Scottish independence

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Yixian

Banned
For those that don't know, in recent years the SNP, Scottish Nationalist Party, has been increasing in popularity and power in Scotland. The SNP support an independent Scotland, entirely separate from the United Kingdom. There's been a general growth in feeling in the country ever since the SNP entered into minority government that independence is becoming more and more likely, boosted now by the complete self-destruction of the Labour Party - historically very popular in Scotland - which saw the SNP become the largest party in Scotland in the recent European elections and thoughts that they might possibly achieve majority government in the next election.

Down south in England I'm sure many of you will know that the Conservative Party, historically rather unpopular in Scotland, is pretty much guaranteed to replace Labour as the ruling party within the next 10 months. Not only is this expected to push even more scots towards the SNP in order to get as far away from the Tories as possible, but the Tories have said they would be happy with an independent Scotland - indeed with Scotland separate from the UK the Conservative Party would have a more or less unbreakable grip on British politics for the foreseeable future.

There will be a referendum on independence next year. It's hard to know how it'll turn out, different opinion polls says different things but at the least it will result in significant further devolution. The economic crisis might dissuade scots from making any major changes right now, although this could perhaps work in reverse for an independent Scotland would have complete rights to it's oil in the North Sea which is currently being usurped by England.

I was wondering what views you guys have on all this. I'd be interested to know what you Americans might think of the idea of a separate sovereign Scotland. And of course if there are any Scots about I'd love to know what you think.

I have some family in Scotland but being of Irish descent they're obviously voting SNP. For those that care, many of the loyalists in Northern Ireland are actually of Scottish descent (Ulster Scots) rather than English, and were their home country to declare independence from the UK it's hard to imagine what kind of tenable claim they'd have left on keeping NI part of the United Kingdom.

Also, I imagine an independent Scotland would boost nationalist sentiment in Wales... maybe even Cornwall :lol

As this article points out though: http://www.newsweek.com/id/209953

The UK as we know it isn't what it used to be and the ties holding it's various constituent countries together are weaker than ever before. It might not be long before the British Isles consists of more than just 2 nations. I for one would like this; in an EU where it's so easy to move around, more diverse and unique cultural regions benefits us all really, and economic policy is usually better when tailored to the specific needs of each area.
 
Do you have any idea how many Braveheart pictures you're going to get?

At least one.

braveheart-5.jpg
 

Tobor

Member
WickedAngel said:
The only problem with Alaska is that it's full of Alaskans.

Good point. Maybe we can re-designate the entire state as a national park, and boot the riff raff out. Hmmm, maybe that would work in the UK as well.
 

Yixian

Banned
i_am_ben said:
A Scotland free of England or an England free of Scotland!?

Neither really, the Scots opted into the union. Then again at the time the population of either side hated the idea.

It was a pretty big betrayal of the Scottish people when the scots parliament voted to dissolve itself though.

Scotland and England are very different places, socially, economically, politically.. I can think of independent countries that are far less distinct from their neighbors than Alba >_>
 

Kabouter

Member
I don't think Scotland should become independent, that'd make it so much harder for me to decide what the worst nation in Western-Europe is.
 
As an American I only have one question: Why?

I think 90% of America doesn't know what Scotland exactly is, and the rest probably have no opinion.

Ok, I might be wrong, there might be 2 guys that aren't completely blitzed at the celtic games that have a grasp of Scottish politics, but the rest don't care.
 

iapetus

Scary Euro Man
Yixian said:
Scotland and England are very different places, socially, economically, politically.. I can think of independent countries that are far less distinct from their neighbors than Alba >_>

That sort of argument would suggest that most of the states of the US should be separate countries as well.

One problem I always see with independence through a democratic process like this (and it's one that its proponents recognise and ignore) is that it's very much an unbalanced process. Through the electoral process Scotland has rejected independence in the past, by not voting in the SNP. But they're going to carry on pressing for it, and if they don't achieve it in this vote, they'll keep pushing for another, and another. But you can bet your bottom dollar (or pound, or euro) that if there's ever an agreement for Scottish independence they won't be holding another referendum the next year to see whether people want to go back to the way things were. They'll be asking the same question over and over again until they get the answer they want, and then never asking it again just in case. :p

Also worth pointing out that the country the SNP hailed as an ideal economic model for an independent Scotland to follow was Iceland. You know, the one that basically went bankrupt. :p
 

i_am_ben

running_here_and_there
Yixian said:
Neither really, the Scots opted into the union. Then again at the time the population of either side hated the idea.

It was a pretty big betrayal of the Scottish people when the scots parliament voted to dissolve itself though.

Scotland and England are very different places, socially, economically, politically.. I can think of independent countries that are far less distinct from their neighbors than Alba >_>

name some.
 
My experience with separatist parties is thus: Lots of threats, no separation. In Canada, the Bloc Quebecous, ostensible separatists, are more interested in solidifying their control of Quebec's politcs and drawing a (comparatively) disproportionate amount of capital from Ottawa, than they are in actually creating a separate country.
 

iapetus

Scary Euro Man
bonesmccoy said:
My experience with separatist parties is thus: Lots of threats, no separation.

Here in the UK we have some that have been more along the lines of lots of threats, killing lots of innocent civilians, running criminal operations and kneecapping people they don't like. Canadians are pussies by comparison.
 

cntr

Banned
I want a world federation, so a completely independent Scotland? heh.

I could support making it a separate state once we form the Federation of Earth, though.
 

Kabouter

Member
X-Ninji said:
I want a world federation, so a completely independent Scotland? heh.

I could support making it a separate state once we form the Federation of Earth, though.
What on earth could make you want a world federation right now?
 

Zapages

Member
Kabouter said:
What on earth could make you want a world federation right now?

I think he has watch a bit too much Gundam or anime... We don't have colonies in space yet dude so there is no need to make a Earth Federation...
 

Yixian

Banned
iapetus said:
One problem I always see with independence through a democratic process like this (and it's one that its proponents recognise and ignore) is that it's very much an unbalanced process.

Where is the balance in the British first-past-the-post system? Scotland might have achieved independence in the 70s if it wasn't for this form of government, which undermines a huge part of democracy in the UK.
 

Yixian

Banned
ConfusingJazz said:
People tried that once. Didn't really work out so well.

The world would be a better place if China, Russia and the US were split into separate nations. Not that any of those is even remotely likely of happening any time soon.

But Scotland is a different matter, people generally don't vote for change so even though the majority of scots probably wish Scotland was independent it's still more likely that they'll not vote for full independence next year... but you never know.
 

iapetus

Scary Euro Man
Yixian said:
Where is the balance in the British first-past-the-post system? Scotland might have achieved independence in the 70s if it wasn't for this form of government, which undermines a huge part of democracy in the UK.

The other side can be first past the post the next time round. Duh.

And I'm not a fan of first past the post either, though I recognise why it's difficult to get rid of.
 
iapetus said:
Here in the UK we have some that have been more along the lines of lots of threats, killing lots of innocent civilians, running criminal operations and kneecapping people they don't like. Canadians are pussies by comparison.

Heh, true. But the Troubles are so very different than Scotland's piecemeal drive toward independence. I doubt the current generation of Scots have the chutzpah to maintain a long, drawn out conflict with those English Huns.

And in full disclosure, my family is Irish!
 

iapetus

Scary Euro Man
Yixian said:
But Scotland is a different matter, people generally don't vote for change so even though the majority of scots probably wish Scotland was independent it's still more likely that they'll not vote for full independence next year... but you never know.

Ah, the good old Yixian fallback. "Actually everyone agrees with me, it's just that the massive majority with the same views as me choose not to vote."
 

Yixian

Banned
iapetus said:
The other side can be first past the post the next time round. Duh.

And I'm not a fan of first past the post either, though I recognise why it's difficult to get rid of.

FPTP gives Scotland, NI and Wales a pretty huge and credible incentive to want to leave the UK so long as it lingers on.
 
Yixian said:
The world would be a better place if China, Russia and the US were split into separate nations. Not that any of those is even remotely likely of happening any time soon.

But Scotland is a different matter, people generally don't vote for change so even though the majority of scots probably wish Scotland was independent it's still more likely that they'll not vote for full independence next year... but you never know.

Why would the world be better with a broken up US?
 

Chichikov

Member
I think it will be great for Scotland, not so much for England.
That two reasons for me to wholeheartdly support Scottish independence.

That being said, I'm having hard time seeing it happening, or if I was to put it in a not so relevant but marginally funny picture form -
9lilj6.jpg
 

Yixian

Banned
iapetus said:
Ah, the good old Yixian fallback. "Actually everyone agrees with me, it's just that the massive majority with the same views as me choose not to vote."

Ah, the good old iapetus fallback. Being wrong.

news-graphics-2006-_631094a.jpg


I say "probably" because an opinion poll is just an opinion poll and they change all the time.
 

goomba

Banned
I've always been amazed at how the Scots bent over for the Brits and joined the UK.. especially compared to the Irish.
 

iapetus

Scary Euro Man
Yixian said:
Ah, the good old iapetus fallback. Being wrong.

I see. An opinion poll (with some skewed questions at that) which you freely admit is cherry-picking from a range of polls that show contrasting results. That sure as hell proves your point.
 

iapetus

Scary Euro Man
Yixian said:
FPTP gives Scotland, NI and Wales a pretty huge and credible incentive to want to leave the UK so long as it lingers on.

And England.

Um. Or maybe that's a stupid premise, and the incentive is actually to install a better voting system?
 

Yixian

Banned
goomba said:
I've always been amazed at how the Scots bent over for the Brits and joined the UK.. especially compared to the Irish.

Well, they were different circumstances. A scottish king became king of England and shortly afterward the Scot voted to dissolve their own parliament and give full power to the parliament in Westminster. The Irish were violently invaded, the native population refused the right to vote and their language and culture outlawed. You can see how the latter sparked more resistance.

iapetus said:
I see. An opinion poll (with some skewed questions at that) which you freely admit is cherry-picking from a range of polls that show contrasting results. That sure as hell proves your point.

:lol Ugh god, why do you even bother posting? Just mumble under your breath.
 
Yixian said:
Ah, the good old iapetus fallback. Being wrong.

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/00631/news-graphics-2006-_631094a.jpg[img]

I say "probably" because an opinion poll is just an opinion poll and they change all the time.[/QUOTE]

You realize a lot can change in 3 years and a recession later: [url]http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article5908726.ece[/url]
 

iapetus

Scary Euro Man
iapetus said:
People who were in favour of a referendum didn't vote, or lied about whether they wanted one.

Dear lord. I thought I was joking. I didn't think he'd actually say that.

Yixian said:
Exactly my point, the majority of scots might wish that scotland was already and independent nation but people are more likely to vote for the same rather than for change, particularly atm.

So the old opinion poll showing a small majority for independence was 100% accurate and proves me wrong, and a new opinion poll showing a massive majority against independence is just a sign that people always vote to avoid change.

I guess we shouldn't expect any more from you, though.
 

iapetus

Scary Euro Man
Zenith said:
*sigh* why have more divisions in the world. Can't we just work things out between us?

An independent Scotland would want to be more part of Europe than the UK does, so it's not entirely a question of division.
 
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