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[A Black Falcon]

The "choice of playing it that way" is actually the default mode, the one expected by the creator of the game. You can decide your own rules that goes against the core of the game, but you can't expect the game to go along and let you do whatever without protesting.

What? No, the point of an arcade game is to not only get you to put one quarter in, but to have you keep putting money into the machine. The goal is for the manufacturer to make money. I've read before about how arcade game developers had to make their games harder when the quarter drop rates weren't high enough, sort of like the monetization of freemium games today. You don't want it to be so frustrating that people don't play the game at all, so it needs to be balanced well, but that's what things like location tests are for -- not just to see if people like the game, but to balanace the difficulty, continue system, etc. to get the coin-drop rate where it needs to be to make money. If someone only put ONE quarter into an arcade machine, that would be a failure for the manufacturer. It's a very different mindset from console game development of the time.

No, the 'default way' is for you to keep trying as long as you want to and still have more money, not for you to be artificially stopped at some point by a 'start the game over now' wall as many console ports of the games add in. Of course those limits make sense, they were trying to make it take longer for people to beat these very short games which they had spent $50 or what have you for, but it IS going against the original intent of the game.

Now, many early (pre-NES) arcade games don't let you continue, but the console versions are the same, that's how games of that era work. Later arcade games often do.

Let's define an arcade game a bit, shall we? It's a game in which you put a coin in, get as far as you can and get a (high) score. That's it. The whole idea is gauging the player skill and give it a numerical value in the form of the score. You can put in another coin if you want to try to see more of the game, but even this isn't a given, as many game put you back to the beginning of the stage so a bad enough player with an infinite amount of coins can't see more of the game. Also notice how the score resets when you continue? That's because continuing is not part of the game, part of the intended experience; it's a gift to the player, but as any gift, shouldn't be expected. And again, if you're not good enough, an infinite amount of credits will get you nowhere.

You are quite wrong here. Continues aren't a gift, they are a strategy used to convince teh player to put another quarter in. That countdown timer on the continue screen, as you try to reach into your pocket and put a coin in before Game Over comes up... that's a money-making strategy. Without continues people would play the game less (without that incentive to put a coin in NOW, you might not!), the game would make less money, and it might not be financially successful. Continues are a vitally important part of the game, and many games probably would not exist without them, because that kind of game wouldn't make enough money without the incentive of 'Put a coin in now or you'll have to start over!'

So while you have some points here, you're missing the main one.

Oh, and the score resets in most (but not all!) arcade games so that the high score tables are made fair, all based on the same baseline. That's got nothing to do with the continue system, you are supposed to continue in arcade games that have continues. Getting a really good score is reserved for people who have spent a LOT of money on the game practicing it and are good at it. It's a reward for your time and money. Next time you put a quarter in maybe you can get even more points!

I think one of the issues some people have with home arcade ports is that the ability to continue is artificially locked behind a finite number of credits, whereas the arcade was based on a pay-to-play model. Porting the game as closely as possible would theoretically allow for an unlimited amount of credits or free play. (Me being broke, and not having more than a few bucks to play the arcade, should be part of the meta-game, not the core experience.) Instituting a finite of credits on top of an established design, changes the game design, whether it's wiling to be acknowledged or not in this thread. I suppose it's one of the major drawbacks of the medium-shift from arcade to console.

Yeah, you are right here. The two formats are fundamentally different because of the difference in how you pay for games. The problem with home ports of arcade games is that you couldn't replicate that payment system, so people had to pay a LOT more for games -- so they eventually expected more for their money than most arcade games had for content. Things like continue limits exist to add "value" to the game, by making the game harder to finish. That is understandable at a time when you're spending $30 or $50 or what have you for the game, but it's not the original intent; that continue limit is just an addition to justify that price compared to the 25 cents or so that the arcade game would have cost per play.

Don't get me wrong, as I love arcade-game design, but it could be argued that there are more parallels between it and mobile phone game design, in this regard.

This is absolutely right, yes. Arcade and mobile/freemium gaming have a LOT in common.

Games that employ a 'practice mode' or feature to non-linear level-select (think Elemental Master for Mega Drive) provide a solid solution to players by allowing them to access more of the game's content without be punished by not being good enough.

Yeah, adding stuff to arcade ports is great, it's a good way of adding more to the game to give the game more value. There are many good examples -- the Original mode in Genesis MERCS, "B.C." mode in Sidearms Special for the PC Engine CD, time attack, training, and survival modes that console ports of fighting games usually add, etc etc.

I shudder to think of all the unplayed content in the 8/16-bit era, just because I wasn't good enough to pass some of the levels.

Heh... yeah, I'm sure everyone had lots of stuff like that, except for the very best gamers of course.

 

[Timu]

...Yeah I'm playing arcade games again after this convo. I did manage to 1CC a game earlier this year.

 

[Mzo]

Sonic R controls like hot garbage.

 

[Timu]

Sonic R controls like hot garbage.

Yeah that's true...they should had improved on that.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

A good action game requires tension and a real threat associated with failure. That threat can basically only come from taking one of two things away from you: your money or your time.

An arcade game can demand more quarters from you, fulfilling the first requirement. "The wager" ("I can beat this game / get the high score / defeat my opponent with 1 credit") is a fundamental aspect of arcade gaming and, imo, not necessarily detrimental.

A console port can limit your continues and demand a restart, fulfilling the second requirement.

Success is meaningless if failure carries no consequence. Simple as that.

I'm not going to waste my time directly arguing with anyone who seriously compares arcade games to freemium, pay-to-win mobile games.

 

[MikeMyers]

I see people shitting on arcade titles length, but I personally love it. As someone who has a job and attends University, I don't really have the time for long games. I love how I can play Virtua Cop for a hour, get my fix, and move on.

Be patient, it doesn't show up often but it can be found a lot cheaper than that.

Is this the import version? Is a lot cheaper, unless its something I would need to know Japanese to play.

I have Tomb Raider for PSX. I wouldn't learn it originally started on the Saturn until later.

huh....it's not often i see Sonic R endorsed for something beyond its soundtrack

Yeah, it looks and sounds great, but have heard horror stories about the controls.

 

[Tain]

A good action game requires tension and a real threat associated with failure. That threat can basically only come from taking one of two things away from you: your money or your time.

An arcade game can demand more quarters from you, fulfilling the first requirement. "The wager" is a fundamental aspect of arcade gaming and, imo, not necessarily detrimental.

A console port can limit your continues and demand a restart, fulfilling the second requirement.

Success is meaningless if failure carries no consequence. Simple as that.

I'm not going to waste my time directly arguing with anyone who seriously compares arcade games to freemium, pay-to-win mobile games.

yuuuup

But while we're on the topic of handling home ports: Ikaruga's XBLA port handled this wonderfully by having continues disabled by default.

Some games have difficulty settings. We can recognize that those difficulty settings are "separate", to an extent, from the core game. We understand that it's buffoonish to play a game on Easy and be upset at it being easy. The effect of using continues on game design works much in the same way: continues are in some way a crude, after-the-fact difficulty option that has the upside of earning operators more money (causing operators to want it in every game starting in the mid-late 80s). This isn't as widely understood, though, as made obvious by the number of Western forumites that act as though clearing an arcade game without using continues is wholly unreasonable and only for the absolute best of the best players.

By sticking a big fat switch that enables/disables continuing in the options menu, and by defaulting it to "OFF", you're sending a clear message that yes, this game was balanced around not continuing, and yes, we expect people to clear it that way with enough practice.

Limiting continues kiiind of communicates this, but I feel that the on/off switch (that's already present on most arcade PCBs!) is a better way to keep a port "accurate".

 

[D.Lo]

A good action game requires tension and a real threat associated with failure. That threat can basically only come from taking one of two things away from you: your money or your time.

An arcade game can demand more quarters from you, fulfilling the first requirement. "The wager" is a fundamental aspect of arcade gaming and, imo, not necessarily detrimental.

A console port can limit your continues and demand a restart, fulfilling the second requirement.

Success is meaningless if failure carries no consequence. Simple as that.

I'm not going to waste my time directly arguing with anyone who seriously compares arcade games to freemium, pay-to-win mobile games.

Nailed it.

The point of such games is the game itself being a challenge.

Something changed sometime in the last 10 years, developers made games that encourage the attitude 'I want to see this game' instead of 'I want to beat this game'. This occurred primarily because many single player game developers decided they are interactive movie directors instead of game designers.

Competitive multiplayer scratches some of the itch for challenge, but a well designed challenging single player game is something different.

 

[Splash Wave]

A good action game requires tension and a real threat associated with failure. That threat can basically only come from taking one of two things away from you: your money or your time.

An arcade game can demand more quarters from you, fulfilling the first requirement. "The wager" is a fundamental aspect of arcade gaming and, imo, not necessarily detrimental.

A console port can limit your continues and demand a restart, fulfilling the second requirement.

Success is meaningless if failure carries no consequence. Simple as that.

I'm not going to waste my time directly arguing with anyone who seriously compares arcade games to freemium, pay-to-win mobile games.

Brilliantly put!

 

[IrishNinja]

A good action game requires tension and a real threat associated with failure. That threat can basically only come from taking one of two things away from you: your money or your time.

An arcade game can demand more quarters from you, fulfilling the first requirement. "The wager" is a fundamental aspect of arcade gaming and, imo, not necessarily detrimental.

A console port can limit your continues and demand a restart, fulfilling the second requirement.

Success is meaningless if failure carries no consequence. Simple as that.

I'm not going to waste my time directly arguing with anyone who seriously compares arcade games to freemium, pay-to-win mobile games.

...damn
way better & more succinct than i manged. 645 is that dude.

 

[Teknoman]

Success is meaningless if failure carries no consequence.

Quote of 2015.

 

[A Black Falcon]

A good action game requires tension and a real threat associated with failure. That threat can basically only come from taking one of two things away from you: your money or your time.

An arcade game can demand more quarters from you, fulfilling the first requirement. "The wager" is a fundamental aspect of arcade gaming and, imo, not necessarily detrimental.

Sure. But the game itself has no hard barrier on continues, which is absolutely key. Whether you have more money on you or not isn't something programmed into the game.

A console port can limit your continues and demand a restart, fulfilling the second requirement.

Making you restart the level and go back to the beginning does that too, though. Why force a restart of the wholegame? As I said, I have no problem with ports of arcade shmups only having high-score save and a level select but not a progress save, or platformers letting you save between levels but not having save anywhere, and such. That's all fine. I'm quite fine with save anywhere too of course, but not every game needs it.

I just hate having to restart the whole game over from the beginning because of artificial design elements tossed in to some home port in order to keep people playing longer so they think that they spent their money wisely. Those limited continues aren't there just to make the game harder, they're there to convince you that you didn't waste your money! It's an artificial thing that wasn't meant to be in the game and shouldn't be there.

Success is meaningless if failure carries no consequence. Simple as that.

This is a good point worth some thought. I agree with the general idea here, just disagree on the details of how much 'consequence' is required.

Being sent back to the beginning of a level often is a punishment, though. I've said repeatedly that I'm quite fine with games such as shmups or classic platformers doing that. Games with a level select or password from the beginning of the level you're at still require skill to beat! And just having save anywhere doesn't make a game easy either, of course. Most PC strategy games let you save anytime, and lots are very difficult and highly rewarding. The same is true for many RPGs. For a classic-style arcade game save anywhere makes the game easier and less rewarding, though, certainly...

But again, what kind of save system is best for a game depends on the kind of game it is. For a platformer, in a classic platformer like Mario, what I'd like the most is saving after each level, but not during them. Mid-level checkpoints are a good idea, but shouldn't be a permanent save unless you're making a game with save anywhere. And even then, only have autosaves between levels. But in a super-hard platformer like I Want to Be the Guy, you want a permanent save at every checkpoint. I like the Mario style of platformer much more for the most part, and never could get into IWTBTG or most other games like that, but I have liked a few of them (VVVVVV, They Bleed Pixels, Super Meat Boy...), and yeah, you want saving after every screen/checkpoint in those games for sure.

So yeah, basically my opinion here is a middle ground between 'I like games super hard and with no saving like a lot of classic games are' and 'I want autosaves every five steps like lots of modern games are'. I don't love either of those. For a longer game I want something in between which punishes you when you die (I like how Zelda OoT sends you back to the start of a dungeon when you die in one more than the kinder system in WW & TP which only ends you back to the door of the room you died in, for example, and classic platformers which send you back to the beginning of the level when you get game over), but don't make you restart the whole game when you get game over.

Of course there are games designed so that death punishes you so much you'd probably rather restart than continue, but that's okay sometimes. I really, really love Gradius remember, harsh continue system or no; most of my favorite shmups are Gradius games. As I said before shmups are fine with a level-select and high-score-only save system, unless it's a longer game like Raptor or Tyrian or something.

Oh, and for modern games, I know why constant autosaves have supplanted save anywhere -- it's easier for people because they don't have to remember to save, you won't have people losing lots of progress because they forgot to save, etc -- but I like save anywhere more, myself. It requires more user thought, but it's the better system.

I'm not going to waste my time directly arguing with anyone who seriously compares arcade games to freemium, pay-to-win mobile games.

Why? It's not a comparison I made first, or first saw in this thread. I just agree with it because the basic financial concept is very similar -- both are games where the point is to make you keep spending money on the game at a steady rate. The game makes money by getting small charges during play. MMOs with subscription fees are similar just on a longer time-scale, since they need to keep you playing so you keep paying. Now, as far as gameplay goes arcade games and mobile games are quite different, the former often are great games while the latter are mostly awful exploitative stuff, but the core concept of making a game that people steadily put money into is the same.

The fundamental difference between those kinds of design and a traditional console or PC game is, of course, that in a console or PC game, once you have paid, that's it, the developer doesn't need you to keep giving them money. Sure, they want you to like the game enough to buy expansions, sequels, other games from them, and what have you, but that's different from games which want your money on a regular basis as you play the game. Of course microtransactions have changed this, but the basic concept is still there.

I see people shitting on arcade titles length, but I personally love it. As someone who has a job and attends University, I don't really have the time for long games. I love how I can play Virtua Cop for a hour, get my fix, and move on.

I'm mostly criticizing arcade game length from the standpoint of people who spent full price for the console ports of those games and wanted more than an hour out of that money. If, today, I get some arcade port for cheap and play it for an hour, sure, that might well be worth it. I agree, Virtua Cop is a pretty fun game, I like it for sure.

 

[Teknoman]

I do agree that any arcade port should received a substantial amount of extra content, or like Mercs for the Genesis, have an arcade mode and then a totally console exclusive original mode that adds onto the core gameplay (varied stage layouts, new gameplay systems, etc).

 

[IrishNinja]

wait, is it

only one hour of content

or

much content can't be reached because difficulty/limited continues

 

[MikeMyers]

Is this the import version? Is a lot cheaper, unless its something I would need to know Japanese to play..

Anyone know if this is Powerslave?

I'm actually amazed the Saturn even got the Lobotomy FPS trilogy, given the system's poor performance in the West.

 

[Celine]

Anyone know if this is Powerslave?

I'm actually amazed the Saturn even got the Lobotomy FPS trilogy, given the system's poor performance in the West.

It is.

 

[MikeMyers]

Thank you sir.

Might need to get a light gun for VC too.

EDIT: Found a deal for a Japanese Sega Light Gun. Surely it would work on a US console just fine, right?

 

[sixteen-bit]

Thank you sir.

Might need to get a light gun for VC too.

EDIT: Found a deal for a Japanese Sega Light Gun. Surely it would work on a US console just fine, right?

Yeah, it'll work unlike the Dreamcast scenario

 

[Khaz]

Thank you sir.

Might need to get a light gun for VC too.

EDIT: Found a deal for a Japanese Sega Light Gun. Surely it would work on a US console just fine, right?

Japanese Virtua Guns are so slick in all black. Just don't go outside with it in America.
I have one black, and the European blue one. I just need the American orange to complete the trilogy and pretend I'm playing on the real cab.

 

[KC-Slater]

A good action game requires tension and a real threat associated with failure. That threat can basically only come from taking one of two things away from you: your money or your time.

An arcade game can demand more quarters from you, fulfilling the first requirement. "The wager" ("I can beat this game / get the high score / defeat my opponent with 1 credit") is a fundamental aspect of arcade gaming and, imo, not necessarily detrimental.

A console port can limit your continues and demand a restart, fulfilling the second requirement.

Success is meaningless if failure carries no consequence. Simple as that.

I'm not going to waste my time directly arguing with anyone who seriously compares arcade games to freemium, pay-to-win mobile games.

Your raise a very solid point, and I agree with your perspective; there is a need for consequence to fuel the sensation of failure, within the game.

Your argument begins to unravel, however, when you address console ports. You can't just change one aspect of an arcade games' design (limiting credits) without changing any other aspect of the game's design. You're fundamentally breaking it. Arcade games were designed with a specific purpose and environment in mind, just as console developed games are. This is the epitome of the phrase, "the medium is the message" in its truest sense. Sure, there are console games that have appropriated arcade tropes, and vice versa, but arcade games always have recurring monetization built in to their inherent game design, this is why they exist; to publicly entertain for short periods of time in exchange for money.

This is a fantastic discussion, and I'm really enjoying following it.

 

[Khaz]

If we were following your point to it's logical conclusion however, we should never have any arcade ports on consoles. The simple act of porting a game that run on credits on a machine that doesn't accept credits would instantly break its design.

It's interesting to have this discussion on a beat them up however. No one would ever question the idea of starting back from the beginning when playing a port of Space invaders or Pac Man. The player plays to have fun and gauge his ability on said game, with a high score to prove it. With games growing more complex and having stages visually different, Cabinet makers introduced the Continues to get more money from the greedy player who wants to try again and train right where he lost, or try to see more of the game. The concept of Continues may have been a cash grab, but the initial concept is still here: insert a coin and get as far as you can. The monetisation was already there in the beginning and didn't need Continues.

Now ask yourself: how much do you spend in Continues when playing In an arcade? That's how many Continues you want in your console port. I don't have an infinite wallet, I don't want infinite Continues. In my opinion, having three or four Continues in an arcade port is plenty enough to recreate the experience of the arcade at home.

[edit] edited out a point about arcade and mobile games. That comparison is irrelevant.

 

[KC-Slater]

If we were following your point to it's logical conclusion however, we should never have any arcade ports on consoles. The simple act of porting a game that run on credits on a machine that doesn't accept credits would instantly break its design.

I said in an earlier post that having the game on 'free play' would make more sense, leaving it up to the player's discretion. 1CC is the meta game.

Now ask yourself: how much do you spend in Continues when playing In an arcade? That's how many Continues you want in your console port. I don't have an infinite wallet, I don't want infinite Continues. In my opinion, having three or four Continues in an arcade port is plenty enough to recreate the experience of the arcade at home.

To play devil's advocate, by your logic, the arcade you are entering is only allowing you to spend a finite amount of money. 'Free play' is an actual setting a benevolent arcade owner may choose to set the game too, however. Lol.

This discussion illustrates that there isn't a clear solution that would please everyone. Given the options, however, I think it makes more sense to allow unlimited credits or 'free play' in console ports than slap on an arbitrary limit. Players can set their own meta game, or devs can supplement this achievements.

 

[Morfeo]

Nailed it.

The point of such games is the game itself being a challenge.

Something changed sometime in the last 10 years, developers made games that encourage the attitude 'I want to see this game' instead of 'I want to beat this game'. This occurred primarily because many single player game developers decided they are interactive movie directors instead of game designers.

Competitive multiplayer scratches some of the itch for challenge, but a well designed challenging single player game is something different.

Great post, I definitely agree with this. At least the Souls-games proves there is still a market for old-school sensibilities in modern gaming.

 

[IrishNinja]

If we were following your point to it's logical conclusion however, we should never have any arcade ports on consoles. The simple act of porting a game that run on credits on a machine that doesn't accept credits would instantly break its design.

exactly - KC's point on free play doesn't really get around this, either. something is inherently lost without that financial transaction, nevermind the entire spectacle of the arcade itself. without getting into some ship of theseus shit here: a port should do its best to remain as faithful as possible, i think we all agree on that.

Now ask yourself: how much do you spend in Continues when playing In an arcade? That's how many Continues you want in your console port. I don't have an infinite wallet, I don't want infinite Continues. In my opinion, having three or four Continues in an arcade port is plenty enough to recreate the experience of the arcade at home.

this here is the crux of this mini-argument, for me - i the years ive spent in arcades, with the exception of fighters and like genres where you can keep going for great periods of time, most seem to spend about that much on a game before moving on to the next. the hardcore that seem truly focused on a game are the ones practicing at it to get high scores & such - in this regard, the spirit of these arcades is often carried for me by having a low set of continues.

I said in an earlier post that having the game on 'free play' would make more sense, leaving it up to the player's discretion. 1CC is the meta game.

To play devil's advocate, by your logic, the arcade you are entering is only allowing you to spend a finite amount of money. 'Free play' is an actual setting a benevolent arcade owner may choose to set the game too, however. Lol.

This discussion illustrates that there isn't a clear solution that would please everyone. Given the options, however, I think it makes more sense to allow unlimited credits or 'free play' in console ports than slap on an arbitrary limit. Players can set their own meta game, or devs can supplement this achievements.

ehh i'll diverge here on a few personal fronts:

1) the only time ive ever seen games on free play were at a gaming museum thing, or arcade/coin-op owners personally letting me play stuff on off-hours. it's really not how arcade gaming goes down

2) people like to say these things as options are okay, but i tend to disagree: different games granted, but again, first-person mode in Twin Snakes, soul glitching (pre-patch) in Dark Souls, etc were entirely optional, but just having said options changed the dynamic of the game. this logic always strikes me as similar to the faulty line employed on wii threads here years back - why can't most titles just allow a standard controller option, even if they weren't built around such? the answer being that if a game's design need be bent around its original intent for a player, perhaps they should seek another experience altogether.

i appreciate that this impasse is a result of our simple disagreement on limited vs infinite continues being more "true" to an arcade experience, and am likewise enjoying this bit here as well.

 

[Timu]

Now ask yourself: how much do you spend in Continues when playing In an arcade? That's how many Continues you want in your console port. I don't have an infinite wallet, I don't want infinite Continues. In my opinion, having three or four Continues in an arcade port is plenty enough to recreate the experience of the arcade at home.

This...this is perfect, screw infinite continues...only a few like 3-4 should be the max. I wish most arcade ports gave you a limited amount of continues instead of usually infinite.

 

[piggychan]

Anyone know if this is Powerslave?

I'm actually amazed the Saturn even got the Lobotomy FPS trilogy, given the system's poor performance in the West.

an old thread from the Lobotomy guy Ezra

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352934

http://www.segasaturn.co.uk/beta/news/ezra-dreisbach-interview/

 

[MikeMyers]

Ah, nice read. A damn shame those titles didn't do well.

Actually, I think Saturn is the only console to get all three titles. Seems like the N64 is missing Powerslave and the PSX is missing Quake.

 

[MikeMyers]

Christmas Nights - import friendly or not?

I wanna use Sonic.

 

[Splash Wave]

Not that I have a lot to add to the continues discussion, but I feel like Layer Section does it right; having 4 continues is an adequate challenge that forces you to really learn the game, but it isn't so strict that it's discouraging.

How's Symphony of the Night on the Saturn? I know it has it's problems, but I've been struck with the desire to play it on the system after messing around with it on Vita this morning. I might keep my eye out for it today when I head to some shops in Tokyo.

 

[IrishNinja]

symphony is good, but you're trading some graphic effects which really isn't the main problem - the loading for the menus is jarring if you've played the better PSX one enough. i personally think it wouldn't be as big an issue if they'dve had one of the buttons access the map, but since you have to go into the menu to get at it, it's a pain.

the new areas are neat, and i dug em since id explored that castle to death before so much...they don't really add a ton to the game overall.

so if you can put up with loading times, i think it's worth it. it just might not be worth whatever it costs right now.

 

[Splash Wave]

symphony is good, but you're trading some graphic effects which really isn't the main problem - the loading for the menus is jarring if you've played the better PSX one enough. i personally think it wouldn't be as big an issue if they'dve had one of the buttons access the map, but since you have to go into the menu to get at it, it's a pain.

the new areas are neat, and i dug em since id explored that castle to death before so much...they don't really add a ton to the game overall.

so if you can put up with loading times, i think it's worth it. it just might not be worth whatever it costs right now.

I knew I'd have to make some compromises from everything I've heard, so I'll try not to pay too much for it if I can help it. I just think playing it on a Saturn would be extremely novel/weird.

 

[IrishNinja]

yeah, that's the right mentality - that's basically what i went in with, and i dug my time with it. weird that Bloodlines and Master of Darkness (haha) are the only CV's sega got

 

[Teknoman]

This...this is perfect, screw infinite continues...only a few like 3-4 should be the max. I wish most arcade ports gave you a limited amount of continues instead of usually infinite.

Limited is best for any game imo. Just running through a game on auto pilot sucks. Of course gaining continues shouldn't be a chore either.

 

[MikeMyers]

The button to open the disc drive feels a bit loose. :/

 

[Splash Wave]

Does Dungeons and Dragons Collection grant unlimited continues?

 

[D.Lo]

Nocturne on Saturn is not worth it for the price. I like it, and the extras are quirky, but is is the worse version, and costs as much as five to ten times more these days. You can grab the PS1 version for 2000 yen at any Book Off, and half that price if you look a bit harder, and Japanese PS1 is the ultimate version really.

Saturn version also has the cover art where Maria has downs syndrome and Alucard is played by Michael Jackson.

Mind you I think the game very very overrated anyway.

 

[IrishNinja]

respectfully disagree about the overrated part but i should read your thread nonetheless - still, why is JP PSX version superior?

 

[D.Lo]

respectfully disagree about the overrated part but i should read your thread nonetheless - still, why is JP PSX version superior?

Covered in the thread. Best cover and disc art, doesn't have the horrible English voice acting, doesn't have the performance and graphical issues of the Saturn version, PSP version is a blurry/scaled mess with broken sound effects.

 

[MikeMyers]

Saturn version also has the cover art...Alucard is played by Michael Jackson.

That sounds like a plus to me.

A shame there isn't a Saturn game associated with MJ. He made a comeback with Space Channel 5 though.

 

[gelf]

Limited is best for any game imo. Just running through a game on auto pilot sucks. Of course gaining continues shouldn't be a chore either.

If I was in charge of a port I'd be tempted to add in more ways to earn credits through gameplay, be those extra lives or score bonuses, whatever fits. Just something that makes getting extra more satisfying then just being given them from the start. It would have to balanced well of course.

I find it hard to restrain myself and set my own challenges so having it on freeplay stops me trying my best to git gud as I can just walk to the finish destroying a lot of the fun. Why risk getting to that health pickup if I just respawn next credit anyway. Forcing myself to restart the game when I lose x number of credits feels weird. I think free play should be hidden behind cheat menus or better yet unlocks.

 

[IrishNinja]

A shame there isn't a Saturn game associated with MJ. He made a comeback with Space Channel 5 though.

as a huge moonwalker fan (top 10 genesis game IMO) i strongly +1 this post

If I was in charge of a port I'd be tempted to add in more ways to earn credits through gameplay, be those extra lives or score bonuses, whatever fits. Just something that makes getting extra more satisfying then just being given them from the start. It would have to balanced well of course.

I find it hard to restrain myself and set my own challenges so having it on freeplay stops me trying my best to git gud as I can just walk to the finish destroying a lot of the fun. Why risk getting to that health pickup if I just respawn next credit anyway. Forcing myself to restart the game when I lose x number of credits feels weird. I think free play should be hidden behind cheat menus or better yet unlocks.

some really great points here, first paragraph kinda outlines mroe on staying true to the arcade feel/design too

 

[MikeMyers]

as a huge moonwalker fan (top 10 genesis game IMO) i strongly +1 this post

He truly was a die hard Sega fan:

 

[D.Lo]

Lol, I wonder if Sony gave him a free Dreamcast stand.

 

[Splash Wave]

I spent less than 5 bucks, which isn't too shabby for what I got!

 

[Celine]

Daytona CE isn't still a 100% faithful port (of course) but it's probably the Saturn game I had the most fun with.
It took me lots of retries to win each of the 5 courses on normal (and then beat the best time) and I cherished every seconds I spent on it.

That's why I don't understand this "arcade talk" nonsense.

 

[Celine]

I don't think that point is really up for contention; limiting the amount of continues is certainly not in line with the arcade's game original design, and is a pretty significant change. You can't just arbitrarily decide to suddenly limit how many credits a player should have to complete/progress throughout the game (especially with all other game design elements intact), just because crunching quarters is no longer a variable. This change significantly alters the inherent design of the game, even if it seems subtle. I'm not going to weigh in on whether or not the change is for better or worse (that's too subjective) but it's undeniable that it changes the game's design. Like I said before, quarters were the meta-game in the arcades, just as opting to try and 1CC the game at home is.

Arcade machines get the revenue from the coins inserted so of course they didn't put a limit on how much coins you can insert
Arcade managers would be happy even if you just put a bunch of credits inside a coin op and then walk away from the machine without even have played the game ;-)

However arcade's game original design is to challenge the player and let him improve his skill at the game with time (and more coins inserted).
The challenge and accomplished sense in beat the challenge (or the score meant as a fictional data that value your performance) is a stample of arcade's game design.
That's why I don't see limiting the number of credits in an arcade home port inherently as a mistake and neither did one of the biggest arcade vendor on the planet (SNK) when it introduced the home version of their popular arcade hardware.

That's why I don't understand who compare the arcade business with the F2P business (the challenge/skill balance is totally different).

 

[theSlacker]

Covered in the thread. Best cover and disc art, doesn't have the horrible English voice acting, doesn't have the performance and graphical issues of the Saturn version, PSP version is a blurry/scaled mess with broken sound effects.

Pls go.

 

[bjork]

I remember gamestop carrying Saturn imports, and when they blew them out, they were $4 new. I passed up stuff like SotN for $4 because I was buying used SNES games. I was kicking myself as I was doing it, still am now.

 

[sixteen-bit]

I remember gamestop carrying Saturn imports, and when they blew them out, they were $4 new. I passed up stuff like SotN for $4 because I was buying used SNES games. I was kicking myself as I was doing it, still am now.

SotN on Saturn is a crap port. You probably passed on it for a good reason. Sure it's worth a fair bit more now, but hindsight is always 20/20. I'm sure whatever SNES stuff you bought instead also appreciated as well if it's any consolation.

 

[bjork]

SotN on Saturn is a crap port. You probably passed on it for a good reason. Sure it's worth a fair bit more now, but hindsight is always 20/20. I'm sure whatever SNES stuff you bought instead also appreciated as well if it's any consolation.

Final Fantasy II in the box for $20. It was like some miracle day at the Gamestop and it just happened to come inbetween paydays, typically.