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[bonesmccoy]

*sigh* why have more divisions in the world. Can't we just work things out between us?

Vive la difference!

I'm all for a rollback of centralized governance and finance, especially if it means that smaller cultures can thrive again. My biggest disappointment visiting the UK after a 14 year hiatus was just how North American it had become.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Neither really, the Scots opted into the union. Then again at the time the population of either side hated the idea.

It was a pretty big betrayal of the Scottish people when the scots parliament voted to dissolve itself though.

Scotland and England are very different places, socially, economically, politically.. I can think of independent countries that are far less distinct from their neighbors than Alba >_>

Huh? Different parts of Scotland are more different from each other than England is from Scotland.

Only nationalistic idiots think this is a good idea. If everyone were to be independent we'd slide into irrelevancy pretty bloody quickly.

 

[Spasm]

The Scottish are revolting!

 

[bonesmccoy]

LOL

 

[Dead Man Typing]

Celtic scored again!

 

[Operations]

How would an independent Scotland benefit its citizens in this day and age?

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

The Scottish are revolting!

I've always hated the retarded 'auld enemy' attitude towards England. This is the 21st century for fuck's sake. Why don't people just grow up.

The only reason people are considering this is out of some misplaced concept of nationalistic pride. If they considered all the other consequences then they'd never go for it.

 

[iamaustrian]

 

[Carlisle]

If this happens, it's only a matter of time before China, Canada, and the United States split up into various countries.

US has been there, done that. What have we had? Like 4 different countries? United States, Confederate States, Republic of Texas, Republic of California?

That shit is old school.

 

[Walshicus]

The SNP support an independent Scotland, entirely separate from the United Kingdom.

No they don't.

The SNP are still Royalists - they would keep the Queen. They have also indicated a preference for establishing closer [treatied] ties with England etc. even post devolution. And on top of that they still mostly support the EU where English MEPs would have a voice in Scotland etc.

That's like saying Ireland is completely separate from the UK which is also untrue - there are so many reciprocal established arrangements that make the distinction between British and Irish citizenry marginal when compared to even other EU nations.


That said as an Englishman, of course I support the dissolution of the UK. The UK is obsolete and it's end will help foster in the end of multinational states in favour of regional confederation. It will be hard for Madrid to keep fighting Basque and Catalonia or Paris keeping hold of Corsica etc. when Scotland is separate.

By reducing to England and Scotland and Wales, you'll see the 'velocity' and legitimacy of effective legislation increase. In addition by reducing the psychology size of the states you'll see a more humble and concilliatory foreign policy and a greater emphasise on international collaboration.

Furthermore by making England and Scotland financially separate, you'll start seeing supply-side policies better targetted to each economy.

In summary, bring it on. As someone who loves England *and* Scotland, separation is the way forward.

 

[Jean-Claude Picard]

Sheparation?! But I don't even have a racket!

 

[Druz]

Why should UK give up territories they've rightfully conquered?

 

[ConfusingJazz]

In addition by reducing the psychology size of the states you'll see a more humble and concilliatory foreign policy and a greater emphasise on international collaboration.

Why? What makes smaller states be more peaceful?

 

[norinrad21]

How would an independent Scotland benefit its citizens in this day and age?

They could join Iceland

 

[ChoklitReign]

Why should UK give up territories they've rightfully conquered?

They fight back.

 

[gutter_trash]

Here in the UK we have some that have been more along the lines of lots of threats, killing lots of innocent civilians, running criminal operations and kneecapping people they don't like. Canadians are pussies by comparison.

at least they went through a democratic process TWICE in Quebec with two Referendums in 1980 and 1995 (the 1995 result was razor close: 50.6% for the NO vs 49.4% for the YES

I personnaly preffer the bloodless democratic approach than dumb violence.

You can have a civil discourse on the matter without ever fire-bombing those who do not believe in your cause

*yes, I am aware of the retardities of the fringe group known as the FLQ in 1970. But they ran out of steam quickly
-------------------

My experience with separatist parties is thus: Lots of threats, no separation. In Canada, the Bloc Quebecous, ostensible separatists, are more interested in solidifying their control of Quebec's politcs and drawing a (comparatively) disproportionate amount of capital from Ottawa, than they are in actually creating a separate country.

The Bloc in the Federal has no power and can't do anything about it.

Only in the Provincial Goverment can it ever happen. Jean Charest is a federalist and has a 4 year Majority ahead of him. So...
-----------------------------

If this happens, it's only a matter of time before China, Canada, and the United States split up into various countries.

As far as Canada goes, not bloody likely.

The longer time passes, the more of a melting-pot Canada becomes and the lines between differeing cultures get blurred out. Plus with the rapid growth in demographics concerning minorities... the old stock white folks is shrinking at a similar rate as the US.
More ethnic minorities grow, more centrist Liberal voters pro-Canada you get.

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

Vive la difference!

I'm all for a rollback of centralized governance and finance, especially if it means that smaller cultures can thrive again. My biggest disappointment visiting the UK after a 14 year hiatus was just how North American it had become.

huh?

 

[vas_a_morir]

They fight back.

That's right. I always wonder how English people feel about America? We are connected by blood, language, and culture, you know.

 

[jamieson87]

Being from Scotland I really do not see the benefits of being an independent nation.

We are much stronger as part of the union. We no longer have our banks to rely on, such a shame we have lost them. What would have happened to them if we were independent?

Alex Salmond used Iceland as an example to how a small independent nation can prosper, hmmmmm not so much.

 

[Label]

I <3 Scotland, they are the bringers of:

 

[Windu]

FREEEEEEDOOOOMM!!

 

[Walshicus]

Why? What makes smaller states be more peaceful?

It's not a matter of "peaceful", which is why I didn't say that.

There was [and still is] a certain kind of mentality in King Charles Street and Number 10 that is a result of Britain's reduced standing in the world. We're too small to be a major power and too large to be a minor player - combine with the Imperial past and there is an expectation for Britain to punch well above its weight. Reducing us to England and Scotland [etc.] will force a significant rethink of policy direction among not only old guard politicians but also among the guard civil servants. You'll see a greater emphasis on internationalisation.

 

[jamieson87]

I <3 Scotland, they are the bringers of:

Don't forget -

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

No they don't.

The SNP are still Royalists - they would keep the Queen. They have also indicated a preference for establishing closer [treatied] ties with England etc. even post devolution. And on top of that they still mostly support the EU where English MEPs would have a voice in Scotland etc.

That's like saying Ireland is completely separate from the UK which is also untrue - there are so many reciprocal established arrangements that make the distinction between British and Irish citizenry marginal when compared to even other EU nations.


That said as an Englishman, of course I support the dissolution of the UK. The UK is obsolete and it's end will help foster in the end of multinational states in favour of regional confederation. It will be hard for Madrid to keep fighting Basque and Catalonia or Paris keeping hold of Corsica etc. when Scotland is separate.

By reducing to England and Scotland and Wales, you'll see the 'velocity' and legitimacy of effective legislation increase. In addition by reducing the psychology size of the states you'll see a more humble and concilliatory foreign policy and a greater emphasise on international collaboration.

Furthermore by making England and Scotland financially separate, you'll start seeing supply-side policies better targetted to each economy.

In summary, bring it on. As someone who loves England *and* Scotland, separation is the way forward.

To be one tiny small country amongst a massive behemoth is a negative thing in my opinion because many people who currently feel a shared sense of identity and history with the UK would feel powerless and without a voice (this is more the case in England than any other place).

I've always felt that as an individual I have no voice but as a bigger union we have a platform to express our opinions to the world. Britain and the UK is a part of my culture and to take it away would shatter an already shaky sense of nationalistic identity.

The name Britain means more to me than England does, in fact I'd go as far as to say that I don't associate myself with 'England' at all.

 

[jamieson87]

To be one tiny small country amongst a massive behemoth is a negative thing in my opinion because many people who currently feel a shared sense of identity and history with the UK would feel powerless and without a voice (this is more the case in England than any other place).

I've always felt that as an individual I have no voice but as a bigger union we have a platform to express our opinions to the world. Britain and the UK is a part of my culture and to take it away would shatter an already shaky sense of nationalistic identity.

The name Britain means more to me than England does, in fact I'd go as far as to say that I don't associate myself with 'England' at all.

Nice post

 

[Walshicus]

Being from Scotland I really do not see the benefits of being an independent nation.

We are much stronger as part of the union. We no longer have our banks to rely on, such a shame we have lost them. What would have happened to them if we were independent?

Alex Salmond used Iceland as an example to how a small independent nation can prosper, hmmmmm not so much.

Yeah, but that's a false comparison. Iceland crapped out because it went off the rails. If the UK had adopted the same policies we'd have suffered to the same extent. Bad governance and regulation are not necessarily coterminous with country size.

You'd gain a lot from independence. Greater control over national policy, the ability to set a fiscal and supply side policy tailored to Scottish socio-economic conditions, a bigger voice in Europe...

What would you lose? I can't think of anything. Free movement of goods, capital and labour is assured by EU treaty, so... what's missing? It's not like there will be border posts erected. It's not like you wouldn't be able to visit your grandmother in Wales or whatever. It's not like the loss of revenue from Westminster wouldn't be compensated by the gain in North Sea oil revenue and the long term growth afforded by aforementioned increased economic maneuverability.

I just can't see what you think makes the Union worthwhile, given the utility that the EU also provides.

To be one tiny small country amongst a massive behemoth is a negative thing in my opinion because many people who currently feel a shared sense of identity and history with the UK would feel powerless and without a voice (this is more the case in England than any other place).

I've always felt that as an individual I have no voice but as a bigger union we have a platform to express our opinions to the world. Britain and the UK is a part of my culture and to take it away would shatter an already shaky sense of nationalistic identity.

The name Britain means more to me than England does, in fact I'd go as far as to say that I don't associate myself with 'England' at all.

I disagree. I hate Britain and I hate the 'British' - but yet love England, Scotland and Wales.

Britain is a symbol of the 19th century fallacy of the 'nation'-state, along with France, Spain and Yugoslavia among others; states which lumped artificial nationalities on us. This is the 21st century and my government is too distant to me. Britain is obsolete, it's usefulness gone and the only reason to adher to it a perverted sentimentality born of the success of the nation-myth.

 

[John_B]

I believe in unity. It's the most effective prevention against war.

Nothing costs more money, resources and lives than war. It's the lowest point a nation can reach.

 

[Nerevar]

Why should UK give up territories they've rightfully conquered?

You do realize the final "union" of England and Scotland occurred when the Scottish king James VI was given the English crown (and subsequently became James I of England), right?

(I know there were still two parliaments, but still).

 

[Always-honest]

all the best to the lovely scottish people. love you and you're country

Spoiler

learn to cook properly though goddammit...... there is more to eat than just sheep-gut

 

[bonesmccoy]

The Bloc in the Federal has no power and can't do anything about it.

I know, I was referring to the practical aims of the BQ, not their ability to manifest any kind of authority in Ottawa (although the 'Coalition' would have stupidly given them some) that would lead to Quebec's separation. The Parti Quebecois are those dudes -remeber Parizeau's infamous comment that the 'ethnics' ruined Quebec's chance?

And my comment about the 'North American' feeling I got when I visited the UK was about the affects of cultural seapage via film, television, advertizing etc.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

They can't possibly survive being independant

Spoiler

with a parliament building that buttfuck ugly.

 

[avaya]

The whole SNP situation is so overblown, bordering on the ridiculous.

 

[jamieson87]

They can't possibly survive being independant

Spoiler

with a parliament building that buttfuck ugly.

Oh well, at least it is situated in one of the most beautiful citys in the world.

 

[-COOLIO-]

seriously, what's the point? the world needs less borders, not more.

 

[Yixian]

In addition by reducing the psychology size of the states you'll see a more humble and concilliatory foreign policy and a greater emphasise on international collaboration.

Exactly, smaller states keep each other in check. There would have been no Vietnam if the US was as geopolitically differentiated as Europe.

 

[Walshicus]

Oh well, at least it is situated in one of the most beautiful citys in the world.

Go into the "haggis shop" just outside the entrance to the castle grounds - they sell Jalepeno jelly beans there. Weird.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

I disagree. I hate Britain and I hate the 'British' - but yet love England, Scotland and Wales.

Britain is a symbol of the 19th century fallacy of the 'nation'-state, along with France, Spain and Yugoslavia among others; states which lumped artificial nationalities on us. This is the 21st century and my government is too distant to me. Britain is obsolete, it's usefulness gone and the only reason to adher to it a perverted sentimentality born of the success of the nation-myth.

I know I don't matter in the grand scheme of things but if the UK goes then a lot of other things go with it too including my attachment to this unremarkable landmass.

I only see 'England' existing in name only after the UK goes because we have no culture or identity separate from Britain anymore. I can't see any sort of future for this country to be quite honest and I don't think I'd be able to live in a place I don't identify myself with.

 

[gutter_trash]

I know, I was referring to the practical aims of the BQ, not their ability to manifest any kind of authority in Ottawa (although the 'Coalition' would have stupidly given them some) that would lead to Quebec's separation. The Parti Quebecois are those dudes -remeber Parizeau's infamous comment that the 'ethnics' ruined Quebec's chance?

And my comment about the 'North American' feeling I got when I visited the UK was about the affects of cultural seapage via film, television, advertizing etc.

as a NO voter myself and a ''ethnic'' according to Parizeau: I was really really happy when he came out (while drunk) and made his ethnic comment. I loved it because his honensty came out and proved me right for voting NO.

Thankfully, Charest is there for 4 more years, so no more referendums for a long long time

 

[Yixian]

Oh well, at least it is situated in one of the most beautiful citys in the world.

Edinburgh would be a top class capital.

But your attitudes aren't very hibernian Seriously, you guys are capable enough to manage yourselves. Does Westminster really have a right to say thus far shalt thou go and no further?

 

[Walshicus]

I know I don't matter in the grand scheme of things but if the UK goes then a lot of other things go with it too including my attachment to this unremarkable landmass.

I only see 'England' existing in name only after the UK goes because we have no culture or identity separate from Britain anymore. I can't see any sort of future for this country to be quite honest and I don't think I'd be able to live in a place I don't identify myself with.

I don't think there *is* a British culture, so I can't agree with that. What you see as British culture is more than likely just English culture.

I don't know, I just think you've got a sentimental attachment to an idea that ultimately doesn't mean anything. Politically, historically and socially there are clear lines of delineation between England and Scotland, and while we may have more in common between us than say, Poland - we're talking on par with Germany/Austria/Leichtenstein or Sweden/Norway/Denmark.

I'm genuinely weirded out that you actually have an attachment to the UK that is greater than your attachment to your country. You are literally the only English person I've come across who can't identify with England.

 

[Yixian]

I mean, when people from outside the UK think of the term "British" they think exclusively of the English. I don't understand how the Scots have put up with such complete cultural submission for so long.. I mean, Scotland has such a rich and unique cultural identity.

Don't even get me started on the Welsh.

The only benefit to nation mash-ups like the UK is to consolidate power and project it internationally. The era of British power projection is over, there is no need for the union, each country would benefit from independence, not to mention individual parliaments for the separate nations would be inherently more democratic and beneficial to their respective economies and specific needs.

I can see tourism in Scotland particularly benefiting from independence, and any sensible Scottish economist must seriously resent the English keeping them out of the Eurozone.

don't know, I just think you've got a sentimental attachment to an idea that ultimately doesn't mean anything. Politically, historically and socially there are clear lines of delineation between England and Scotland, and while we may have more in common between us than say, Poland - we're talking on par with Germany/Austria/Leichtenstein or Sweden/Norway/Denmark.

Apart from language I'd argue more than Sweden/Norway/Denmark. More like Sweden/Finland. The heritage of the two nations could not be more distinct.

 

[Great Rumbler]

They fight back.

The US wasn't "rightfully conquered", though. It was territory controlled by natives that go overrun by a lot of Brits.

 

[Yixian]

I just can't see what you think makes the Union worthwhile

Any pretense of empire, that's what.

Never underestimate the idiocy of unionists, all they really care about is maintaining some sense of cultural/ethnic domination over their neighbors.

 

[besada]

I mean, when people from outside the UK think of the term "British" they think exclusively of the English.

I think of the English, the Scots, the Welsh, and N. Ireland.

I do find it weird that the UK is a union within a union, though. It seems if all of the constituent parts were to belong to the EU, Scotland, Wales, and N. Ireland would actually have more say on the world stage as equal members of the EU as opposed to client members via the UK.

But I'm a filthy American, so my opinion doesn't really count.

 

[Yixian]

I think of the English, the Scots, the Welsh, and N. Ireland.

I do find it weird that the UK is a union within a union, though. It seems if all of the constituent parts were to belong to the EU, Scotland, Wales, and N. Ireland would actually have more say on the world stage as equal members of the EU as opposed to client members via the UK.

But I'm a filthy American, so my opinion doesn't really count.

Well ofc NI is an abberation of history and should reunite with the rest of Ireland. At present politics doesn't exist in Northern Ireland, you just vote for your side of the war not which party you actually agree with and with a coalition government between the nationalists and unionists, some of whom refuse to even talk to each other, barely anything gets done. Also, both sides of the border would benefit economically from reunion, particularly on the issue of a single currency.

Scottish independence seems like a later rather than sooner affair, but it's hard to imagine it not happening eventually.

Wales.. is in no hurry for independence tbh.

In terms of foreign affairs, Westminster has total control over all of them, so yes they'd all have more say in international affairs as individual nations.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

England and Scotland are not that separate. You can't be physically part of the same landmass and not share some culture and identity. I mean, people are proud to be Scottish aren't they? They still know all about Scottish culture and tradition so I don't agree there is any cultural submission.

If anything it is England that has lost it's identity and culture as a result of being a part of Britain. Think about it for a moment, what do we have that is ours? Morris dancing and fish and chips? That's fucking depressing.

When English people think of England they think of all the things we've done as Britain, not as England. That's what they identify with. The problem is that they confuse England for Britain most of the time.

Scottish people live there lives in England, the same as English people do in Scotland. To say that we're culturally separate is just wrong.

Also, 'the English' as a people do not keep Scotland from anything. You know that government populated by people from all over Britain and headed by a one-eyed Scottish wanker? Those are the guys that keep things from Scotland.

Any pretense of empire, that's what.

Never underestimate the idiocy of unionists, all they really care about is maintaining some sense of cultural/ethnic domination over their neighbors.

I fucking hate this 'us versus them' attitude that the Scottish have against the English. It's the worst part of Scottish culture that exists.

 

[Yixian]

More GDP is spent per head on an Englishman than a Scott. Scotland's foreign affairs are dictated from Westminster. Scottish natural resources like North Sea Oil are taken by the English...

Scotland gets the raw end of the deal there's no doubt about that tbh.

It's bad enough living in the North of England in a country where the focus is almost entirely upon the capital. Things have been a little better in recent years but it's still incredibly unbalanced.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

More GDP is spent per head on an Englishman than a Scott. Scotland's foreign affairs are dictated from Westminster. Scottish natural resources like North Sea Oil are taken by the English...

Scotland gets the raw end of the deal there's no doubt about that tbh.

The English, the english, the english.

Fuck off. Direct your protests against the government and not at the people then you might actually fucking get somewhere.

 

[MrPing1000]

Well ofc NI is an abberation of history and should reunite with the rest of Ireland. At present politics doesn't exist in Northern Ireland, you just vote for your side of the war not which party you actually agree with and with a coalition government between the nationalists and unionists, some of whom refuse to even talk to each other, barely anything gets done. Also, both sides of the border would benefit economically from reunion, particularly on the issue of a single currency.

Seriously I am not using the Euro, it's my sole reason for opposing a united Ireland, that and how the rest of the UK is basically propping us up to a higher standard of living that we deserve, thanks mainland.

If Scotland ever did become independent it could be pretty inflammatory in NI, unionists would be jittery.

 

[Yixian]

The English, the english, the english.

Fuck off. Direct your protests against the government and not at the people then you might actually fucking get somewhere.

Chill dude, that's what I mean >_> The English public seem to want an end to the UK as much as anyone.

Seriously I am not using the Euro, it's my sole reason for opposing a united Ireland, that and how the rest of the UK is basically propping us up to a higher standard of living that we deserve, thanks mainland.

UK is rated 21st in the human development index.

Ireland 5th.

Fancy raising your standard of living even more? Unite with the south and join the euro. Job done.

A city like Belfast deserves better than being shoved to the side by London.