• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Salon - On Hillary's warmongering in Libya, the devasation that followed.

Status
Not open for further replies.

params7

Banned
A week old article, but everyone who is apologizing for Hillary's Iraq vote should just go to the page and read the article.

Selected quotes:

Sec. Clinton pressured a wary President Obama to join France and the U.K. in the war, the Times reported. Vice President Biden, National Security Adviser Tom Donilon and Defense Secretary Robert Gates, among others, opposed the war effort. Numerous government officials recalled that her hawkish enthusiasm was decisive in the “51-49 decision.”

The Times spoke of “Clinton’s deep belief in America’s power to do good in the world,” but did not stress that this belief is rooted in an aggressive militarism. It did quote French President Sarkozy, who fondly remembered how the secretary of state “was tough, she was bullish,” but the Times’ reporting understated Clinton’s belligerence.

Clinton’s leadership in the catastrophic war in Libya should ergo constantly be at the forefront of any discussion of the presidential primary.

Throughout the campaign, Clinton has tried to have her cake and eat it too. She has flaunted her leadership in the war as a sign of her supposed foreign policy experience, yet, at the same moment, strived to distance herself from the disastrous results of said war.

Today, Libya is in ruins. The seven months of NATO bombing effectively destroyed the government and left behind a political vacuum. Much of this has been filled by extremist groups.

Thousands of Libyans have been killed, and this violent chaos has sparked a flood of refugees. Hundreds of thousands of Libyan civilians have fled, often on dangerous smuggling boats. The U.N. estimates more than 400,000 people have been displaced.

A disjointed peace process, mediated by the U.N. and other countries, drags on, with no signs of the war ending anytime soon.

Hillary has, understandably, said little of these consequences. Yet, in debate after debate, with her call for more aggression on Syria and Iran, Clinton has only continued to demonstrate that she is an unabashed war hawk.
Perhaps unsurprisingly, then, looking back, the facts show that she did not just push for and lead the war in Libya; she even went out of her way to derail diplomacy.

Little-discussed secret audio recordings released in early 2015 reveal how top Pentagon officials, and even one of the most progressive Democrats in Congress, were so wary of Clinton’s warmongering that they corresponded with the regime of Libyan dictator Muammar Qaddafi in hopes of pursuing some form of diplomacy.

Qaddafi’s son Seif wanted to negotiate a ceasefire with the U.S. government, opening up communications with the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Clinton later intervened and asked the Pentagon to stop talking to the Qaddafi regime.


Rep. Dennis Kucinich wrote a letter to Clinton and Obama in August 2011, warning against the war. “I have been contacted by an intermediary in Libya who has indicated that President Muammar Gadhafi is willing to negotiate an end to the conflict under conditions which would seem to favor Administration policy,” the Democratic lawmaker said. His plea was ignored.


“Secretary Clinton does not want to negotiate at all,” the U.S. intelligence official added.

And not negotiate is indeed what she did. In fact, after Qaddafi was brutally killed — sodomized with a bayonet by rebels — Clinton gloated live on TV, “We came, we saw, he died!”


Human Rights Watch warned in 2013, in the wake of the Clinton-led war, of “serious and ongoing human rights violations against inhabitants of the town of Tawergha, who are widely viewed as having supported Muammar Gaddafi.”

Tawergha’s inhabitants were mostly descendants of black slaves, and were very poor. Rebels ethnically cleansed the city of the black Libyans.
Human Rights Watch reported that militant groups carried out “forced displacement of roughly 40,000 people, arbitrary detentions, torture, and killings are widespread, systematic, and sufficiently organized to be crimes against humanity.”

Moreover, there were reports that rebels put black Libyans, whom they accused of being mercenaries for Qaddafi, in cages, forcing them to eat flags and calling them “dogs.”

These horrific, racist crimes were not mentioned in the prolix New York Times pieces on Clinton’s legacy in Libya. Yet the U.S. backed many of the rebels who would go on to commit atrocities like this.

If the U.S. was truly so concerned with overthrowing a dictatorship and bringing democracy to the Middle East, why doesn’t it start with the planet’s most dictatorial nations? That is to say, its own allies in the Gulf.

Could the fact that Libya has enormous oil reserves, and was one of the world’s largest oil producers before the bombing, be a factor? Or its billions of dollars in gold reserves? Or Qaddafi’s history of supporting militant left-wing and anti-imperialist movements?

Salon has impressed me today. Here are the two NYTimes articles referenced:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/28/us/politics/hillary-clinton-libya.html?_r=1
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/28/us/politics/libya-isis-hillary-clinton.html

Source:
http://www.salon.com/2016/03/02/eve...illary_clinton_led_nato_bombing_of_libya_was/
 

jtb

Banned
why link to the salon summary article instead of the two exhaustive nytimes articles that it is entirely based on?

seriously my biggest pet peeve with internet journalism (and, frankly, just the awful website that is salon): somehow we've managed to pass off 1000 word summaries of other people's journalism as news
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
I love how the article fails to mention why we had to go into Libya in the first place. Go and read about the atrocities Gaddaffi committed against the Arab Spring protesters and against the rebels then come back and tell me if you wouldn't do the same thing.

Also, we led a multi-national coalition. it wasnt just hilary pulling the strings ffs.
 

Crisco

Banned
All these articles conveniently ignore how the country had already erupted into civil war before any intervention and that Gaddafi was about to massacre the civilian population of Benghazi.
 

Kimawolf

Member
All these articles conveniently ignore how the country was spiraling into civil war before any intervention and that Gaddafi was about to massacre the civilian population of Benghazi.
So instead we go in, remove any semblance of power and let the country descend into hell as people are still massacred and raped and btutalized. But hey we need to jump in and just bomb every problem. It will go away.
 

params7

Banned
why link to the salon summary article instead of the two exhaustive nytimes articles that it is entirely based on?

seriously my biggest pet peeve with internet journalism (and, frankly, just the awful website that is salon): somehow we've managed to pass off 1000 word summaries of other people's journalism as news

I did link the two articles that it is based on. Salon does add few points of their own as well (such as the genocide of Tawergha's black inhabitants).
 

foxtrot3d

Banned
All these articles conveniently ignore how the country had already erupted into civil war before any intervention and that Gaddafi was about to massacre the civilian population of Benghazi.

This. What an utterly terrible article from the Salon that also manages to totally manhandle and bastardize a pretty decent article from the NYT.

why link to the salon summary article instead of the two exhaustive nytimes articles that it is entirely based on?

seriously my biggest pet peeve with internet journalism (and, frankly, just the awful website that is salon): somehow we've managed to pass off 1000 word summaries of other people's journalism as news

Exactly.
 

Buzzman

Banned
In an alternate universe we'd be lambasting her for letting Benghazi get razed to the ground. There was no good choice here.
 

Crisco

Banned
So instead we go in, remove any semblance of power and let the country descend into hell as people are still massacred and raped and btutalized. But hey we need to jump in and just bomb every problem. It will go away.

No doubt, it didn't work out, but the country would have descended into hell either way. See: Syria, the eventuality of that outcome heavily influenced Obama's decision not to intervene there. Blame Hillary for wasting bombs and money on a hopeless situation, but she didn't create the chaos in Libya.
 

foxtrot3d

Banned
Reddit is good traffic.

The anti-Hilary hate on Reddit really is unbelievable, r/politics is filled with nothing but Hilary hit-job articles.

By the way let me just re-post what I posted in the older thread which was about the NYT article:

While the (NYT) article is pretty good giving a broad range of the events leading up to the intervention I've actually read former Sec. of Defense Robert Gates book in which he talks about the matter. Here is what he said actually went on during the meetings and the concerns of everyone:

Robert Gates said:
"The lineup inside the administration on how to respond to events in Libya was another sift of the political kaleidoscope, this time with Biden, Donilon, Daley, Mullen, McDonough, Brennan, and me urging caution about military involvement, and UN ambassador Susan Rice and NSS (National Security Staff) staffers Ben Rhodes and Samantha Power urging aggressive U.S. action to prevent an anticipated massacre of the rebels as Qaddafi fought to remain in power. Power was a Pulitzer Prize-winning author, an expert on genocide and repression, and a strong advocate of the "responsibility to protect," that is, the responsibility of civilized governments to intervene-militarily, if necessary-to prevent the large-scale killing of innocent civilians by their own repressive governments. In the final phase of the internal debate, Hilary threw here considerable clout behind Rice, Rhodes, and Power.

...

On March 17, the principals met for an hour and a half, and then we met with the president. We rehashed all the arguments, and then the president went around the room one last time. Biden, Mullen, Donilon, Daley, Brennan, McDonough, and I opposed getting ivolved. Clinton, Rice, Power, and Rhodes argued we had to. The president said it was a close call, but we couldn't stand idly by in the face of a potential humanitarian disaster-he came down on the side of intervention...In a private side conversation with me after the meeting, the president said the Libyan military operation had been a 51-49 call for him."
 

params7

Banned
I love how the article fails to mention why we had to go into Libya in the first place. Go and read about the atrocities Gaddaffi committed against the Arab Spring protesters and against the rebels then come back and tell me if you wouldn't do the same thing.

Ignoring diplomacy to blow the living shit out of the functioning government under the guise of humanitarianism - causing exponentially more devastation and death than the dictators managed is no solution either.

Lets ignore the fact that Libya under Gaddafi was economically strong and with a high development index, civilians who otherwise did not engage in political activism were able to live a normal life. Same for Iraq, which experienced almost no suicide bombing until 2003 - and post U.S. invasion the death count within 10 years has rivaled what the dictator managed in 30 years of his rule.
 

GYODX

Member
All these articles conveniently ignore how the country had already erupted into civil war before any intervention and that Gaddafi was about to massacre the civilian population of Benghazi.
Is Libya today better for it? Is it at all unreasonable to be wary of a leader who led us to intervene in that regional clusterfuck with hawkish enthusiasm because it seemed like the right thing to do--and let's assume we can attribute that intention to her--with little consideration to the slew of problems and instability that might have caused later on?

Saddam killed thousands of his own people. Guess who complained when the Bush administration toppled him (in case you're having difficulty guessing, it's the same people defending Hillary now for this). The scope might have been different but the end result is still the same.
 

Divvy

Canadians burned my passport
No, it wasn't. The UN essentially let Romeo Dallaire be eaten by the wolves, and the entire saga was a clusterfuck of epic proportions that fast tracked genocide.

Right, but IIRC, there was a lot of criticism of the Clinton administration for not intervening. I believe Bill Clinton said he viewed that as the greatest failure of his administration.
 

BowieZ

Banned
In an alternate universe we'd be lambasting her for letting Benghazi get razed to the ground. There was no good choice here.
Apart from the likelihood that one choice would have caused far less death, cost billions of dollars fewer, and would not open up a vacuum for an even worse more extreme leadership...
 

entremet

Member
Are there any enthusiastic Hilary supporters online?

It seems it mostly people voting for her because she's not a republican.

I do see some enthusiasm from older women, but that's really it.
 

Condom

Member
I love how the article fails to mention why we had to go into Libya in the first place. Go and read about the atrocities Gaddaffi committed against the Arab Spring protesters and against the rebels then come back and tell me if you wouldn't do the same thing.

Also, we led a multi-national coalition. it wasnt just hilary pulling the strings ffs.
Actions against the rebels (AKA terrorists) were justified, you're 100% being a hypocrite if you think he should have been nice to the rebels. They were attacking the state of Libya and as such the head of state has a responsibility to keep his country safe.
 

Goodstyle

Member
Trash articles like this and the people who perpetuate them are why there's so many folks on the internet who'll vote Trump in the GE. I can't even blame the people who see Hillary as a secret conservative, because they're constantly fed stupid bullshit like this.
 

120v

Member
still arguable Libya's in a better position without Qaddafi

not particularly an Iraq scenario where we were lied to, sank millions of blood and treasure, went unilaterally into 5-alarm clusterfuck....

the fact the article sort of absolves the rest of the administration except hillary says alot
 
Apart from the likelihood that one choice would have caused far less death, cost billions of dollars fewer, and would not open up a vacuum for an even worse more extreme leadership...
While it certainly would have saved us money in the long run, there's no garuntee that Libya would have avoided a protracted civil war like in Syria.

Heck since Libya has much better oil reserves than Syria, there would have only been more funds available for the conflict.
 
Right, but IIRC, there was a lot of criticism of the Clinton administration for not intervening. I believe Bill Clinton said he viewed that as the greatest failure of his administration.

I wouldn't be surprised. Then again, the French did vehemently defend the genociders for essentially the BS reason of protecting French interests in Francophone Africa, so I wonder how much of that played a role.
 
Letting the cruise missiles fly is usually not controversial to Americans. It doesn't really cost us that much, and it sounds vaguely impressive especially when you get to boast that you led an international coalition.
 

params7

Banned
arguably, Syria.

Yes - why didn't U.S. go fuck up yet another dictator so fundamentalists or Gulf's Sunni units could next fight to own the country by butchering even more civilians. Oh wait the U.S. did ship weapons to the Gulf states, equip and train rebels who just ended up joining Nusra, ISIS.
 
All these articles conveniently ignore how the country had already erupted into civil war before any intervention and that Gaddafi was about to massacre the civilian population of Benghazi.

I remember Gaddafi was using fighter jets to shoot civilian pop areas. Hell the UN sanctioned a no fly zone because of this.
 

Yamauchi

Banned
Personally I don't think a leader being an asshole to his own people is reason enough to destroy a nation's government and leave it in a state of civil war, portions of the country under the control of radical jihadis. Especially when a lot of America's allies are guilty of significant crimes against humanity. Indeed, as SoS Clinton never directed one word of criticism toward the Bahraini dictatorship, which violently and ruthlessly suppressed a peaceful protest movement -- far more peaceful than the protests in Libya, which were known to have been infiltrated by radical Islamists.

So the problem for using that kind of justification for foreign policy disasters is that it doesn't seem to be very genuine when it is only directed at America's so-called enemies but not those violent and autocratic regimes firmly within the American sphere of influence.
 

jblank83

Member
Are there any enthusiastic Hilary supporters online?

It seems it mostly people voting for her because she's not a republican.

I do see some enthusiasm from older women, but that's really it.

She's not an old white man.

Some people seem really motivated by that more than her politics.
 

Crisco

Banned
Is Libya today better for it? Is it at all unreasonable to be wary of a leader who led us to intervene in that regional clusterfuck with hawkish enthusiasm because it seemed like the right thing to do--and let's assume we can attribute that intention to her--with little consideration to the slew of problems and instability that might have caused later on?

Saddam killed thousands of his own people. Guess who complained when the Bush administration toppled him (in case you're having difficulty guessing, it's the same people defending Hillary now for this). The scope might have been different but the end result is still the same.

Fine, but in the long sad history of US foreign interventions, what Hillary (and Obama) did in Libya barely moves the scale, especially considering the utter lack of cost to us. It's hardly evidence that she's going to get us into another Iraq/Afghanistan style quagmire. Obama hasn't.

That has to be it, right? Because if you think Bernie Sanders, or any President, will go one or two terms without bombing something, then you're crazy. It doesn't make them warmongers.
 

nib95

Banned
I've been speaking about her and Obama's dreadful foreign policy for a while now. Whilst it's hard not to be an improvement following on from the outrageous and heinous clusterfuck that was the Iraq war, it's clear Hilary is still well under equipped on this front, as evidenced by her record on such things. She has been hugely detrimental, and has lent to further mass destabilisation of the Middle East (as discussed within the article) and with it, a more dangerous situation for so many countries in terms of security and humanitarian pressure.
 

noshten

Member
I love how the article fails to mention why we had to go into Libya in the first place. Go and read about the atrocities Gaddaffi committed against the Arab Spring protesters and against the rebels then come back and tell me if you wouldn't do the same thing.

Also, we led a multi-national coalition. it wasnt just hilary pulling the strings ffs.

Lets examine the whole situation. Arab Spring occurs - no actual assistance from the West. People start to rise up and no doubt there is already operatives from several agencies training local militia or providing them with arms.Mubarak was finally toppled by the military so a new leader can take over like while the regime remained. Gaddaffi remained in power after halting the resistance of the population.
The West spurred on by the toppling of Mubarak decides to assist overthrowing Gaddaffi in Libya without a plan for what would occur when they do. Chaos ensues and it turns out some of the rebels where actually pushing for a hard line religious authoritarian regime while others want a secular society. Meanwhile Saudi Arabia funds the zealots and civil war gets underway. Now a few years later ISIS come into this lawless state and are free to do what they want. It's exactly the problem with Clinton's foreign policy - if you want to topple someone, know that it's the process that follows which is important. Should we remove dictators who are committing atrocities and genocide - absolutely, but the everyone involved in such a move need to have the necessary resolve to get involved with Peacekeeping troops, infrastructure and education investments needed to govern this new state. Otherwise it would just devolve into something similar/or worse than previously.
Libya is a failed state and with ISIS moving there becomes ever more dangerous.

So despite the claims of atrocities Gaddaffi committed, we cannot play this game making the same mistakes over and over and over again. The truth is the US has always preferred regimes that are sympathetic to US interests. Those that have consulted the presidents over the last century haven't changed their priorities. Better a dictator than a country looking out for it's own interests. The main reason for Gaddaffi's overthrowing is a financial and geopolitical one - the emails with Blumenthal give a hint of this and obviously he was advocating an African common currency at the time. Regimes have been toppled for far less.

21 April 2011 Libya: another neocon war
David Swanson

The United States was in the business of supplying weapons to Gaddafi up until the moment it got into the business of supplying weapons to his opponents. In 2009, Britain, France and other European states sold Libya over $470m-worth of weapons. Our wars tend to be fought against our own weapons, and yet we go on arming everyone. The United States can no more intervene in Yemen or Bahrain or Saudi Arabia than in Libya. We are arming those dictatorships. In fact, to win the support of Saudi Arabia for its "intervention" in Libya, the US gave its approval for Saudi Arabia to send troops into Bahrain to attack civilians, a policy that US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton publicly defended.

The "humanitarian intervention" in Libya, meanwhile, whatever civilians it may have begun by protecting, immediately killed other civilians with its bombs and immediately shifted from its defensive justification to attacking retreating troops and participating in a civil war. The United States has very likely used depleted uranium weapons in Libya, leading American journalist Dave Lindorff to remark:

"It would be a tragic irony if rebels in Libya, after calling for assistance from the US and other Nato countries, succeeded in overthrowing the country's long-time tyrant Gaddafi, only to have their country contaminated by uranium dust – the fate already suffered by the peoples of Kuwait, Iraq, Afghanistan and Kosovo."

Irony is one word for it. Another is hypocrisy. Clearly, the military power of the west is not driven by humanitarian concerns. But that still leaves the question of whether, in this particular case, such power could accidentally have humanitarian results. The claim that a massive massacre of civilians was about to occur, on careful review, turns out to have been massively inflated. This doesn't mean that Gaddafi is a nice guy, that his military wasn't already killing civilians, or that it isn't still killing civilians. Another irony, in fact, is that Gaddafi is reportedly using horrible weapons, including landmines and cluster bombs, that much of the world has renounced – but that the United States has refused to.

But warfare tends to breed more warfare; and cycles of violence usually, not just occasionally, spiral out of control. That the United States is engaging in or supporting the killing of civilians in Afghanistan, Iraq, Yemen, Bahrain and elsewhere, while ignoring the killing of civilians in various other countries, is not a reason to tolerate it in Libya. But escalating a war and doing nothing are, contrary to Pentagon propaganda, not the only two choices. The United States and Europe could have stopped arming and supporting Gaddafi and – in what would have been a powerful message to Libya – stopped arming and supporting dictators around the region. We could have provided purely humanitarian aid. We could have pulled out the CIA and the special forces and sent in nonviolent activist trainers of the sort that accomplished so much this year in the nations to Libya's east and west. Risking the deaths of innocents while employing nonviolent tools is commonly viewed as horrific, but isn't responding with violence that will likely cause more deaths in the end even more so?

Washington imported a leader for the people's rebellion in Libya who has spent the past 20 years living with no known source of income a couple of miles from the CIA's headquarters in Virginia. Another man lives even closer to CIA headquarters: former US Vice President Dick Cheney. He expressed great concern in a speech in 1999 that foreign governments were controlling oil. "Oil remains fundamentally a government business," he said. "While many regions of the world offer great oil opportunities, the Middle East, with two thirds of the world's oil and the lowest cost, is still where the prize ultimately lies."

Former supreme allied commander Europe of Nato, from 1997 to 2000, Wesley Clark claims that in 2001, a general in the Pentagon showed him a piece of paper and said:

"I just got this memo today or yesterday from the office of the secretary of defence upstairs. It's a, it's a five-year plan. We're going to take down seven countries in five years. We're going to start with Iraq, then Syria, Lebanon, then Libya, Somalia, Sudan, we're going to come back and get Iran in five years."

That agenda fit perfectly with the plans of Washington insiders, such as those who famously spelled out their intentions in the reports of the thinktank called the Project for the New American Century. The fierce Iraqi and Afghan resistance didn't fit at all. Neither did the nonviolent revolutions in Tunisia and Egypt. But taking over Libya still makes perfect sense in the neoconservative worldview. And it makes sense in explaining war games used by Britain and France to simulate the invasion of a similar country.

The Libyan government controls more of its oil than any other nation on earth, and it is the type of oil that Europe finds easiest to refine. Libya also controls its own finances, leading American author Ellen Brown to point out an interesting fact about those seven countries named by Clark:

"What do these seven countries have in common? In the context of banking, one that sticks out is that none of them is listed among the 56 member banks of the Bank for International Settlements (BIS). That evidently puts them outside the long regulatory arm of the central bankers' central bank in Switzerland. The most renegade of the lot could be Libya and Iraq, the two that have actually been attacked. Kenneth Schortgen Jr, writing on Examiner.com, noted that 'ix months before the US moved into Iraq to take down Saddam Hussein, the oil nation had made the move to accept euros instead of dollars for oil, and this became a threat to the global dominance of the dollar as the reserve currency, and its dominion as the petrodollar.' According to a Russian article titled 'Bombing of Libya – Punishment for Gaddafi for His Attempt to Refuse US Dollar', Gaddafi made a similarly bold move: he initiated a movement to refuse the dollar and the euro, and called on Arab and African nations to use a new currency instead, the gold dinar. Gaddafi suggested establishing a united African continent, with its 200 million people using this single currency. During the past year, the idea was approved by many Arab countries and most African countries. The only opponents were the Republic of South Africa and the head of the League of Arab States. The initiative was viewed negatively by the US and the European Union, with French President Nicolas Sarkozy calling Libya a threat to the financial security of mankind; but Gaddafi was not swayed and continued his push for the creation of a united Africa. […] If the Gaddafi government goes down, it will be interesting to watch whether the new central bank [created by the rebels in March] joins the BIS, whether the nationalised oil industry gets sold off to investors, and whether education and healthcare continue to be free."


It will also be interesting to see whether Africom, the Pentagon's Africa Command, now based in Europe, establishes its headquarters on the continent for which it is named. We don't know what other motivations are at work: concerns over immigration to Europe? Desires to test weapons? War profiteering? Political calculations? Irrational lust for power? Overcompensation for having failed to turn against Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak until after he'd been unseated? But what about this one: actual fear of another Rwanda? That last one seems, frankly, the least likely. But what is certain is that such humanitarian concern alone did not launch this war, and that the continued use of war in this way will not benefit humanity.

The United Nations, far from being made credible, is being made the servant of wealthy nations making war on poor ones. And within the United States, where the United Nations is alternatively held up as a justification or mocked as irrelevant, the power to make war and to make law has been decisively placed in the hands of a series of single individuals who will carry the title "president" – precisely the outcome American revolutionaries broke with Britain in order to avoid.


http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/apr/21/libya-muammar-gaddafi
 

davepoobond

you can't put a price on sparks
Yes - why didn't U.S. go fuck up yet another dictator so fundamentalists or Gulf's Sunni units could next fight to own the country by butchering even more civilians. Oh wait the U.S. did ship weapons to the Gulf states, equip and train rebels who just ended up joining Nusra, ISIS.

"that's why we need real American military in Syria"


you just explained exactly why America is/was scrutinized for not going in...
 

goomba

Banned
This just shows Hillary is lying by distancing herself from the decision to invade for regime change.

Gaddafi warned the world this would happen. He warned Assad too
 
Right, but IIRC, there was a lot of criticism of the Clinton administration for not intervening. I believe Bill Clinton said he viewed that as the greatest failure of his administration.

Let's not forget that Clinton's stated reason for not intervening in Rwanda was public mistrust for his foreign policy after his botched actions in Somalia. People were war weary of destructive, ineffective interventions that only inflamed the situation worse.

I'm as noninterventionalist as they come, but even I'd have supported intervening in Rwanda. So that's one more bad consequence of interventionalist actions like Hillary's in Libya: it destroys political capital that could be needed in the rare event of an actually warranted intervention.
 

Oriel

Member
Blaming Clinton for Libya today is pretty fucking stupid when you consider that Gaddafi was threatening to take Benghazi and ruthlessly wipe out the civilians who rose up against his rule. Or "rats" as he called such people.

It also didn't help that the new provisional government that took charge after Gaddafi's death refused to allow UN troops into the country to restore civilian government.

Clinton spoke up in support of the ordinary Libyan people who were fighting a brutal dictator, she cannot be faulted for this. And perhaps had her calls for a no-fly zone in Syria been endorsed by Obama there wouldn't be millions of Syrians fleeing to Europe today.

Edit:

I don't think I can think of any time in history where the US was condemned for withholding military action.

Srebrenica.
 
I've been speaking about her and Obama's dreadful foreign policy for a while now. Whilst it's hard not to be an improvement following on from the outrageous and heinous clusterfuck that was the Iraq war, it's clear Hilary is still well under equipped on this front, as evidenced by her record on such things. She has been hugely detrimental, and has lent to further mass destabilisation of the Middle East (as discussed within the article) and with it, a more dangerous situation for so many countries in terms of security and humanitarian pressure.
I think there are no good scenarios here. Qaddafi was blowing up his citizens with anti vehicle weapons. His army surrounded Benghazi and his words had real massacre talk, like "we'll wipe them out like cockroaches" stuff. Honestly I dont want to imagine a scenario where no one did anything to stop him or his retribution. You really dont want to be caught up in a crossfire between payback from a madman against rebels. Because honestly I dont see a scenario where Qaddafi doesnt destroy his country - much like Bashar Al Assad is doing in Syria. Not stopping Qaddafi would have possibly meant another Syria on our hands which everyone agrees is the worst humanitarian crisis since WW2. What if we ended up with another Rwanda on our hands? What would Obama have felt? There's always a slim possibility that Qaddafi doesnt go apeshit. But what the best outcome at the time was stopping him from killing his own people.

In effect, foreign policy is always a bunch of shit choices. Price of inaction = Syria. Price of action = Libya. Yes Libya is torn apart now and on the brink of collapse. But if worse comes to worst, Libya will not end up as another Syria.
 

params7

Banned
"that's why we need real American military in Syria"


you just explained exactly why America is/was scrutinized for not going in...

As long as the intervention against the regime is followed up with 15-25 or more years of preoccupation to establish the required functioning democracy, which will take trillions of dollars and the U.S. fighting off accusations of colonialism then yeah, U.S. should have intervened with its own military.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom