When Frankie says NO he usually means NO
Rumor: Xbox 3 = 6-core CPU, 2GB of DDR3 Main RAM, 2 AMD GPUs w/ Unknown VRAM, At CES
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When Frankie says NO he usually means NO
dragonelite
Member
Didn't he said there would be no Halo:CEA atleast some said in this thread.
Karak
Member
Yep he did. Most definantly.
The thing is people need to start being more intelligent about this stuff and admit that people in the business and the business itself will lie to them at times. They have since the very beginning, and nothing is suddenly demanding that they tell the truth when it would negatively impact them. I have always wondered why people think that the devs this gen are more truthful than the gens since the 2600. This shit is par for the course and 100% acceptable if they need to keep secrets.
In this day and age the old "No comment" response is tantamount to outright acknowledging the existence of said product. So a bit of creative fibbing is typically the norm these days.
Not quite sure if I'm fond of that policy, but I'd prefer to be surprised about a product rather than know about it 3 years in advance.
SMT
this show is not Breaking Bad why is it not Breaking Bad? it should be Breaking Bad dammit Breaking Bad
From an innovative standpoint, of course.
I said they attempt to amaze you, it doesn't necessarily pan-out, but you can't blame a company for trying, right?
Did he tip-toe when lying about Halo Anniversary?
BoobPhysics101
Banned
Frankie isn't going to reveal critical information like the existence of an Xbox 3 dev-kit. Sorry man.
Kleegamefan
K. LEE GAIDEN
Nothing is official, afaik
Louis Cyphre
Banned
Of course not. Nobody within Microsoft that wants to stay employed will leak anything about the new Xbox until they are cleared to do so.
at the bare minimum, yes of course
bgassassin
Member
Wait...what?
Personally I'll be shocked if any of the consoles have a split pool of memory. Also DDR3 is currently 4Gbit max (not including the stacked memory I've seen), so it would take 8 chips to reach 4GB and 4 chips to reach 2GB.
specialguy
Banned
Anybody have a link to this? if not I consider it conjecture anyway. Shouldn't be hard to link a forum post.
Freeza Under The Shower
Member
I figure he's under the same NDA as every other employee, so his moral standing in relation to company material is really rather moot.
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Xbox 360 has 522MB of RAM, so no. I said what I meant.
You said they could just use a smaller process. It's what I was going to say before I got to that part of your post.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't you pack GDDR5 chips closer together these days?
I thought that was Samsung's whole pitch of the power reduction when switching to a 256 bit system.
I thought that was Samsung's whole pitch of the power reduction when switching to a 256 bit system.
Source: http://www.samsung.com/global/business/semiconductor/Greenmemory/Products/GDDR5/GDDR5_Overview.htmlSamsung said:The Power to Harness the Most Advanced 3D Graphics
Samsung's GDDR5 is next-generation, JEDEC-standard Graphics Memory for the most advanced 3D applications Faster, Denser Memory for Demanding 3D Graphics Requirements.
Three-dimensional graphics applications require advanced memory with exceptional performance. Samsung's GDDR5 memory delivers an ultra-fast peak bandwidth of up to 28 GB/second, making it the fastest graphics memory in volume production today. Since just 16 Samsung 2 Gb GDDR5 components are needed to achieve a density of 4 GB, OEMs are able to save power, space and cost for their graphics board designs.
Samsung GDDR5 memory is ideal for a broad array of products using high-end graphics - from storage devices, digital televisions, set-top boxes and networking equipment to high-end computers, gaming systems, workstations and graphics cards.
40nm 2Gb GDDR5 Features
Features
- 46nm Process
- x32/x16 I/O
- Max 7 Gbps@1.5V VDD
- Support 1.35V VDD for low power
Benefits
- Up to 8 GB buffer size (x512 bit system case)
- Power reduction comparing 1 Gb
Application
- High Performance Graphics Card
- Next Game Console
- HPC (High Performance Computing)
Pushing the Limits
Samsung GDDR5 is a hyper-synchronous, double data rate DRAM, operating at data clock speeds up to 3.5 GHz and delivering data at speeds up to 7.0 Gb/second. These advanced GDDR5 chips are enabling leading graphics card suppliers to push the limits, providing an immersive experience for gamers and enthusiasts. As PC graphics features continue to expand rapidly - advanced graphics memory makes possible the lifelike images and speed that are helping fuel demand.
- Samsung GDDR5 is the best solution for DirectX 11, 3D gaming and HPC (High Performance Computing) thanks to the highest bandwidth and big density.
- Less system I/O's are needed to satisfy system bandwidth requirements for 3D Gaming compared to GDDR3 or DDR3. It enables users to choose high performance GDDR5 graphic cards for a reasonable price.
A 256 bit system with 4 Gbps GDDR5 can achieve the same system bandwidth of a 512 bit system with 2 Gbps GDDR3.
This advantage of decreasing system I/O can reduce power and BOM cost of Graphics cards.
les papillons sexuels
Banned
i think he's including the 10mb of edram.
bgassassin
Member
Something(s) is missing from that PR. I'm assuming at that time they went from 1Gbit to 2Gbit and on a smaller process?
You didn't read what I typed then. The larger densities aren't currently available. I said they could invest in making them which would be more plausible to achieve 4GB of GDDR5.
You didn't read what I typed then. The larger densities aren't currently available. I said they could invest in making them which would be more plausible to achieve 4GB of GDDR5.
Ah. Right.
The eDRAM isn't really "RAM" in the conventional sense, though, is it?
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
I included all the memory (including the embedded RAM on Flipper and except caches) from the other consoles, so why wouldn't I do the same for 360?
Thunder Monkey
Banned
A lot of the bickering back and forth can be summed up easily. Some of us don't think they are going to go balls to the wall with new unproven tech just to have more... because. And other people do.
I think that Sony is going to come up short by almost 100 million units from this gen to last when competing against a toaster. I think that reality will drastically change not only Sony's console reality but MS as well. It took Microsoft years and billions to get into the comfortable position they are in now. The reality that the Wii, something likely making money the day it released could control the market for four years, vastly under-powered hardware and all had to have changed their outlook on their next generation platform. They've rebounded, but they spent billions and watched a wrist watch in comparison walk away with the market.
The console market has always been a lot different than the PC market. This has blurred in recent years, but I think the bigger point still stands. Hardware power means really little. With all three aiming for a bar higher than this gen, in many ways substantially so, does it really matter if they come up short in some ways?
I don't think so.
I think that Sony is going to come up short by almost 100 million units from this gen to last when competing against a toaster. I think that reality will drastically change not only Sony's console reality but MS as well. It took Microsoft years and billions to get into the comfortable position they are in now. The reality that the Wii, something likely making money the day it released could control the market for four years, vastly under-powered hardware and all had to have changed their outlook on their next generation platform. They've rebounded, but they spent billions and watched a wrist watch in comparison walk away with the market.
The console market has always been a lot different than the PC market. This has blurred in recent years, but I think the bigger point still stands. Hardware power means really little. With all three aiming for a bar higher than this gen, in many ways substantially so, does it really matter if they come up short in some ways?
I don't think so.
It's their main website as opposed to a press release.
I was mainly using it as a reference for the above picture, which is AMD's graphics card with 12 GDDR5 2 Gbit RAM chips right next to each other.
Those are on a separate card that plugs in, but still, we have a circuit board above with 12 GDDR5 chips sautered on it all on one side along with a GPU right next to it, which is a rather reminiscent situation of a full motherboard setup.
Proelite
Member
I assuming each those 4 GB sticks have 4 chips, each chip being 1 GB.
Am I right in assuming that the 360 had eight of these chips originally?
EDIT: The sticks might have 4 chips on either side.
palpabl_purpura
Member
Well, Sony priced themselves out of the market, and have no one to blame but themselves. MS had massive hardware failures and overpriced peripherals and pay-for internet gaming. Not to mention several 1st generation "HD" games were underwhelming visually, and/or not HD at all (Halo 3, Perfect Dark, Socom). The casual observer couldn't see a clear difference. The HD display market was still growing. The GPUs of this generation were undoubtedly underpowered. The mistake was made by over-emphasizing CPU processing power; meanwhile games like SF4 are using the same AI from 1991. There wasn't any evidence to suggest that anything more than a modest increase in CPU power from the previous generation was needed.
They could also be stacking them: http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/Xplore/l...357550.pdf?arnumber=5357550&authDecision=-203
The 360 had eight to my knowledge, but it's worth noting that the chips on the 360 are larger than some GDDR5 chips are today.
The concept of looking back at old technology and trying to judge solely from them doesn't work, which is why I get confused when people do that.
I mean, imagine trying to judge exactly how the PS3 would turn out based on the motherboard layout of the PlayStation 2.
Proelite
Member
Hopefully this stacked memory tech + SI can make it into the next generation consoles, but it's not really necessary since lateral space isn't a premium as it is in phones. If the chips are much smaller nowadays, then they should probably consider in putting 16 of them into their next consoles.
charlequin
Banned
Microsoft have announced their biggest 2012 first-party release -- which is a 360 game. Microsoft are currently enjoying literally their best sales year ever, and the right time to launch a successor is a moderate chunk down the back side of the bellcurve, not right at the top. There are numerous 2012 titles already announced by all the biggest third-parties -- all of which are already explicitly 360/PS3 titles. There have been none of the development leak rumors that precede the reveal of every new system, and not nearly enough development resources allocated to potential next-gen development yet. The big publishers (who get told this stuff long in advance) have been consistently name-dropping 2013 as the time for a new generation to begin for years now. And so on, and so forth.
[Nintex];33992678 said:
Actually, no, not really at all like that.
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
How on Earth is Vita not amazing for a mobile device sold for $250? Hell, even for any price, there's no mobile device that can even match it.
it's not amazing cuz the value prop isn't there for most unfortunately
Boombloxer
Member
2013 appears to be the year, at least for Microsoft.
bgassassin
Member
But that GPU has a 384-bit bus to go with those twelve chips. That's fine for a card retailing at $550 which I believe has a decent markup, but not to the point where I can see it's reasonable for a console. Speaking hypothetically on a per console basis launch BOMs have Xbox 360's GDDR3 costing them roughly a little over $8 per 512Mbit chip (8 chips). If 2Gbit GDDR5 chips cost $6 per chip at launch, then that's $96 just to buy 4GB worth of GDDR5. And obviously that's before anything else is factored in.
Without seeing the backside, I don't have enough info. I tried to look before I responded though. One package said 512Mx64 so that's at least an idea of what's going on.
If anything, the CPU processing power was the most underwhelming thing during this generation (esp in 360's side).
I think the main difference between our viewpoints here is how much we expect the thing to cost.
I'm expect a $400 device in which they're potentially losing up to $50 with a goal of hardware profitability by the end of the following year and profitability the year they launch based on accessories/software.
If we're assuming something notably cheaper, then yes, it becomes rather more unfeasible.
BoobPhysics101
Banned
Are you serious? 360 had a tri-core processor when dual-core was still a big deal in the PC world. It had plenty of processing power considering it's a 6 year old product.
dunno about underwhelming, that's a bit strong but it's not the strongest point in the system doesn't make it underwhelming
bgassassin
Member
Or better yet, the difference in our viewpoints is how much do we expect them to lose on a $399 console. I was also considering accessories that will be included in the box at launch. But if we are looking strictly at hardware, a $50 loss and 4GB of GDDR5 based on current densities, then there is approx. $354 (from my hypothetical $96) left to spend on everything else.
Due to the switch to GPGPU I'm expecting them to spend less resources on the CPU than they normally would.
I mean even these days a lot of companies have poor utilization of the 360's CPU, so there's less to gain there in terms of the development community as a whole.
I also expect them to use the exact same controller to save cost there, and am not expecting Kinect in every unit at first.
I realize it is all speculation and conjecture at this point, but what do you guys think the chances are that the new system will be backwards compatible with 360 games? And, do you think it is possible or likely that it will support Arcade/Indie games more or less than retail discs?
That may be a strange question, but it just seems like it would probably be easier to emulate those smaller, less CPU/GPU intensive games than it would be a full-fledged AAA title. That is of course, assuming that they would have to emulate at all, which I guess would be the case if the switched CPU and/or GPU manufacturers? I don't really know. That was the problem they had with making Xbox games work on 360, right?
That may be a strange question, but it just seems like it would probably be easier to emulate those smaller, less CPU/GPU intensive games than it would be a full-fledged AAA title. That is of course, assuming that they would have to emulate at all, which I guess would be the case if the switched CPU and/or GPU manufacturers? I don't really know. That was the problem they had with making Xbox games work on 360, right?
BoobPhysics101
Banned
Not really. Packing, manufacturing + labor costs, etc cut into what they can stuff into it.
4 GB isn't happening. 2 GB DDR3 with a 1GB GDDR5 GPU is what the Xbox 3 will most likely have. If not that, it'll have 3 GB of split, freely allocate-able shared RAM like the Xbox 360. But Microsoft most likely won't use GDDR5 for that. Anyone crying about 4 GB of RAM (for system usage only, not for GPU) for the Xbox 3 is unrealistic and out of touch with how much RAM next-gen games will actually use.
If AMD is indeed in, and if they are using a 4-6 core CPU (which I am 100% sure they will) and depending on how it easy it is to keep the CPU compatible with 360 titles, I'd say it's very likely, almost guaranteed, that backwards compatibility will be in. 80-90% probability.
specialguy
Banned
At least this debate is making me come around to the fact 4GB may be more likely than 8. Before I had personally figured next gen consoles would have 8GB. I still think/hope 2Gb is too low, though. When you consider these consoles may be asked to last as much as 7 years again.
It just passes the smell test, 4GB sounds "reasonable", 2GB sounds like "that's not very much". Not very much NOW. Imagine how bad it's going to seem as each year passes.
On the plus side, I'm not that techy but I'm pretty sure you can practically equate the RAM in a console to being all VRAM, as opposed to PC where the mass quantities of system RAM probably isn't that useful. A PC with 8GB RAM and a 1GB video card, might be outdone by an Xbox with 2GB of RAM, since it's essentially all VRAM.
You almost have to compare tit more to video cards in that way. a PC with 2GB RAM is paltry but a video card with 2GB RAM is pretty cutting edge right now. Too me a console isn't that much more than a glorified video card with a small CPU tacked on to run things.
It just passes the smell test, 4GB sounds "reasonable", 2GB sounds like "that's not very much". Not very much NOW. Imagine how bad it's going to seem as each year passes.
On the plus side, I'm not that techy but I'm pretty sure you can practically equate the RAM in a console to being all VRAM, as opposed to PC where the mass quantities of system RAM probably isn't that useful. A PC with 8GB RAM and a 1GB video card, might be outdone by an Xbox with 2GB of RAM, since it's essentially all VRAM.
You almost have to compare tit more to video cards in that way. a PC with 2GB RAM is paltry but a video card with 2GB RAM is pretty cutting edge right now. Too me a console isn't that much more than a glorified video card with a small CPU tacked on to run things.
specialguy
Banned
Pretty good, Microsoft seem to prioritize it.
Unlike other here I strongly doubt any AMD involvement in the CPU as well. The easiest by far path to BC is just stick with IBM for the CPU.
It may be boring but as we saw with the WiiU, boring old IBM/AMD is by far the path of least resistance. Exotic architectures or SOC's are unlikely.
It's interesting though, I've heard MS mandates the use of Direct X in programming all games. They basically forbid coding to the metal in that way, which may costs some performance (although I doubt very much, given 360's superiority in many multiplats and lack of public dev complaints). The whole reason they do this is for alleged easier BC down the road.
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