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[Guerrillas in the Mist]

At the end of the day, though, Russia is still a petrostate that inherited a nuclear arsenal.

Sure, they're "scoring points" with these efforts, but they haven't managed to stop the EU and US sanctions that they're so desperate to put an end to.

 

[Cagey]

How is this Zuckerberg's fault? Facebook was the vector, and yeah FB probably should have some defense for this, but he can't be blamed in hindsight for this specifically

It's small picture thinking.

It's reminiscent of the cries to jail individual bank CEOs back in 2008, as if the problem was solved by identifying the figurative heads of agencies and figuratively chopping off the heads of these agency heads, when the problems were far larger and more systemic than individual people.

The issue here with Facebook is the immense size and scale of its algorithm machinery, its efficiency, and how it can get regulated in a manner that doesn't fundamentally alter the trajectory of the underlying technology.

It's not an issue of an individual CEO not hiring enough farms people to function as Ad Vetters.

Zucker is looking more and more like a Guttenburg/Luther analogue every single day. He's singlehandedly changed the method of propagating information, but as Luther soon realized you can quickly lose control of the message, leading to disastrous consequences.

This post captures the problem.

You have a network of over a billion people. It makes total sense to use it and manipulate it for evil. Facebook and other social media networks need to now wake up and realize how powerful these tools are and to protect the integrity of them and truth over $$$. Clearly they aren't moderating ads at all and have been taking money from anyone.

Could you imagine older media selling ads like this to just anyone. Holy crap. This is terrifying.

There's a terrific recent episode of a podcast called The Exponent (Episode 125 or 126, whichever of those isn't discussing the iPhone) which discussed this very issue. Older media's form didn't have the size, scale, or form to where these sorts of ads would have ever been possible. Newspaper companies were limited by the pages of their hard copy product: the newspaper. Facebook, as a website in the digital realm, has no limit, thus its scale is exponentially greater and shit like this has seeped through before the intent was realized.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

How is this Zuckerberg's fault? Facebook was the vector, and yeah FB probably should have some defense for this, but he can't be blamed in hindsight for this specifically

This sort of thing is the fault of the US and its people collectively, the way we've allowed ourselves to consume targeted media

...why?

It's explicitly illegal to directly accept foreign money to promote a presidential campaign.

There are oodles of smokescreens that you can hide behind (thanks to Citizens United), but in this case it looks like Zuckerberg knowingly took the money, knowing where it came from and how it would be used. It was bad enough that Obama warned him he might be in hot water, and now the FBI is directly investigating these transactions.

 

[platocplx]

Plenty of willful participants on the US side too from your sexless angry nerd buddies trolling for them too the GOP adopting a pro Russian stance. Next election will be a shitshow for sure.

This is borderline digital arms dealing. With disinformation as a weapon of mass destruction.

 

[Cagey]

It's explicitly illegal to directly accept foreign money to promote a presidential campaign.

There are oodles of smokescreens that you can hide behind (thanks to Citizens United), but in this case it looks like Zuckerberg knowingly took the money, knowing where it came from and how it would be used. It was bad enough that Obama warned him he might be in hot water, and now the FBI is directly investigating these transactions.

Right, and the government should fully enforce these laws on conduct that occurred.

But for the purposes of this happening again, that's reactive. I worry about devising proactive measures.

 

[D'ultimate]

You have to give credit where it's due. The foresight that went into this is genius level.

I wonder if anyone in the Trump administration or even 45 himself realizes how much of a pawn they are in the bigger game? Russia wanted them to win because they knew how much unrest his presidency would cause, how much damage it would do to America on the world stage.

Looking at things like this makes me wonder if Trump himself decided to run for president or he was approached and coaxed into it by those who had the big plans all along.

Well played Russia. Well played!

 

[Jeels]

I hope people start disabling their FB accounts as more info comes out. That'll be sweet justice. I know I'd be willing to if my professional organization didn't have a group page I have to manage.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Right, and the government should fully enforce these laws on conduct that occurred.

But for the purposes of this happening again, that's reactive. I worry about devising proactive measures.

FB will most likely be fined by the FCC; that's usually the extent of the punishment for such infractions.

The punitive extent of the fine, alongside a public apology/admission of what happened (as a good chunk of the US public still don't believe we were victims of a misinformation campaign), would go a long way toward stifling this kind of blatant interference in the future.

 

[platocplx]

You have to give credit where it's due. The foresight that went into this is genius level.

I wonder if anyone in the Trump administration or even 45 himself realizes how much of a pawn they are in the bigger game? Russia wanted them to win because they knew how much unrest his presidency would cause, how much damage it would do to America on the world stage.

Looking at things like this makes me wonder if Trump himself decided to run for president or he was approached and coaxed into it by those who had the big plans all along.

Well played Russia. Well played!

Feels like they are getting their revenge for the collapse of the Soviet Union and are looking to do the same here without ever drawing a weapon.

 

[PsychoSoldier]

At the end of the day, though, Russia is still a petrostate that inherited a nuclear arsenal.

Sure, they're "scoring points" with these efforts, but they haven't managed to stop the EU and US sanctions that they're so desperate to put an end to.

I wonder if slowing American efforts towards renewable energy sources made it worth it for Putin and the oligarchs.

Make all the money you can before the time runs out. Are they investing heavily in solar?

 

[jellies_two]

The issue here with Facebook is the immense size and scale of its algorithm machinery, its efficiency, and how it can get regulated in a manner that doesn't fundamentally alter the trajectory of the underlying technology.

It's not an issue of an individual CEO not hiring enough farms people to function as Ad Vetters.

This is a terrible take.
Facebook the company is completely in control of the systems it chooses to build and demonstrates that every time someone posts a nipple that gets flagged and deleted before it spreads. But it chooses to make boatloads of money ignoring much more insidious content. And that's one of the several huge but fixable problems the last election has revealed.

 

[Condom]

Disgusting and frightening at the same time. Mass manipulation on levels never seen before.

 

[radios shipping overview]

Sounds like Surkov's M.O.

 

[platocplx]

This is a terrible take.
Facebook the company is completely in control of the systems it chooses to build and demonstrates that every time someone posts a nipple that gets flagged and deleted before it spreads. But it chooses to make boatloads of money ignoring much more insidious content. And that's one of the several huge but fixable problems the last election has revealed.

They could have a moral stance as a company. But clearly they will sell ads to anyone buying regardless of the ramifications. Especially when they have tools that literally allow you to target anyone. It’s terrifying and I think I may have to step back from any huge consumption Of Facebook.

 

[Captain Smoker]

Facebook is such a fucking shitshow.

Every right-wing and anti-science idiot can spout his nonsense in every country to thousands and millions of people and they will share and repeat the bullshit.

It's like cancer.

 

[erragal]

No one cares about the reality of ads. No one wants to accept that ads can legitimately mnaipulate their behavior and purchasing habits because it implies they are capable of being influenced.

Advertising and branding creates phantom, illusory value, artifical unnecessary consumption, and assignates value for products based on irrelevant metrics. It also necessitates lower product quality; presumably if individuals were trained to only respond to the actual usability, quality, and reliability of a product that money dumped into advertising would at least in some way be redirected to the products.

Magnify these concepts with respect to political/ideological positions. How do you tell an enlisted career soldier their political opinion was molded and shaped by an adversarial foreign country and they are proportionally responsible for that. It's cognitive dissonance 101.

 

[Chie Satonaka]

I think it's fucking magical that people are in here patting Russia on the back for exploiting the fact that a sizeable amount of their countrymen are fucking racists.

Like, really? "I'm impressed." and "Well played!" Meanwhile, black folks stay losing in a society that hates them with a President who is willing to go to war with he fucking NFL because Kaep and others are protesting police brutality.

Maybe it's not the best time to talk about how fucking good their tactics are? Jesus Christ.

 

[ClosingADoor]

These automatic ads without any checks are starting to create more problems then it is worth. From things like this to malware, spam, etc, etc. Facebook, Google and others need to find a way to deal with this or start checking the stuff they allow on their ad networks, maybe even forced by government regulation.

Straight from their handbook: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics

This is starting to get increasingly worrying.

- Give Germany political dominance. This is happening in the EU a bit, but I don't have that much of a problem with it.
- Franco-German bloc. Is being made by the stupid actions of the US and UK lately.
- Cut UK off from Europe. Done.
- Ukraine annexation. Underway.

 

[Socivol]

As much as i hate them for doing this.. it is brilliant. Peter Baelish would be proud. Shit worked like a well rehearsed orchestra... what they have accomplished is probably more than what could have ever dreamed of. It really helped America has a bunch of dumbasses in the population.

All this does is show how stupid and uneducated Americans really are. I had some white woman on Facebook said that Obama praised a hate group just like Trump did. I asked for a source and a quote and she got really quiet.

 

[The Jazz Cabbage Master]

I implore you guys to delete your Facebook accounts.

Can't. It is our event planner.

 

[AcademicSaucer]

Is the problem really Facebook or people already thinking those things or people taking as facts what they read on their social media?

 

[Captain Smoker]

Is the problem really Facebook or people already thinking those things or people taking as facts what they read on their social media?

Everything is part of the problem.

Without Facebook people wouldn't share every bullshit story that is created for easy-to-share platforms like Facebook without checking if true or not.

This can trigger / expand already bad views, those echo-chambers are like cancer.


Facebook are literally helping every fucking extremist in the world at this point.

 

[jellies_two]

I don't understand how the tech millenials thought it was a good idea to deregulate ads.
Speaking as someone who grew up for a while with 4 tv channels and black and white tv, we left you with a system for all its flaws that had ad industry regulation: political ads in newspapers and tv were labeled, ads couldn't lie about their competition, or their own ingredients or powers. Things needed disclaimers. Huge fines could be imposed for companies taking the piss. These powers of oversight kept things in check to some extent..

And along came the tech bros, fuck all that, all those painfully learned lessons who needs them? Let's just build an engine to sell anything anyone wants to say to anyone else - kids, seniors, minorities, racists - and let's monetize the fuck out of it so we can get Rich, as in Billion dollar rich.
Let's take usenet - which when it was designed was mainly for people with good intentions who could be trusted - and let's build that out for everyone, let's offer apis to bad actors and bot nets, and let's monetize the fuck out of it, and lets have the minimum of rules because that's all too difficult.

 

[pantsmith]

Now to figure out why Russian operatives want me to buy Mahabis so bad (seriously - the ads are everywhere!)

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Is the problem really Facebook or people already thinking those things or people taking as facts what they read on their social media?

All of the above?

 

[ClosingADoor]

Is the problem really Facebook or people already thinking those things or people taking as facts what they read on their social media?

Facebook is the problem, because they allow this to happen on their platform. Of course other media and the people themselves are also a problem in either pushing similar narratives or believing it. But in this case, Facebook needs to take responsibility and start acting to solve the problem occurring on their end.

 

[Malvolio]

As with most businesses in America, the only way to hold them accountable is to stop using them.

 

[louiedog]

"I cast my vote, not the Russians"

but you made your decision because you're stupid and let them manipulate you!

 

[platocplx]

I don't understand how the tech millenials thought it was a good idea to deregulate ads.
Speaking as someone who grew up for a while with 4 tv channels and black and white tv, we left you with a system for all its flaws that had ad industry regulation: political ads in newspapers and tv were labeled, ads couldn't lie about their competition, or their own ingredients or powers. Things needed disclaimers. Huge fines could be imposed for companies taking the piss. These powers of oversight kept things in check to some extent..

And along came the tech bros, fuck all that, all those painfully learned lessons who needs them? Let's just build an engine to sell anything anyone wants to say to anyone else - kids, seniors, minorities, racists - and let's monetize the fuck out of it so we can get Rich, as in Billion dollar rich.
Let's take usenet - which when it was designed was mainly for people with good intentions who could be trusted - and let's build that out for everyone, let's offer apis to bad actors and bot nets, and let's monetize the fuck out of it, and lets have the minimum of rules because that's all too difficult.

Think about it. Who they are. They stay getting preached to probally as kids about how bad regulation is etc and how they need to “disrupt” marketplaces aka be ahead of regulations so that can make profit etc. this is the worst result of it by far.

Moderation is a good thing and more of these sites if they are moderating fucking boobs they should be monitoring and getting rid of all kinds of hate speech. I mean they JUST started to do something about terrorist accounts.

These libertarian ways of running a business is awful.

 

[Buckle]

Zuckerberg is such a fucking villain.

Just another one of those detached guys at the head of shit like Twitter and Reddit that refuse to take responsibility for the monster they've created.

I think it's fucking magical that people are in here patting Russia on the back for exploiting the fact that a sizeable amount of their countrymen are fucking racists.

Like, really? "I'm impressed." and "Well played!" Meanwhile, black folks stay losing in a society that hates them with a President who is willing to go to war with he fucking NFL because Kaep and others are protesting police brutality.

Maybe it's not the best time to talk about how fucking good their tactics are? Jesus Christ.

Its a pretty weird reaction, for sure.

 

[Zubz]

Can't. It is our event planner.

Ditto. I want to bail on Facebook very badly, but we haven't found a suitable equivalent to do to Facebook what Facebook did to MySpace yet. Socially speaking, I need new friends, & need a way to find stuff in my area to do that I won't feel entirely out of place doing.

The second enough local events are moved to another service, I'm gone. But I hate that I'm waiting in the meantime.

 

[excelsiorlef]

see: Wikileaks gaining credibility on the left by docu-dumping shit in the Bush era then following that up by spewing anti-semitic shit all over.

Yep.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

This was mentioned during a congressional hearing in the spring by name (it was former CI people who had gone into the private sector reguarding cybersecurity).

This is EXTREMELY important, not just for social and racial issues, but by exposing how by having impassioned actors lure from both directions seemingly counter to an intended goal. Thing is, note how fast they pivot. More light needs to be shone on this.

Please link this to Cambridge Analytica so we can get the Mercers and Kushner.

*fist bump*

Feels like they are getting their revenge for the collapse of the Soviet Union and are looking to do the same here without ever drawing a weapon.

I've heard it's that their economy being 40% based on the soft petroleum market and Putin's ability to control the blurry mob businesses via money laundering.

"I cast my vote, not the Russians"

but you made your decision because you're stupid and let them manipulate you!

This is what James Clapper is indirectly pointing at: no votes changed but had doubt cast on it. I don't think alot of folks are going to like this.

 

[KernelPanic]

Suddeny Russia is concerned about their citizens data:

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN1C11R5

Russia will block access to Facebook next year unless the social network complies with a law that requires websites which store the personal data of Russian citizens to do so on Russian servers, Russian news agencies reported on Tuesday.

 

[Lightning_Roller]

I think it's fucking magical that people are in here patting Russia on the back for exploiting the fact that a sizeable amount of their countrymen are fucking racists.

Like, really? "I'm impressed." and "Well played!" Meanwhile, black folks stay losing in a society that hates them with a President who is willing to go to war with he fucking NFL because Kaep and others are protesting police brutality.

Maybe it's not the best time to talk about how fucking good their tactics are? Jesus Christ.

Agreed. Like do they realize how silly they look for saying this?? And this could get worse, much worse for all of us.

 

[astroturfing]

Honestly? I'm impressed. Well played, Russia.

Well fuckin played

yeah no kidding.. they put the most powerful nation on earth in internal turmoil just by spreading around some well-targeted bullcrap. and how much did it cost them, was it even in the tens of millions? lol.

im afraid they'll do it to us next in Finland.. i still have faith in our educational system though, that we can resist even very clever propaganda with critical thinking. i was taught to distrust ads and be critical of all media when i was 10 or 11 by my history teacher.. i'm pretty thankful.

 

[Avixph]

Suddeny Russia is concerned about their citizens data:

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN1C11R5

Hmmm.

 

[Funky Papa]

This is starting to get increasingly worrying.

- Give Germany political dominance. This is happening in the EU a bit, but I don't have that much of a problem with it.
- Franco-German bloc. Is being made by the stupid actions of the US and UK lately.
- Cut UK off from Europe. Done.
- Ukraine annexation. Underway.

In all fairness, a beastly Franco-German Europe with no British influence has also been the feverish wet dream of many American writers with a world collapse boner since the Cold War days. Nothing ground breaking there.

Read this book if you feel like punishing yourself for ever liking anything French:

Spoiler alert: it's bad. It's very bad. It's also my current hate-read.

 

[Eylos]

While i understand the short goal of russia which is the end game?
I readed that nazis are becoming bigger in Russia, the monster is growing there.

 

[Randomizer]

What a strange time to be alive...

 

[KingV]

Dollars to donuts it will come out that Russia had ads and astroturf accounts talking about “Bernie Bros” and “Hillbots” too.

In retrospect, I started to realize the online rhetoric never seemed in line with the face to face conversations.

 

[SolarPowered]

White Republicans and at least a million or two Obama->Trump democrats got played hard. Facebook should get hit with the bluntest, heaviest and meanest looking object the US government can find. Whatever scares twitter, youtube and other social media apps straight.

 

[RPGCrazied]

Facebook was a mistake. I used it years ago for about a week, never again.

Twitter isn't that much better if you ask me.

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

This wouldn't have worked anywhere near as well as it did if people knew to tell when an article was full of shit.

 

[DrROBschiz]

Dollars to donuts it will come out that Russia had ads and astroturf accounts talking about “Bernie Bros” and “Hillbots” too.

In retrospect, I started to realize the online rhetoric never seemed in line with the face to face conversations.

Oh yea absolutely

They played both sides of the aisle to achieve their goal of chaos and dissent

 

[KernelPanic]

While i understand the short goal of russia which is the end game?
I readed that nazis are becoming bigger in Russia, the monster is growing there.

Their goal is to increase their sphere of influence while lowering the influence level of their opponents(the EU and USA). This will allow them to pull their shit with little opposition. Trump is dividing the US like no other which is drawing attention away from Russia. The USA is now also the biggest idiot on the world stage, even Russia is sounding like the voice of reason when it comes to issues like NK.

I'm sure there's money involved for their oligarchy too, ending sanctions, energy deals etc.

They played both sides of the aisle to achieve their goal of chaos and dissent

And you've got the POTUS creating more chaos constantly and you see why Russia wanted him elected.

 

[ahoyhoy]

Honestly? I'm impressed. Well played, Russia.

Well fuckin played

This is my initial reaction too.

It's going to be tough having to look in the mirror as a nation and consider what "freedoms" We're willing to give up to prevent future external fuckery like this.

 

[BrassDragon]

While i understand the short goal of russia which is the end game?
I readed that nazis are becoming bigger in Russia, the monster is growing there.

While there are true believers in the Russian government with geopolitcial / imperial designs (particularly in the military-espionage complex), by and large the Putin regime is focused on survival and looting the country dry - it's a criminal racket on a national scale where the distinction between elected officials, lifetime bureaucrats, intelligence services and organized crime are blurry at best. Western democracies create several major headaches for the regime: the West blocks Russia's expansionist ambitions towards neighboring (and resource rich) states, it actively pursues regime change (there is a profound paranoid streak in Russian politics, both founded and unfounded) and, most importantly, it has powerful financial and legislative tools to cut the Russian elite off from their vast holdings abroad. The Magnitsky Act and similar laws worldwide and an existential threat to the regime for this reason.

The compelling testimony of financial expert Bill Browder (champion of the Magnitsky Act) before the US senate is good window into the dark soul of Russian politics.

Against this background, destabilizing Western democracies, dissolving their alliances and weakening their legal / political options to sanction Russia seem to be driving this renewed cold war.

 

[Maxim726X]

Brilliant, honestly.

Have the country tear itself apart by revealing what lies underneath, without sending a single troop or missile.

Unfortunate that it's so easy, but clearly a wise way to aim your efforts.

 

[AnotherDayAnotherDollar]

Zuckerberg is a jerk but I still think the bigger problem is credulous-ass Middle Americans believing literally any bullshit you tell them if it fits their worldview of "minorities are trouble and hillary clinton is satan"

I've never bought that Fox News and russian spy-bots are diabolical masters of propaganda, it's that they're just playing the easiest crowd in the world

Both sides seem to be pretty easy to play, to be honest.

Brilliant, honestly.

Have the country tear itself apart by revealing what lies underneath, without sending a single troop or missile.

Unfortunate that it's so easy, but clearly a wise way to aim your efforts.

I watched a video sometime back from an old high ranking soviet defect, they really wanted to take generations to have the US fall apart. I think there were like 4-5 steps or whatever, but the main point was to divide the country and have it fall.