Scottish independence
- Thread starter Yixian
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MrPing1000
Member
Yixian said:
Is that true though? Cause we get an awful lot of money from Westminster, much more than we contribute via taxes, could the Republic soak that up?
I'm curious tbh. Of course it's not happening anytime soon anyway, and if it does happen I'd petition to have the national anthem change to Ireland's Call (the rugby union national anthem). It kicks ass.
And Belfast is a shithole, so is Dublin and Manchester for that matter. Edinburgh is awesome though.
WrathOfOtaibah
Banned
Yixian caught saying dumb shit...yet again.
MrPing1000 said:
Manchester is alright... Dublin is fucking brilliant and I don't need to defend that, it's one of the most popular cities in Europe right now, love it - so friendly, so interesting - really top class.
And yeah Edinburgh is fucking class.
Belfast is a world class city waiting to happen, as a the second capital of Ireland I really genuinely believe it could do that. Right now it's torn by the cultural divide between nationalists and unionists and frozen by the effects of that tear on Stormont.
I don't have a thing against the Ulster Scots of the English and protestant inhabitants of NI, as much as anything I want the North to reunite with the south so that we southerners can benefit from their cultural input.
Belfast would have far more importance in Ireland than it does in the UK, as a well established city it'd certainly make a killer duo with Dublin raking in investment and building new industries on the island. Plus, how many Brits go and spend their £s in Belfast? Now think how many Irish would be spending their s.
I can tell you now, the Irish love holidaying in their own country, and tourism from the south would be through the roof in a united Ireland.
The Experiment said:
Can we ban this guy please? He lowers the average IQ of this forum.
DefectiveReject
Banned
I'm English, and as much as I like the United Kingdom, I believe the English economy provides more money to Scotland than Scotland does itself. I believe there are also fees and what not Scottish students get that English don't.
Scotland, Wales or NI would most likely be 3rd rate players on the world stage, whereas at least England would keep power as we have the monies.
Edited due to iPhone stupidity
Scotland, Wales or NI would most likely be 3rd rate players on the world stage, whereas at least England would keep power as we have the monies.
Edited due to iPhone stupidity
Napoleonthechimp
Member
England.
I can't even say it without sneering. I don't think I'll ever be able to consider myself English without feeling embarrassed.
I can't even say it without sneering. I don't think I'll ever be able to consider myself English without feeling embarrassed.
LegendofJoe
Member
Great Rumbler said:
Myself and my family included. The strangely ironic bit is that I've been putting a lot of thought lately into what would be involved in order to move back to the old country. For some reason I have this powerful urge to return home to my ethnic roots. The initial costs are a definitely a bit daunting, but I've been casually looking for job opportunities for a while now. We'll see I guess. Very interesting thread btw guys.
Loonz
Member
bonesmccoy said:
Being a Spanishman myself I would say we share the same experience. Separatist play the "victim" role to justify their threats to the rest of the country, to take more resources... more pieces of the cake for themselves (at the expense of the rest of the citizens of the same country that happen to live elsewhere). I hate them, rabidly, their stupidity knows no borders.
Sir Fragula said:
Man, do not try to draw parallelisms between separatist from different countries, because their origins and motivations are not always the same. Scotland was once a kingdom. Catalonia never was anything remotely similar to a single country. EVER. Same for the Basque country (ironically, the foundations of the kingdom of Castille, you know, their historical "oppresor", lie there).
Those nationalisms rose throughout the 19th Century, after the Spanish Independence War (against the French, supported by the UK an Portugal, but that's another story), along with the Romanticism, as happened in many other European countries. The collapse of the Spanish Empire in that century was probably the main cause, but not the only one. Then, after the Spanish Civil War (Spain has fought many wars, another story as well), when the Franco's General dictatorship came those nationalisms dissappeared apparently crushed by it.
They (sadly, IMHO) resurfaced after Franco's death, along with the democratization of Spain. I was born in 1978, never lived during the dictatorship (ended in 1975), and in my experience separatists are just a noisy bunch of selfish and sectarian people that are only able to thrive by sucking the blood (I mean money) of the rest of their compratiots while they accuse them of things that happened hundreds of years ago... if ever. They use their regional languages as weapons, they force them upon the people who live in their regions. I can't understand their complaints, they have everything they want. They are rich regions. They even pay less or no taxes, they basically live on the taxes from the rest of the country. Separatisms don't solve anything, they're a source of trouble you don't want to have.
If there is ever any referendum about their separation from Spain I would vote for their "desired" independence, that's a no-brainer. At least the rest would have peace for once. But I don't think my eyes would see such a thing, as I said before they threat but never carry it out. I wish... and I am not alone on this.
To summarize: Scottish, don't be stupid and annoying to the rest of your country fellowman and women and keep yourselves the way you're now. Why risk what you have now?. The world is walking towards unification, why getting apart?. UK is stronger with the Scots in, and vice versa.
I never understood the passion on this issue. I'm from the US and I, looking at it from that perspective can't imagine separating a state from the union. Each has great autonomy and lots of unique culture. But I would never understand California becoming independent. It might be able to make it on its own, but the whole is better off for being a union. To separate would marginalize the subsequent units. In the case of Britain, were talking about some small political units--geographically and in terms of population. They would not wield power internationally like they do as a whole the economy would be more vulnerable. It just doesn't seem smart to me.
APZonerunner
Member
Speaking as an Englishman, let them go. If they want it, let them have it.
blazinglord
Member
As a matter of principle, I use to support Northern Ireland's continued existence within the union until the people of NI decide otherwise. But lately I'm beginning to think that NI is more trouble than worth. I don't think I would be terribly opposed to Gordon Brown tomorrow announcing that he is going to cut ties with NI and give it to the Republic as a gift (because historically and legally it belongs to the UK and has never belonged to the Republic so the talk of 'reunification' and what it implies is inaccurate).Yixian said:
Also, I would support the Scots having a referendum and deciding whether they want to leave the union or not, and if they want to leave then Westminster shouldn't stand in their way. But if they want to remain, then they are going to have to accept some
changes that are going to come from the Tories when they win. Like Scottish MPs voting on English laws that don't affect their own constituents in Scotland, and of course the Barnett formula. However, I do think that the Scottish parliament, if they remain in the union, should have some more powers over their own domestic affairs to dilute the bitter pill they are going to have to swallow.
Before the EU, I as a native born Scot, would have been against this for purely practical reasons. The "Scotland is subsidized by Westminster" argument is nonsense that requires ignoring lots of geological and regional contributions and the truth is that nobody has ever done a proper per capita comparison that holds water.
I like it for emotional, patriotic reasons and I'd back it if it could be demonstrated that Scotland could not only be self-sufficient, but successful as a nation among Europe. I don't hate England other than in schoolboy terms.
But there's no denying it's a beautiful little country soaked in ancient history, tradition and culture.
And this would be a peaceful, healthy separation, rare in "National" disputes.
I like it for emotional, patriotic reasons and I'd back it if it could be demonstrated that Scotland could not only be self-sufficient, but successful as a nation among Europe. I don't hate England other than in schoolboy terms.
But there's no denying it's a beautiful little country soaked in ancient history, tradition and culture.
And this would be a peaceful, healthy separation, rare in "National" disputes.
Coming from Scotland myself, I can see where a lot of SNP supporters are coming from. My friends and I have often debated whether Independence would indeed benefit Scotland or not, but that isn't the real issue in my opinion.
Scotland will never be the same as England, and there will always be a certain amount of rivalry between the two nations, i.e. football, rugby and such. In a way it's much like Rangers and Celtic in Glasgow. However, I do feel that in the future that both Scotland and England will become more entwined. I feel as if there the a small percentage of Scottish people that teach children to near enough resent the English, and the Union in particular.
Every time I return home from Holiday I hear at least one person complain that it says "British Citizen" instead of "Scottish Citizen", and it saddens me.
I think, and I hope, that the Union is here to stay, for a while yet. While I wish Labour would win the next election, I'm happy with the Torries as long as we sort out all this underfunding in the Military, but that's for another thread.
Scotland will never be the same as England, and there will always be a certain amount of rivalry between the two nations, i.e. football, rugby and such. In a way it's much like Rangers and Celtic in Glasgow. However, I do feel that in the future that both Scotland and England will become more entwined. I feel as if there the a small percentage of Scottish people that teach children to near enough resent the English, and the Union in particular.
Every time I return home from Holiday I hear at least one person complain that it says "British Citizen" instead of "Scottish Citizen", and it saddens me.
I think, and I hope, that the Union is here to stay, for a while yet. While I wish Labour would win the next election, I'm happy with the Torries as long as we sort out all this underfunding in the Military, but that's for another thread.
fizzelopeguss
Banned
goomba said:
The fuck, learn history, scotland was a bankrupt shithole of a backwater before the act of union. If anyone "bent over" it was the english.
scots have £1500 more perhead spent on them than their english counterparts.
Westminster is dominated by scots.
North Sea oil was payed for with english and big oil money, the rigs were built by english, american and scottish labourers.
I guess i agree with you though, a free england from scotti tyranny would be a good thing.
Napoleonthechimp said:
This shit is why I am all in favour of Scottish independence. There's a hope the English might remember what it is to be English and stop being snivelling apologists for past transgressions.
Why do you feel this way Napoleon? Is it based on the last 30 years? The last 300? How on earth could anybody be ashamed of being English if you look past our current woes and Scottish government?
goomba said:
Over half your examples (Cromwell, Bonnie Prince Charlie, the Jacobites) were civil wars grounded in religious disputes, not really "England invading Scotland". But yes, there was a lot of bloody history between England and Scotland in the 13th and 14th centuries, however the acts of union weren't for another 300 years.
Tim the Wiz
Banned
No bloody way! That would undermine the realism of this fictional character:
Itsintheairtonight
Banned
Sweden and norway separated in 1905 peacefully.
And i think both of us benefited from it, and i doubt anyone would want the union back(although some swedes would probably want some of that oil.)
Decentralization of power is almost always good imo.
And i think both of us benefited from it, and i doubt anyone would want the union back(although some swedes would probably want some of that oil.)
Decentralization of power is almost always good imo.
Scooter said:
Not sure I quite agree with that - there's a case for saying that the rest of the UK should have some degree of say in it, and that it should happen if it's mutually beneficial (or at least not harmful) to both Scotland and whatever's left behind.
As mentioned before, there should probably also be some sort of process for undoing it if it turns out to have been a mistake.
I really can't agree with that. You'd have a situation like when Western Australia voted to leave the Australian commonwealth, but the rest of the states there voted for Western Australia to stay. That's just against the spirit of such a referendum. Scotland should be able to decide whether it wants to stay or go, so should England and Wales. Of course in reality it seems support for separatism may actually be higher in England anyway, so the practical difference would be negligible.iapetus said:
And there is a process by which the process could be reversed - treaties between the parties concerned reestablishing the union should all parties agree.
Yixian said:
well okay, i'll pick up on the jacobite uprising. which was more of a scottish civil war than a glorious patriotic revolution, rooted in religious dispute. with as many scots fighting against charles edward stuart as for him. it was only really in the north west (where support for him was reinforced by the threat of having your home burnt to the ground) that the man and his cause held water, with his defeat at culloden welcomed and indeed celebrated in the lowlands.
something they were right to do given that with the jacobite threat eradicated, scotland enjoyed 20 years of immensely prosperous growth. a period that transformed cities like edinburgh into "hotbeds of genius". sacrificing the outdated cult of honor for a cult of modernity.
Sir Fragula said:
I believe that ideally a decision that will impact on a wide range of people should be decided by as many of those people as possible. If we take your position to its extreme, then I should be allowed to leave the UK and be my own independent country, because my vote to do so would be 100%, and nobody else should have a say in it.
Sir Fragula said:
Yes, and I think it would be reasonable to provide in advance for a referendum on whether this should take place after a suitable period of time.
i_am_ben
running_here_and_there
Sir Fragula said:
although not really related to your post, Western Australian (WA) 'nationalism' is dead and WA is now an integral part of the Australian nation. So perhaps the other states having a say all worked out for the best in the long run.
Although i must confess i thought it was the UK who denied WA from establishing a separate country. Wasn't aware the other states voted on it.
I wonder what the effect of the almost inevitable Tory victory in the next general election in the UK will be. A lot of Scots are very hostile to the Conservative Party, there's relatively far less support for them up there, and like I said earlier the Tories have said they'd be happy in principle for the Scots to secede as it would secure a massive massive majority for their party in England.
I think the best chance the SNP have is to hold the referendum very soon after a Tory victory in the general election. I haven't heard any talk of their being a clause allowing them to rejoin the union later on if they want but that'd also be a good way of reducing the fear some voters might have in supporting secession - but to be honest, I can't imagine it happening even if Scotland fell on hard economic times after becoming independent, that sort of thing just so rarely happens.
I think the best chance the SNP have is to hold the referendum very soon after a Tory victory in the general election. I haven't heard any talk of their being a clause allowing them to rejoin the union later on if they want but that'd also be a good way of reducing the fear some voters might have in supporting secession - but to be honest, I can't imagine it happening even if Scotland fell on hard economic times after becoming independent, that sort of thing just so rarely happens.
SovietStriker
Member
Loonz said:
What about when it belonged to Aragon (when Aragon entered dynastic union with Catalonia)?
fizzelopeguss
Banned
goomba said:
Scotland invaded england (and ireland) on a number of occasions also. Infact if you looked closer into that lovely cherry picked list of yours a few of those battles were the result of scottish meddling in english affairs.
mcmonkeyplc
Neo Member
Yixian said:
Why are you anti-Britain?
As for Scotland becoming independant. What would you produce? Call centres? Oil is running out in the north sea, the oil drilling platoforms are owned by London based firms. You'd levy a tax on it. Woooo. Cant impose trade restrictions as a member of the EU if you do indeed join the EU.
There are sound economic reasons why Scotland should not be independant.
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