sell consoles like crazy.

 

[cyberheater]

Well. I keep looking at vids of Skyrim on a PC, 360 and PS3 and apart from the extra graphical tweaks you can do on a PC, the gameplay is the same.
Even Crysis 1 and 2 look very similar and have same content. I really doubt only having 2gig of memory will be a problem if the GPU is good enough.

 

[bgassassin]

MOAR RAAAAM

Xbox3 and PS4 will have their own Sea of Memory.

 

[pr0cs]

Unless next console is PPC, forget about backwards compatibility. Only XBLA titles will be backwards compatible.

This doesn't even make sense. Why would XBLA only be BC, either it IS or it ISN'T.
After the debacle Microsoft had with the OG Xbox and the 360 (Nvidia licensing, BC emulation , etc etc) I expect the next console to be 100% BC with the 360 on all software titles.

 

[CouchMaster]

Did everyone forget here that the X360 currently runs 512MB of RAM?

2GB is an upgrade.

DDR3 =/= GDDR3

 

[clav]

DDR3 =/= GDDR3

Right.

Did you read my other arguments?

If it's not BC, then the majority of software on XBL right now will not run on the new system. That means less revenue for MS and weakening of the service. MS is not that shortsighted.

There was a rumor that floated around saying how Xbox 360 games would run more smooth on the next Xbox.

 

[AllIsOneIsNone]

not...really.

Back in 2005, most PCs had what, 2gb of ram to function well, 4gb at absolute most.

Presently, 4gb DDR3 is adequate for the overwhelming majority of PC users, some run 8gb but that's almost always overkill.

2gb total of modern high speed ram would be a respectable step up, though I am also expecting a little more.

Don't forget ddr2 was much more widespread in 2005 (they didn't even have ddr3 yet, did they?), and I think 1gb was more than acceptable for almost any game until games like crysis started coming out.

 

[RaijinFY]

I expect 4GB at the absolute lowest minimum. Either splitted or unified.
I think it's reasonable to think we will have a decent of flash memory inside the box too.

 

[Mudkips]

2GB of ram for a console will get better performance than your Pc with 2GB.

With all the OS bloat consoles now have, this isn't as true as it used to be.
Besides, 2GB for a next gen console likely to arrive in 12-24 months doesn't exactly come close to the 16GB I already have in my PC.

With RAM prices the way they are right now, there's no excuse for going less than 4GB.

 

[lunchwithyuzo]

Go put Madden on ps2 into a flat screen and look at it. Now go put Madden 06 into a hdtv on 360 and tell me there was no difference. Or better yet PGR or Kameo.

Graphics were and are a large part of the buzz that surrounds a consoles release. People purchases also werent solely on what was released at launch. The promise of much better games in 6 months to a year were just as big of sellers. And that buzz created is what pushes consumers into thinking an item i must have. Wii managed to break the mold and use it gimmick to create buzz but thats not repeatable IMO this coming gen. Kinect is alread out and so is move, so the next iterations arent going to carry the same wow factor and buzz all by themselves. They will need more to do it.

There's a difference, but not something MILES beyond. Better IQ is all really, but both games looked like warmed over ports (which they were). Basically like Gun.

PGR3 and Kameo were nice looking (as was DOA4), but not at all indicative of a generational leap. Especially at the resolution and framerates they used... like I said earlier, it's wasn't until well into 2006 that we started getting 360 games that felt like they couldn't really have been done justice on Xbox 1 (Oblivion, Dead Rising, Gears of War, etc).

 

[gofreak]

Well. I keep looking at vids of Skyrim on a PC, 360 and PS3 and apart from the extra graphical tweaks you can do on a PC, the gameplay is the same.
Even Crysis 1 and 2 look very similar and have same content. I really doubt only having 2gig of memory will be a problem if the GPU is good enough.

The reason most of those games don't offer fundamentally huge upgrades with bigger memory on PC is because they were designed to fit into console memory.

As for Crysis, IIRC its developers actually want more than even 4GB of RAM in next gen systems!

You cannot really look at most multiplat PC games as a gauge of the benefit of more RAM because they're just not designed to really take advantage of more, having to cater to the consoles.

If you are a PC gamer, and want games that stress PC power more - then hope for more RAM in the next systems. That would justify devs to look at what hardware with xGB of RAM can really do for a game.

 

[charsace]

There's a difference, but not something MILES beyond. Better IQ is all really, but both games looked like warmed over ports (which they were). Basically like Gun.

PGR3 and Kameo were nice looking (as was DOA4), but not at all indicative of a generational leap. Especially at the resolution and framerates they used... like I said earlier, it's wasn't until well into 2006 that we started getting 360 games that felt like they couldn't really have been done justice on Xbox 1 (Oblivion, Dead Rising, Gears of War, etc).

There is nothing in the previous generation that comes close to looking as good as PGR3 and Kameo. Nothing.

 

[Plinko]

And your completely crazy if you don't think graphics were the main selling point and people weren't enthralled seeing Madden and Cod and epics demos running on HDTV's. I still remember my friends blown away by just watching Madden for the first time in HD. Their comments weren't I want that for the sweet game, it was I want those cool graphics and crisp image.

There it is! I was waiting for someone to bring this up.

See, the thing is that there is NO "SD to HD" jump in graphics with this new generation of consoles. It's not happening and it won't happen again for a decade, if not longer. The level of graphical quality we're going to see won't even come close to the effect on the eyes of a jump from SD to HD.

 

[Gaborn]

6 core and dual GPU seems waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too optimistic for the nextbox. I'm guessing it's some fan boy rumor and not "real." 6 core isn't even really PC standard yet. the 2 gigs of RAM is more reasonable though.

 

[Zoe]

The original xbox had 64mb, 8 times less than the 360. The time between the releases was what, 5 years? Now at 7 years (minimum), you're okay with 4 times?

You're so preoccupied with whether or not they could that you're not stopping to think if they should.

 

[Ether_Snake]

2GB should be plenty tbh.

Say that again in five years?

 

[Xun]

I won't believe the hexacore CPU until I see pictures and official coverage. The two GB of RAM sounds about right and I lol in the general direction of folks in the thread who think 3GB+ is necessary.

Yep, especially because the Wii U will be packing four GB come launch time.

I'm just imagining a strange and magical future of Nintendo having the most powerful console.

 

[gofreak]

6 core and dual GPU seems waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too optimistic for the nextbox. I'm guessing it's some fan boy rumor and not "real." 6 core isn't even really PC standard yet. the 2 gigs of RAM is more reasonable though.

We're probably not talking about PC-alike 'cores', if this is correct.

Three cores wasn't PC standard in 2005 either...

 

[AllIsOneIsNone]

There it is! I was waiting for someone to bring this up.

See, the thing is that there is NO "SD to HD" jump in graphics with this new generation of consoles. It's not happening and it won't happen again for a decade, if not longer. The level of graphical quality we're going to see won't even come close to the effect on the eyes of a jump from SD to HD.

Ha, wait till 3D is more developed and becomes the norm in gaming. That will be 3x the jump from SD to HD.

 

[sleepykyo]

Say that again in five years?

I thought the Xbox successor is coming out in 2 years.

 

[guek]

With all the OS bloat consoles now have, this isn't as true as it used to be.
Besides, 2GB for a next gen console likely to arrive in 12-24 months doesn't exactly come close to the 16GB I already have in my PC.

With RAM prices the way they are right now, there's no excuse for going less than 4GB.

what in the world do you need 16 gb of ram for. Unless you're doing high end video processing or graphic design, there's pretty much no reason for you to have that much ram.

 

[charsace]

There it is! I was waiting for someone to bring this up.

See, the thing is that there is NO "SD to HD" jump in graphics with this new generation of consoles. It's not happening and it won't happen again for a decade, if not longer. The level of graphical quality we're going to see won't even come close to the effect on the eyes of a jump from SD to HD.

If nextgen does what it should then the jump will be noticeable.

-High poly count models for rounder looking characters.
-Higher res textures.
-better physics that will help improve animation.
-better bump mapping.
-tessellation.
-better lighting.

Then yes the jump will be noticeable. Look at the Unreal Samaritan demo and tell me it doesn't look like a generation leap.

 

[Gaborn]

We're probably not talking about PC-alike 'cores', if this is correct.

Three cores wasn't PC standard in 2005 either...

True. I would believe 4 cores but 6 just seems ridiculous. Maybe I'm wrong. It's a rumor though and until that part is confirmed (and the dual GPUs) I'm skeptical.

 

[DR3AM]

2 gigs should be fine for the first 2-3 years, then developers will start complaining again

 

[Dipswitch]

6 core and dual GPU seems waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too optimistic for the nextbox. I'm guessing it's some fan boy rumor and not "real." 6 core isn't even really PC standard yet. the 2 gigs of RAM is more reasonable though.

Tri core CPU's weren't common when Xbox 360 was launched either (Dual core was the norm). Nor was the CPU frequency. A hex core CPU on the next Xbox is quite plausible.

 

[cyberheater]

The reason most of those games don't offer fundamentally huge upgrades with bigger memory on PC is because they were designed to fit into console memory.

As for Crysis, IIRC its developers actually want more than even 4GB of RAM in next gen systems!

You cannot really look at most multiplat PC games as a gauge of the benefit of more RAM because they're just not designed to really take advantage of more, having to cater to the consoles.

If you are a PC gamer, and want games that stress PC power more - then hope for more RAM in the next systems. That would justify devs to look at what hardware with xGB of RAM can really do for a game.

Minimum spec required for Crysis 1 is 1.5Gig (Vista). The fact that they shoe horned it into a console with a lot less memory and it remained feature intact but also offered up some graphical upgrades says to me that 2Gig of main memory should be enough.

I'm more interested in the GPU. It really should be designed to deliver games that offer stereoscopic 3D gameplay at 1080p at acceptable framerates. The GPU would have to be something special to deliver that.

 

[AllIsOneIsNone]

You're so preoccupied with whether or not they could that you're not stopping to think if they should.

Horrid pop-in on current gen consoles say they should; at least if we want to get objects with better textures, physics, and a higher polygon count.

 

[lunchwithyuzo]

There is nothing in the previous generation that comes close to looking as good as PGR3 and Kameo. Nothing.

I have to disagree. Both were most definitely "Xbox 1.5" games, quite literally in fact.

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

Wow RIP next generation WII-U wins.

Or something. Sounds decent but if next gen lasts 7+ years...uhhh....