Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
No. I know it's in the Qur'an.
However as long as I am aware witches are not part of the package. So I'm genuinely curious about his statement.
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Saudi Arabia beheads woman on charges of 'witchcraft and sorcery'
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No. I know it's in the Qur'an.
However as long as I am aware witches are not part of the package. So I'm genuinely curious about his statement.
113:1 Say: I seek refuge in the Lord of the Daybreak
113:2 From the evil of that which He created;
113:3 From the evil of the darkness when it is intense,
113:4 And from the evil of malignant witchcraft,
113:5 And from the evil of the envier when he envieth.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Hmm... Alright. I'm going to check and discuss them with the knowledgeable people about this.
Monocle
Member
I'll save you some time. Look at the second line from the bottom in EviLore's quote.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Well, in lots of cases the translation from Arabic to English causes all sort of problems since many of the Arabic words cannot be expressed properly with English. Also, maybe there is some specific context involved on those verses, so I don't know.
I don't claim to be very knowledgeable about the Qur'an, and that's why I would like to discuss them with the more knowledgeable people.
...But I'll wager this is actually off-topic to the thread at hand.
TheNatural
My Member!
Well wouldn't they have to be real in their mindset anyway? I mean, if they didn't believe witches were real they wouldn't have been fucking BEHEADING someone saying they WERE one LOL.
Hot Coldman
Banned
I'm a wizard and this is fucked u... nope, can't do it, this is too grim for even that joke :/
I love that you can split hairs over this stuff with a straight face.
Genies? Sure. Witches though? Are you crazy?!
Monocle
Member
Fair enough, I suppose, but I don't think this is off-topic. Our discussion relates to a key part of the story in the OP.
Are you prepared to claim that your interpretation is the correct one? The only correct one? Are you sure?
Sounds more like have faith in god to protect you from the evils of the world. Let's not pretend that the quran doesn't legitimize the concept of supernatural entities of all things, yeah?
If you really want to know what the Qur'an states about witchcraft, you should consult with the Saudi clerics who "urged the strongest possible punishments against fortune-tellers and faith healers as a threat to Islam", as they are some of the holiest men in the holiest lands of Islam (Mecca/Medina), and no doubt are quite familiar with the text of the Qur'an, and in its original Arabic too.
Right, that's fine, but that statement is made with the idea that "the evil of malignant witchcraft" is a thing that exists, just like darkness and enviers.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
I guess you misunderstood my initial reply to Evilore as being maliciously intended/hostile while all I asked was just a verification about his claim since I am interested in the subject.
Anyway, I am glad that I can entertain you.
Well, it's not like I am agreeing with this practice, really. I personally think beheading people on the grounds that they are allegedly practicing witchcraft and sorcery is not what Islam is about. I know many highly knowledgeable Islamic practitioners in the circle of my acquaintances that would also have a huge problem with this matter, and thus I would like to know their view on this (meaning how Qur'an can be used as justifications for actions such as these). And really, do you expect me to book a flight to Saudi Arabia right now to ask those clerics directly?
Not that it matters much, but as I have stated before, I personally dislike Saudi Arabia. Particularly its royal family.
thetechkid
Member
What is a threat to Islam? Is there some school for witchcraft and wizardry that is planning an attack on Islam and this person was one of them?
theignoramus
Member
actually, you get shot or sent to the torture chambers in Saud if you protest. So even those that want to have an understandable reason not to. Believe me, if the unrest in Qatif was a country-wide phenomenon the crackdown in bahrain would look like a picnic.
Hogwarts perhaps?
What does this particular case have to do with 'people wanting to remain in power'?
Sutton Dagger
Member
Yeah, that is why calling out the entire Saudi nation is unfair. By all means criticise the government, and I'm sure plenty of civilians support such vile things. It's just hard to come to any reasoned response about the population at large, given the oppression they face.
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
This news from Saudi Arabia makes me glad that the Catholic church does not have that kind of power in today´s Europe.
fierrotlepou
Member
This makes me sick. Sometimes I think they're just doing this for shits and giggles.
Just to be 100% clear, you are saying that djinn and witches are made up superstitions, but God is real, correct?
I'm muslim myself, and I'm pretty damn sure there are things such as black magic and "jinns" (what westerners call ghots/spirits and where the word genie comes from). There's even a story in the Qur'an about how someone was trying to put black magic on the prophet (pbuh). I've even seen black magic first hand. And no its not like frickin oblivion where they shoot spells etc, its more to do with sending curses upon other people, getting control of jinns and sending them to people to cause harm in their life.
Here's a Vice documntary on black magic in South Africa:
http://www.vice.com/vbs-special/tokoloshe
They call this creature the tokoloshe (whereas muslims would call it a jinn). Whats surpising is the description people give of this creature is really similiar to what many people from around the world say they've seen.
I'm pretty sure most people think I'm crazy etc but that because this shit doesn't really happen that much in the USA. Go to Africa and everyone will tell you stories about this. You may call them all crazy but I personally think theres something there, another force that people know how to tap into.
Here's a Vice documntary on black magic in South Africa:
http://www.vice.com/vbs-special/tokoloshe
They call this creature the tokoloshe (whereas muslims would call it a jinn). Whats surpising is the description people give of this creature is really similiar to what many people from around the world say they've seen.
I'm pretty sure most people think I'm crazy etc but that because this shit doesn't really happen that much in the USA. Go to Africa and everyone will tell you stories about this. You may call them all crazy but I personally think theres something there, another force that people know how to tap into.
Sutton Dagger
Member
This is the sort of irrational thinking that leads to these atrocities though, once you claim someone can invoke 'black magic' based on absolutely no evidence...well, anything goes.
Edit: This is the description of the Tokoloshe from your link
"It turns out this is a fairly common practice among women in South Africa since this hairy, pot-bellied dwarf, unlike your typical Western boogiemonsters, is believed to have a penis the size of a horse’s and a penchant for sneaking into people’s bedrooms and raping them.
The story goes that once you’ve slept with a Tokoloshe, you’ll never be satisfied by a man ever again—it typically leads to divorce and basically ruins your life."
You are telling me you believe this with a straight face?
Why isn't it like oblivion? If Black Magic is supernatural, why would there be "rules" on what it can do?
D
Deleted member 30609
Unconfirmed Member
Fucking wow. I need to go have a shower.
Rocket Scientist
Member
There's really nothing else to say but this. I just cannot understand how it's possible that the majority of Saudi's are okay with this... I don't want to believe it, but all these news reports and lack of serious protests against all these ridiculous laws makes it hard.
Haha, yeah I possibly do. I'm not 100% but I definitley think theres a chance of all this stuff. There's been many accounts of people having this done to them, and they feel like they've got a baby or something inside of them. Like a seed, per se. And the only way they've seemed to have gotten rid of it is by going to a witch doctor.
Why have we always got to live in absolutes? Why can't we just accept that MAYBE shit like this could happen. MAYBE.
Harry Dresden wouldn't lie to me.
Right, real life things like Egyptian pharmacists casting spells to try to separate a married couple, got it.
thetechkid
Member
What would you say to people who want more than he's said she said to believe something?
Because people take these seemingly harmless beliefs and then use them as the basis for harmful beliefs, as we see in the OP (or similar stories of witch-burnings in Africa).
That and the fact that we struggle to accept / understand people that don't seem able to filter bad information from good information.
Sutton Dagger
Member
I never said they absolutely don't exist, but you can throw them in the same pile as fairies, goblins and unicorns. Until there is evidence of these things manifest in physical reality, they are indistinguishable from things that don't exist. Add there isn't any evidence of their existence, so you know where I put these claims...
Firstly, the punishment outlined is damning and vile. No question on that. Even generally speaking, but more so because no such policy is outlined in either the Qur'an or in Saudi law. What you guys have to understand though, is the culture is very different out there. Over here the viewpoints on superstition, drugs and a whole barrage of other things don't carry nearly the same condemnation or cultural disdain as they do in other parts of the world. And in Saudi, witchcraft is detested. Whether the witchcraft worked or not is a different matter altogether, but the very act itself is vilified.
Secondly, this generalisation of hating on an entire nation by GAF because of the acts of a few. This is also truly embarrassing. Some of the justifications I've heard are because the government here in the US doesn't do such things. Well what the fucking fuck. Government here does a fuck load worse than that. How about illegal wars that kill thousands and destroy entire nations as just one example? Point is, would it be, on the basis of Iraq, US foreign policy with Israel etc, ok to condemn the whole of the US and all it's people? No. Clearly not. As despite those things happening all the bloody time, a large portion of the US does disagree with it. Just as I'm sure a large portion of Saudi's disagree with this punishment too.
I get it, people are outraged, and often that anger is tempered or exerted via hate, such is the way of the world. But just stop to think now and again people...
Anyway, carry on the generalised hate on Saudi, religion, Islam and all the rest!
Secondly, this generalisation of hating on an entire nation by GAF because of the acts of a few. This is also truly embarrassing. Some of the justifications I've heard are because the government here in the US doesn't do such things. Well what the fucking fuck. Government here does a fuck load worse than that. How about illegal wars that kill thousands and destroy entire nations as just one example? Point is, would it be, on the basis of Iraq, US foreign policy with Israel etc, ok to condemn the whole of the US and all it's people? No. Clearly not. As despite those things happening all the bloody time, a large portion of the US does disagree with it. Just as I'm sure a large portion of Saudi's disagree with this punishment too.
I get it, people are outraged, and often that anger is tempered or exerted via hate, such is the way of the world. But just stop to think now and again people...
Anyway, carry on the generalised hate on Saudi, religion, Islam and all the rest!
This amplifies the cruel stupidity of it.
I don't think GAF—inasmuch as it thinks and speaks with any semblance of consensus—is "hating on Saudi Arabia". I think a substantial number of folks who post in these threads are mortified by the spectacle of a narrow-mindedly theocratic culture wounding itself, and a ruling religio-political class basically laughing off millennia of development in how humans relate to each other.
I think quite a few people are infuriated on Saudi folks' behalf that they live under the preposterous moral sham of a "religious police force".
Not that I disagree with your basic points, but generalising about generalising is not a good look. GAF is not a monolithic construct, or sentient entity.
Such an amazing book.
Proof?
Do you not realise the bitter irony of your post? The very fact that you are condemning the views of so many and would force upon your own notion of what is right or wrong, is counter productive to the very rights and freedoms you support. Hatred for those doing witchcraft is wrong, but hatred towards people having a hatred for witchcraft is right. People have as much right to dislike witchcraft as you have for disliking those who dislike witchcraft. One is not any more cruel than the other just because you happen to favour it.
But whatever. These kinds of discussions are always circular as people have already made their minds up about what is or isn't acceptable or what is or isn't right. Cultural belief systems mean nothing if it interferes with your own notion or ideal of it.
Phantast2k
Member
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=33214795&postcount=8
game. set. match.
that thread was the second result I clicked on when searching your name + Israel, I'm sure there's more pressing evidence to be found..
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
I see a lot of hate for the political entity of Saudi Arabia, and I see a lot of hate for the Saudi government, but I don't see a lot of hate for the general population of Saudi Arabia. If anything, I would say people seem to view the Saudi public as oppressed peoples living under a barbaric regime.
The difference is that one hates something that doesn't hurt people, and one hates something that beheads them for political purposes or superstition. All beliefs are not equal.
For the record, I was referring to the Israeli government. Not Israeli's, many of whom protest against the actions of Israel and get shot down, locked up or ignored.
But I see your point.
I wonder if nib95 realizes the hypocrisy where he condemns GAF for making generalizations...then makes generalizations defending Saudi Arabia.
I'm not forcing my opinion on them. I lack a police force and a sickeningly ridiculous imitation of a legal system to carry out my (arguably feeble) moralising whims. I don't impinge on the rights of Saudi folks in the slightest, no matter how misanthropic I might perhaps be after a few drinks and a blow to the head.
Someone's right to dislike witchcraft is lessened in its moral credibility by the fact that witchcraft does not exist. They can still possess it, but it's not much of a possession. And when people are being executed on the basis of it—by a state that (not that it cares a lot, because they're a pack of totalitarian fuckers) assumes legitimacy in its actions because of a popular loathing for witchcraft—then those folks should have a good, independent, rationally-disposed look at themselves. Because complicity in cruelty is not a very different colour or shape from the real thing.
But how can you say that for sure? You don't know if someone perusing witchcraft to get at someone else could afflict any harm or not, even psychologically speaking. It's the same premise as religion. You believe it to be nonsense along with the notion of witchcraft or ghosts etc, but others do not. It's just a difference in belief.
Just to clarify, I am in no way supporting the beheading itself. Fuck no a million times. Just the notion that people having a disdain for witchcraft generally speaking are 'cruel' or whatever. Imo not at all, especially taking in to regards their cultural and religious beliefs.
You are correct, a belief in witchcraft is not bad, in and of itself. When that belief is used to punish people without evidence of wrongdoing and harm, then it becomes a second rate belief, at best.
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