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Sen. Clinton Pushes for Voting Holiday

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missAran

Member
We need to encourage voting in every way we can. Clinton is looking MIGHTY fine for a presidential vote on my part in 2008. Oh yeah, letting ex-felons voting power is awesome (I think they should vote WHEN they are in chail or on death row).

As it stands now, people that work 9-5 shifts are too lazy to go in before or after work. Once again, the status quo screws the working man and allows the rich man to rule the day.
 
Space Age Playboy said:
Lots of people have been trying for years to get voting moved to Saturdays instead. I think that'd be better than giving everyone yet another day off from work. That would decrease productivity.


Well why don't we take away all of our holidiays since they are so detrimental to US productivity? Don't be foolish, don't you know how much money the ecomony takes in on holidays? Hell, the system creates holidays when they feel there isn't enough money pumping in the system. I mean who in the fuck celebrated Cinco de Mayo 15 years ago?

If anything they should move it to the first Monday or Friday of the week. Seemed to work for the Iraqis. The only people that would fear this would be the people who are in power. Go figure.
 

teiresias

Member
Clinton is looking MIGHTY fine for a presidential vote on my part in 2008.

I'm sorry, but as awesome as I think it would be to see her inaugurated as President it is in no way happening. It'd be foolish to even make her the nominee. If you want someone "extreme" (not saying she is, but just for example) do it the "Dean" way and get someone who doesn't carry all of the baggage she does and the particular irrational hatred from the right.

Though seeing the right-wingers cringe away at the sound of her name like vampires from garlic is highly amusing.
 

ToxicAdam

Member
I can't believe you people are aligning with this. We already have too many f'ing holiday.



THERE IS SOMETHING CALLED AN ABSENTEE BALLOT IF YOU HAVE TROUBLE VOTING.
 

Loki

Count of Concision
missAran said:
We need to encourage voting in every way we can. Clinton is looking MIGHTY fine for a presidential vote on my part in 2008. Oh yeah, letting ex-felons voting power is awesome (I think they should vote WHEN they are in chail or on death row).

In most (all?) states, felons who have served their time can vote once they're out of prison (as is proper). The bolded part, however, is just idiotic, frankly. "Hey, look at me, I'm a sociopath! Now where's my ballot?" Yeah-- real sound reasoning, that.


And it's "jail", with a "j".
 

ge-man

Member
ToxicAdam said:
I can't believe you people are aligning with this. We already have too many f'ing holiday.



THERE IS SOMETHING CALLED AN ABSENTEE BALLOT IF YOU HAVE TROUBLE VOTING.

That seems like a pain in the ass when compared to the this idea. Really, if voting is such an important feature of our country why isn't it important enough to have designated as a holiday to further minimizes excuses for not voting? Why should it be difficult?
 
sonarrat said:
Still, that's a fine idea once you unwrap it from the polemic implications. But what, exactly, is an ex-felon? I thought a felon was someone who had been convicted of a felony at some point in his life.
I guess yeah, once you've been a felon it's hard to uncommit the felony... but it is meant as felons who have done their time and are once again free citizens. Different states have different rules about if, when, and how these people can register to vote.

ToxicAdam said:
I can't believe you people are aligning with this. We already have too many f'ing holiday.
Just because some holidays are pointless doesn't mean we should ignore any that have an important purpose.

Loki said:
The bolded part, however, is just idiotic, frankly. "Hey, look at me, I'm a sociopath! Now where's my ballot?" Yeah-- real sound reasoning, that.
As long as they're citizens, I'd still be cool with them voting. Heck, they're probably more knowledgeable about our government than most people. :)
 

Loki

Count of Concision
JoshuaJSlone said:
As long as they're citizens, I'd still be cool with them voting. Heck, they're probably more knowledgeable about our government than most people. :)

It's foolish to suggest that a murderer should be allowed to vote while they're serving their sentence. Sorry, but I have to be blunt in this instance.


You do realize that studies have shown that nearly 60% of inmates have one form of psychopathology or another (antisocial personality disorder being the most prevalent), right? Personally, I'm not comfortable with letting such people hold sway over who our leaders should be, any more than I'd be comfortable with allowing an institutionalized schizophrenic to vote.


I could delve into the philosophical issues at play here (viz., the fact that they've broken the social contract and hence renounce certain of the rights afforded them under that contract), but I'll spare you. Nobody's suggesting that we deny felons ALL rights-- that would be foolish. But I really can't see the wisdom in allowing a person who walked into a bank and shot people up to have a say in our government equal to yours or mine.


Beyond all this, it's not as if we sprang this "hey, you can't vote now!" stuff on them only after they were imprisoned. They knew full well that forfeiture of voting privileges was part of the deal when they decided to commit their crimes. Seems odd to give that much of a shit about some of these savages when they should have known better in the first place.


So much shit wrong with this country and some people are worried about allowing murderers to vote. :lol Yes, because that will solve our problems; that is a sound decision. <thumbs-up> The mind boggles...
 

ShadowRed

Banned
JoshuaJSlone said:
As long as they're citizens, I'd still be cool with them voting. Heck, they're probably more knowledgeable about our government than most people. :)




Using that logic then I saw we should let all felons out of jail this instant. I mean they are citizens and the rest of us, non crime commiting citicens aren't forced to be locked up. It would be cool. :D
 

ToxicAdam

Member
ge-man said:
That seems like a pain in the ass when compared to the this idea. Really, if voting is such an important feature of our country why isn't it important enough to have designated as a holiday to further minimizes excuses for not voting? Why should it be difficult?


I change my mind, you are right.

We can use that holiday to elect officials who can figure out why are all of our jobs are leaving to other countries that don't have 14 paid holidays and 3-4 weeks paid vaction a year.


...and if voting was such an important right in this country, why did the founding fathers set up an electoral college and only grant the right to male land owners? Because they didn't trust everyone to vote.

At least with the system we have set up now .. it takes SOME effort. Those are the people that I want voting .. ones that actually PLAN AHEAD and put forth an effort.
 

ge-man

Member
ToxicAdam said:
I change my mind, you are right.

We can use that holiday to elect officials who can figure out why are all of our jobs are leaving to other countries that don't have 14 paid holidays and 3-4 weeks paid vaction a year.

What does outsourcing have to do with the US finding a better way to hold our elections? I wouldn't mind giving up or more useless holiday to make this happen but I feel that it's that important, but I'm not a lawmaker unfortunately.
 
ShadowRed said:
Using that logic then I saw we should let all felons out of jail this instant. I mean they are citizens and the rest of us, non crime commiting citicens aren't forced to be locked up. It would be cool. :D
I just see the right to vote as one that's not necessary to take away. It's not like millions of shitheads don't already vote. Locking someone away for public safety/punishment/rehabilitation is understandable, but unless prisoners become a majority and elect Hannibal Lecter to major office I don't see the danger.

ToxicAdam said:
We can use that holiday to elect officials who can figure out why are all of our jobs are leaving to other countries that don't have 14 paid holidays and 3-4 weeks paid vaction a year.
CEOs have to put food on their diamond tables, too, you know.
 
Loki said:
You do realize that studies have shown that nearly 60% of inmates have one form of psychopathology or another (antisocial personality disorder being the most prevalent), right? Personally, I'm not comfortable with letting such people hold sway over who our leaders should be, any more than I'd be comfortable with allowing an institutionalized schizophrenic to vote.

Why stop at felons in that case why don't we ban all people that display some sort of psychopathology. Utilitarian logic at it's best.

Loki said:
But I really can't see the wisdom in allowing a person who walked into a bank and shot people up to have a say in our government equal to yours or mine.
Why punish them again if they have served their time and have reintergrated themselves back in to socitety. They should be denied the rights accorded to citizens when in jail but, once they are out then they should be accorded the rights given all citizens, when warrented.


Loki said:
So much shit wrong with this country and some people are worried about allowing murderers to vote. :lol Yes, because that will solve our problems; that is a sound decision. <thumbs-up> The mind boggles...

It is always nice how people go for the most viceral example to prove their point. What about non-violent felons?
 

fart

Savant
there should be no question in anyone's mind that the voting process needs to be overhauled. the last election's irregularities as well as the continually worsening turnout should really have attracted more attention. this is clearly just a political move though, as no politician, even sen. clinton, wants to change the election process. every elected official has ALREADY exploited the current election process, and changing it would potentially sacrifice their own re-election.

seriously though, we had computer voting systems that transmitted voting information practically in plaintext across unsecured phonelines basically without any kind of authentication, and people basically disenfranchised for no good reason. it's legacy ridiculousness.
 

Loki

Count of Concision
Why stop at felons in that case why don't we ban all people that display some sort of psychopathology. Utilitarian logic at it's best

Because A) Not all people have manifested such pathology to the same degree that criminals have (i.e., by flouting the law); B) because it is not the psychopathology itself that is the sufficient condition for denial of voting privileges (it was merely one proposition in an argument)-- the "institutionalized schizophrenic" example was not hastily chosen, as it illustrates severely impaired social functioning, the same way that committing a crime evinces severely impaired social functioning; and C) it would be far too costly to endeavor to determine which members of the general populace suffered from psychopathology-- and besides, as I said, it is not a sufficient condition (i.e., on its own) to form the basis of disenfranchisement, since many people can have various levels of pathology yet still function adequately in society.


At any rate, that angle was but a single one, not the crux of the argument. I could have just as easily said "I am not in favor of letting criminal deviants vote" and left it at that (and you would not have had anything to argue against, then :p). Because, really, I don't have to argue much against the notion that felons should be allowed to vote while they're incarcerated, since it's absurd on its face.


And I'm not a utilitarian-- not strictly, at least.


Why punish them again if they have served their time and have reintergrated themselves back in to socitety. They should no doubt be denied the rights accorded to citizens when in jail but, once they are out then they should be accorded the rights given all citizens.

Where did I say different? Why are you arguing with me, then? ;) :p


Here:

Loki said:
In most (all?) states, felons who have served their time can vote once they're out of prison (as is proper).

Post #57. :)

It is always nice how people go for the most viceral example to prove their point. What about non-violent felons?

No. They've broken the social contract, and committed a crime which had clearly stated consequences. I see no compelling reason to allow them to have a say in our government until they have served their time. If you rob a home when nobody's there and then get convicted for it, you should be allowed to vote? Sorry, but no.


Again, I am speaking of while these people are in prison, not afterwards, when their rights as citizens should obviously be fully reinstated.


Like I said, I find it absurd that with all the problems in this country, there are people who would make voting rights for convicted felons a cause celebre. It's something I won't even entertain the notion of, quite frankly.
 
Whoops I thought you were speaking of when they are out of prison time served. I agree 100% in prison you should not be allowed to vote.


*sits back in the corner and puts foot back in mouth*
 

Loki

Count of Concision
Tommie Hu$tle said:
Whoops I thought you were speaking of when they are out of prison time served. I agree 100% in prison you should not be allowed to vote.

<shakes fist at Tommie Hu$tle>

I want my 5 minutes back! :D
 
Loki said:
Like I said, I find it absurd that with all the problems in this country, there are people who would make voting rights for convicted felons a cause celebre. It's something I won't even entertain the notion of, quite frankly.
Hell, it only managed to sneak into a thread on a video game message board on the Internet by way of parentheses.
 

Phoenix

Member
Zaptruder said:
You can goto the booths and NOT vote you know.

You'd have to be the dumbest dumbass of the dumbass consortium to actually go to a polling place, go into the booth, and NOT vote.
 

Phoenix

Member
ToxicAdam said:
I can't believe you people are aligning with this. We already have too many f'ing holiday.



THERE IS SOMETHING CALLED AN ABSENTEE BALLOT IF YOU HAVE TROUBLE VOTING.

How many absentee ballots have been lost over the years? Nevertheless the entire legislation isn't about a HOLIDAY it also calls for more certifications of the system and physical receipting of the system as well.
 
Phoenix said:
You'd have to be the dumbest dumbass of the dumbass consortium to actually go to a polling place, go into the booth, and NOT vote.

Wouldn't that be disenfranchising the last person in line if you did that.
 
Well first off the joke is dead. :(

What I was saying was that if you were the Grand Puba of Dumbasses who stood in line and did not vote then you would preventing the last person in line from voting before the polls close.
 

Gek54

Junior Member
No more hollidays, fuck, get back to work and school you lazy bastards. If you cant figure out how to vote inbetween work and school then more than likely you are too dumb to make an educated vote. What is all this bitching about lines when you can just mail your vote?
 

Loki

Count of Concision
JoshuaJSlone said:
Hell, it only managed to sneak into a thread on a video game message board on the Internet by way of parentheses.

Yeah, but it's an issue that's gaining some steam now, with the NYCLU recently submitting a brief seeking to enfranchise felons while they're still incarcerated. I read an article and an editorial about it in the local paper last week and was shocked that anyone would take up such a cause (on any grounds, including civil rights); I still am.


The angle they took was that since discrepancies exist within our judicial system with regard to how people of various races are treated, disenfranchising felons disproportionately affects minorities, and as such is inherently racist. Now, I could just as easily say that if more minorities commit crimes than whites, then those are the consequences. However, even if I were to delve deeper and entertain their dubious argument, I would say that the claim that there are disparities in judicial outcomes might hold water, but then using that to try to extend the franchise to felons-- rather than simply, oh I dunno, addressing judicial disparities-- is a chain of logic so tortured that I don't care to consider it.


In other words, if you have grievance "A", then address grievance "A"-- don't try to implement solution "B" to a problem "B" that doesn't exist, or is only believed to exist. The burden of proof for such claims is incredibly high, and I'm unaware of any legitimate studies on race and judicial outcomes (in terms of conviction rates and severity of sentencing) that have controlled for the following factors: race, socioeconomic status, venue, prosecutorial style, and prior criminal/behavioral history. In other words, any one of these could be influencing both conviction rates as well as the length of sentences being meted out; I can just as easily posit that the quality of public defenders (who are paid a pittance compared to private attorneys), whose services indigent defendants will more often avail themselves of, is terribly lacking as compared to their privately retained counterparts, and this results in a difference in outcomes. Seeing as how, statistically, more minorities live in poverty than whites do, and given the general correlation between poverty and crime (which is statistically significant for all races), it stands to reason that minorities might be more adversely affected by such conditions.


Is this, in fact, the case? I have absolutely no idea-- but neither does anyone else, and that's the point. Several studies from decidedly partisan organizations have focused strictly on outcomes, and I feel that that's disingenuous in a sense, and may overlook certain systemic and cultural factors at play. Point being, there is a tremendous burden of proof on those making assertions of institutional racism within our judicial system if they are to then use that supposition as a basis to introduce sweeping reform. The proper "logical procedure" when making such a claim would be to:


1) Verify the claim by way of detailed, controlled (i.e., for these possibly confounding variables), peer-reviewed studies in legal journals.
2) Attempt to address, insofar as possible, the root causes of such disparities in outcomes as determined by said studies.

3) Assuming that you cannot ameliorate the situation for whatever reasons, yet you are convinced that such differences exist based on your investigations, present your findings to Congress and petition for an extension of the franchise to felons while they're incarcerated (this is because I don't feel that this is a civil rights issue at all, and as such should not be decided in the courts; the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment doesn't cover freely chosen actions, particularly criminal ones-- in fact, section 2 of the 14th Amendment explicitly states that criminals may be denied suffrage).



Still, even if one can quibble with this last point, the bulk of the work must be done in keeping with the first two points; so far, it has not been-- not by a longshot. All we get are rhapsodic appeals to our intrinsic notions of fairness and unsubstantiated entreaties submitted to the courts. This doesn't hold water imo, especially not as the basis for important reform. Not only are they trying to skip from "1" to "3", but they didn't even go about substantiating "1" properly.


Finally, do not take this as a statement of good faith in our judicial system, as if I believe that no racial disparities exist. They might very well exist, and, looking at it superficially as a layperson, I'd be inclined to believe that they do; there certainly are differences in outcomes. However, the cause might very well not be systemic, but cultural (i.e., blame may lie with juries rather than with prosecutorial discretion, the adequacy of one's defense, or sentencing guidelines), in which case I'm not even sure what the remedy might look like. It would undoubtedly be much broader in scope than mere legal reform, however.



This is how I see it. :)
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
I don't know if this has been stated elsewhere, but I didn't see it while skimming the thread....

Today it occured to me that despite the uproar from the usual state media talking heads, enfranchising former felons has less to do with getting the "criminal vote" than it does with stopping shenanigans like Jeb Bush and his infamous blacklist bullshit. If exfelons are allowed to vote, then the device used to bar them from voting can't be used to bar otherwise legitimate voters.

Oh, and a hearty FUCK YOU to everyone who is whining about "yet another holiday". Assholes.
 

Loki

Count of Concision
Hitokage said:
I don't know if this has been stated elsewhere, but I didn't see it while skimming the thread....

Today it occured to me that despite the uproar from the usual state media talking heads, enfranchising former felons has less to do with getting the "criminal vote" than it does with stopping shenanigans like Jeb Bush and his infamous blacklist bullshit. If exfelons are allowed to vote, then the device used to bar them from voting can't be used to bar otherwise legitimate voters.

Oh, and a hearty FUCK YOU to everyone who is whining about "yet another holiday". Assholes.

I'm not sure if this was directed at me (since I know you tend to only skim my posts :D), but I never took issue with enfranchising felons who've already served their time; in fact, I thought that was the law of the land in most states? I didn't think that there were any states which deny the vote to former felons. I only take issue with suggesting that we allow convicts to vote while they're imprisoned, as the NYCLU has done. :)
 

Loki

Count of Concision
Hitokage said:
The main part of my post was not in reply to anything previously said.

Yes, and I should have realized that based on your post. I don't know what's wrong with me lately, but I seem to be making a lot of reading errors/oversights. Very weird. I'm old, but I'm not that old... :p


Sorry.
 

xsarien

daedsiluap
Celicar said:
Way to avoid my points in this thread.

And exactly what "points" are those?

"Screw holidays, I'd rather WORK, so there"?

"More polling stations would be the solution," (Which gleefully ignores the fact that you can't just magically create or build designated areas, or ignore voting districts)

Or was it "Polling stations are open earlier now," which has been demonstrated to be a rather non-effective solution?


I see no points, just disingenuous and cynical statements.
 

Celicar

Banned
xsarien said:
Or was it "Polling stations are open earlier now," which has been demonstrated to be a rather non-effective solution?


Reread what you just wrote.

Now tell me, why do you believe giving people a day off from work will be an effective solution?
 

xsarien

daedsiluap
Celicar said:
Reread what you just wrote.

Now tell me, why do you believe giving people a day off from work will be an effective solution?

Because they still have to weigh the length of time they have to wait with when they have to be at work.
 

Celicar

Banned
How about just make voting available via the internet. Now we can vote while we work! Or ask for the day off! There we go. Now we can stay productive AND vote!
 

xsarien

daedsiluap
Celicar said:
How about just make voting available via the internet. Now we can vote while we work! Or ask for the day off! There we go. Now we can stay productive AND vote!

We can't even nail voter fraud with paper ballots, and you want to take it online? Now you're just not being honest, arguing against the idea simply because Clinton's pushing for it.
 

Celicar

Banned
xsarien said:
We can't even nail voter fraud with paper ballots, and you want to take it online? Now you're just not being honest, arguing against the idea simply because Clinton's pushing for it.


I think you're just trying to make excuses on why voter turnout isn't higher. Giving people a day off isn't going to increase voter turnout.
 

Celicar

Banned
xsarien said:
Simple logic says otherwise.


And simple logic says by extending the hours for the polling booths and allowing early voting would increase voter turnout. So lets not just give people a day off from work. That's ridiculous.

People were given an incredible amount of time to vote in this past election. No additional time will help. Tell me who these people are that are working 20 hour days and can't find the time to get to a poll.
 

whytemyke

Honorary Canadian.
democrats need to learn from the 2004 election: that whole "get out the vote" thing didn't work. nobody likes democrats. its simple human nature. even clinton had to become a huge moderate to get the votes, and wouldn't have been elected to begin with if Perot didn't run in 92.

only really good thing about this bill is getting more money to states to modernize their voting systems.
 

xsarien

daedsiluap
Celicar said:
And simple logic says by extending the hours for the polling booths and allowing early voting would increase voter turnout. So lets not just give people a day off from work. That's ridiculous.

The problem with extending hours in the morning is that it won't stop people from saying "I'm still going to be late for work," not to mention that if you show me someone so gung-ho about voting that they'll get up earlier to vote earlier, I'll show you a politician wanting to mug for the morning news cameras. Extending the hours into the night would do nothing to solve the core problem, which was the presence of prohibitively large lines. It's a matter of people not wanting to stand on line for hours on end. The polling station hours are just fine. It's the fact that people sometimes can't get out of work to get to them, therefore causing insurmountable delays at the end of the day.

People were given an incredible amount of time to vote in this past election. No additional time will help. Tell me who these people are that are working 20 hour days and can't find the time to get to a poll.

You, apparently, whose job is so dreadfully important that you can't even be bothered to have ANOTHER federal holiday thrown at your schedule. I swear - and I mean this - you're the first person I've ever - EVER - met to have an issue with being given time off that you can, realistically, use in any way you choose.

So how about my offer from before, huh? Go to work on every federal holiday for the remainder of the year, Celi. Including Christmas.
 

ge-man

Member
whytemyke said:
democrats need to learn from the 2004 election: that whole "get out the vote" thing didn't work. nobody likes democrats. its simple human nature. even clinton had to become a huge moderate to get the votes, and wouldn't have been elected to begin with if Perot didn't run in 92.

only really good thing about this bill is getting more money to states to modernize their voting systems.

I think most dems understand that, but that doesn't mean that the current system couldn't stand some changes.
 

Celicar

Banned
xsarien said:
The problem with extending hours in the morning is that it won't stop people from saying "I'm still going to be late for work." Extending the hours into the night would do nothing to solve the core problem, which was the presence of prohibitively large lines. It's a matter of people not wanting to stand on line for hours on end.


You, apparently, whose job is so dreadfully important that you can't even be bothered to have ANOTHER federal holiday thrown at your schedule. I swear - and I mean this - you're the first person I've ever - EVER - met to have an issue with being given time off that you can, realistically, use in any way you choose.

So how about my offer from before, huh? Go to work on every federal holiday for the remainder of the year, Celi. Including Christmas.


So it's a matter of the long lines? Well why not make more booths per polling station? How about 100? That sounds fair. Giving people a day off from work won't help. What if they all go at noon? OH NOZ!!! Long line! Guess they won't vote!!

It's not about me not wanting time off from work. Why not give us a day off for President's Day? That sounds fairly important. I think that's Monday. Our country is a democracy, and we've had many presidents. They're very important people. Why not give us that day off, so we can reflect on all the things former presidents have done for us?
 
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