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[shira]

but its already happening. and the real problem is that if you don't know wtf you are doing and get this stuff from the black market you are playing a dangerous game.


remember that high school kid that killed himself after a cycle and ruined the party for everyone? with proper ptc he may not have faced such drastic and confusing emotional swings

Who is going to regulate all this black market shit? When you regulate something you are telling the public it is safe.

PED's may be much, much safer than they were decades ago for human performance but the pysch/mental aspect and the change in hormone levels I would say is not safe. Long term effects are mixed in with CTE for football players so who knows what long term effects PED's have on athletes brains.

Another problem is invariably you are going to have a massive increase in injuries. If you are allowing 400 lb 4.4 speed players in high school you are just asking for asking for concussions, bones breaking, and paralysis.

 

[Wafflecakes]

vince mcmahon is 70

Lets no pretend that you think that is an argument.



"My grandpa lived to 90 and smoked a pack a day. Smoking is good for you!"

 

[Replicant]

She's probably still on a different kind of drugs when asking this question.

 

[sans_pants]

Who is going to regulate all this black market shit? When you regulate something you are telling the public it is safe.

PED's may be much, much safer than they were decades ago for human performance but the pysch/mental aspect and the change in hormone levels I would say is not safe. Long term effects are mixed in with CTE for football players so who knows what long term effects PED's have on athletes brains.

Another problem is invariably you are going to have a massive increase in injuries. If you are allowing 400 lb 4.4 speed players in high school you are just asking for asking for concussions, bones breaking, and paralysis.

My argument has been that they should be administered by trained medical professionals and studied rigorously instead of being left to black market experimentation

and injuries in a game like football are already happening, however there are many banned substances that help with recovery

 

[sans_pants]

Lets no pretend that you think that is an argument.



"My grandpa lived to 90 and smoked a pack a day. Smoking is good for you!"

The drugs havent been well tested. They did a longer term animal study for anabolic steroids that showed adverse effects. But we are talking about a myriad of different drugs here, so unless you have proof that "everyone would be dead by 40" my evidence is just as good as yours

 

[Skellig Gra]

Because those are the rules of the game. You can't move your pieces any way you like just because you want to win in chess. If you don't like it, create another event with different rules.

I mean I get your point but the reality of the situation is that everyone is already cheating at "chess" so you've been playing that other "event" the whole time just under false pretenses.

 

[shira]

My argument has been that they should be administered by trained medical professionals and studied rigorously instead of being left to black market experimentation

and injuries in a game like football are already happening, however there are many banned substances that help with recovery

That's a rough proposition for a 12-17 year old. Juice up or you can't play.

 

[shaowebb]

Welcome to the Gunshow.

 

[sans_pants]

That's a rough proposition for a 12-17 year old. Juice up or you can't play.

I dont think thats how it would play out nor do I think growing kids should be using anything.

For one, they usually dont cut shitty kids in high school, and drugs alone at that stage of developing physique arent going to be the be all end all

 

[Wafflecakes]

The drugs havent been well tested. They did a longer term animal study for anabolic steroids that showed adverse effects. But we are talking about a myriad of different drugs here, so unless you have proof that "everyone would be dead by 40" my evidence is just as good as yours

I never once everyone would be dead by 40. Nice strawman though.

I directly stated in a previous post that SOME countries who care little about human rights would 100% be willing to injure or kill their athletes if that meant victory. Legalizing would open the floodgates.

 

[sans_pants]

I never once everyone would be dead by 40. Nice strawman though.

I directly stated in a previous post that SOME countries who care little about human rights would 100% be willing to injure or kill their athletes if that meant victory. Legalizing would open the floodgates.

which countries are those? arent they already doping?

 

[Psychotext]

The drugs havent been well tested. They did a longer term animal study for anabolic steroids that showed adverse effects. But we are talking about a myriad of different drugs here, so unless you have proof that "everyone would be dead by 40" my evidence is just as good as yours

Back in the wild west days of EPO usage in the pro cycling world, a number of riders died in their sleep because their blood basically became too thick to pump. The answer was not to cut the dosage (this would happen later because of testing), but to set an alarm so that they could wake up and do enough exercise to keep the blood pumping before going back to sleep.

Give people the chance to use whatever drugs they want to improve performance and you'll have deaths left right and centre... and not just grizzled old pros who should know better, but kids trying to get into the higher levels of the sport (having been told that's the only way they'll make it).

 

[pizzaparty]

That's a rough proposition for a 12-17 year old. Juice up or you can't play.

Professional sports are already "Juice up or you can't play."

 

[NervousXtian]

I say let them inject themselves with whatever. Shit's not fair to begin with, these aren't typically games of skill.. they are as much about winning the biological lottery.

We aren't all the same athletically.. so who cares if you dope.. I can dope all I want and I'm not beating Usain Bolt in the 100.

There's ways to dope and be safe about it as well.. we want people to be "clean" at their top condition, but the conditions aren't equal.. being fast, or able to jump high, or run distance.. it's not fair to begin with.

 

[Cheerilee]

If done responsibly and under doctor's care PEDs can be done healthily and can aid in athletic endeavors. I'm all for that.

The reason doping is banned in the first place is because Russian "doctors" literally fucked up their own people, deliberately, without patient consent, in order to win at sports during the Cold War.


If doping is allowed in sports, doping becomes required in sports. An athlete running clean cannot beat a comparable athlete who is doping. If doping is "optional", then the "choice" is immediately taken away from the athletes, and it becomes a scenario where all of the athletes must choose to destroy their own bodies (or ride the edge of that knife) in order to compete.

Risking the health of all athletes equally across-the-board will do nothing to improve the game. It's easier/safer to just say that no PEDs are allowed, and that if you try to sneak that shit past the testers, your samples will be re-tested at a later date and you will get caught.

 

[Purkake4]

What needs to change is allowing countries to self regulate themselves. The entire scandal right now is over the fact Russia was cooking the books so to speak and reporting their athletes as clean while they covered up all the positive tests.

Its the same as the clearly underage Gymnasts from the Bejing games. Girl herself said she was underage and China quickly covered it up and the IOCs excuse was we can only base things off Government provided documents. So as long as China was willing to cheat there was no way to hold accountability.

Agreed.

 

[17 Seconds]

Might as well turn that into Formula 1 where the human element is just a part of the performance or something.
Heck might as well give planes to the people running the 100m because clearly it would help them go faster.

these are ridiculous comparisons.

 

[17 Seconds]

Because it should be about who's the best athlete, not who takes the best drugs.

i don't understand why a lot of people act like this, as if drugs suddenly make you good at everything. that's not how it works.

 

[Cheerilee]

i don't understand why a lot of people act like this, as if drugs suddenly make you good at everything. that's not how it works.

Performance-enhancing drugs couldn't help Maria Sharapova beat Serena Williams, but they likely helped her steal second place away from someone you've never heard of.

If that forgotten person was also on PEDs, then maybe they could've beat Williams.

And if Williams was on PEDs too, then maybe nobody could beat her. End result? The game looks exactly the same to the observer (except if everyone cheats all the time, that cheater Sharapova would be pushed down to her rightful position), but with the difference of everyone risking their health for no good reason, just to "keep up" with everybody else who is willing to throw their lives away.

 

[Steiner84]

they should just be done with this drugs all along and go full robolympics at this point.

that would be awesome.
like for running disciplines you would have rules that the bot has to fit within the lane and maximum weight is 100 kilo. everything else is go.
jumping: maximum weight 100 kilo, maximum height 2m.
and so on.

would watch that.

 

[jdstorm]

Is F1 interesting TV?

Sometimes. But it would be better if they could use NOS for Overtaking

 

[Coriolanus]

Given equal effort and skill between parties, natural testosterone levels will determine the outcome of a physical competition.

Natural testosterone levels are defined mostly by luck. (Unless one is a real big fan of mengele i guess)

If one's desire is that he who is most skilled or put in the most effort should win, why wouldnt one make athletes compete on even hormonal grounds?

That aside, most arguments against liberal use of PEDs are quite similar to the arguments against drug legalization. Mostly FUD that ignores that their doom and gloom is what already happens.

 

[Purkake4]

Given equal effort and skill between parties, natural testosterone levels will determine the outcome of a physical competition.

Natural testosterone levels are defined mostly by luck. (Unless one is a real big fan of mengele i guess)

If one's desire is that he who is most skilled or put in the most effort should win, why wouldnt one make athletes compete on even hormonal grounds?

That aside, most arguments against liberal use of PEDs are quite similar to the arguments against drug legalization. Mostly FUD that ignores that their doom and gloom is what already happens.

Because the rules are there to provide an equal base for everyone. 85 countries won medals during the last summer olympics. Not all those countries can afford to run national drug programmes. The average will tilt towards the countries with the best training programmes, but even in modern Olympics there's always amazing surprises and feats from athletes that are just talented and that's what the competition is supposed to be about.

 

[thepotatoman]

But its already like this. some people get by on genetics, some have to enhance theirs

Genetics don't come with self inflicted damage of side effects.

That aside, most arguments against liberal use of PEDs are quite similar to the arguments against drug legalization. Mostly FUD that ignores that their doom and gloom is what already happens.

The difference is you'll never be forced to take recreational drugs no matter how unrestricted they are, while many athletes would forced to take PEDs whether they want to or not, unless they want to give up the sport.

 

[AndyD]

Might as well turn that into Formula 1 where the human element is just a part of the performance or something.
Heck might as well give planes to the people running the 100m because clearly it would help them go faster.

That's already true in nearly every sport. The shoes and clothes they wear make a performance difference. So does the various equipment like bobsleds and horses. Humans are just one element of the whole show.

Genetics don't come with self inflicted damage of side effects.

They sometimes do. Disproportionate bodies that make them well suited for one task is one. Enlarged hearts...

 

[PSqueak]

Lets have super Olympics PEDs and Aguments. Make for more interesting tv.

Like, it'd be at least mildly amusing to at least once have a PED division or something of the olympics. Heavily regulated, naturally.

 

[Coriolanus]

The difference is you'll never be forced to take recreational drugs no matter how unrestricted they are, while many athletes would forced to take PEDs whether they want to or not, unless they want to give up the sport.

Again, if you wanna compete at a higher level, unless you're ridiculously genetically blessed, then you've no choice at all in the matter. Athletes already are forced to take PED's to compete. If you don't wanna take them? Don't compete.

That is the current scenario.

Because the rules are there to provide an equal base for everyone. 85 countries won medals during the last summer olympics. Not all those countries can afford to run national drug programmes. The average will tilt towards the countries with the best training programmes, but even in modern Olympics there's always amazing surprises and feats from athletes that are just talented and that's what the competition is supposed to be about.

Precisely. The rules do not provide an equal base for everyone, for they do not account for natural testosterone levels, which can vary massively.

As for not all countries being able to afford national drug programmes, many countries also aren't able to afford proper facilities, equipments or trainers. Should the countries that can afford those be hamstrung? Why allow the monetary advantage with everything *but* hormones?

As for those amazing surprises and feats, yeah, mate. Just like a dude that got testicular cancer winning the tour de france. Or so many other PED cases over the years.

 

[Purkake4]

Again, if you wanna compete at a higher level, unless you're ridiculously genetically blessed, then you've no choice at all in the matter. Athletes already are forced to take PED's to compete. If you don't wanna take them? Don't compete.

That is the current scenario.



Precisely. The rules do not provide an equal base for everyone, for they do not account for natural testosterone levels, which can vary massively.

As for not all countries being able to afford national drug programmes, many countries also aren't able to afford proper facilities, equipments or trainers. Should the countries that can afford those be hamstrung? Why allow the monetary advantage with everything *but* hormones?

As for those amazing surprises and feats, yeah, mate. Just like a dude that got testicular cancer winning the tour de france. Or so many other PED cases over the years.

Once the IOC decides that drugs are ok, they're welcome to them. Until then you have cheaters who get punished when found out.

 

[Coriolanus]

Until then you have cheaters who might get punished when if found out.

Indeed.

And for as long as the risk of losing to juicers >>>>> the risk of being found out, most people will be more than willing to turn a blind eye.

Which, obv, benefits those countries that have the most money, for they will have the best means to find ways to get around the detection programs.