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[whytemyke]

giving people a day off to vote won't fix it though.

if you want to stimulate voting, you do it like Belgium does, and you make it mandatory that every citizen vote.

If you're going to make changes, don't make fluff changes that are going to be ultimately ineffective. Make changes that'll get people to vote.

 

[xsarien]

So it's a matter of the long lines? Well why not make more booths per polling station? How about 100? That sounds fair. Giving people a day off from work won't help. What if they all go at noon? OH NOZ!!! Long line! Guess they won't vote!!

Because we can magically make however many booths we need fit into a polling station. I had no idea; Jinx better show up and explain the physics of that to me.

It's not about me not wanting time off from work. Why not give us a day off for President's Day?

Presidents' Day is a federal holiday, and I do have Monday off. Try again.

 

[Celicar]

Because we can magically make however many booths we need fit into a polling station. I had no idea; Jinx better show up and explain the physics of that to me.



Presidents' Day is a federal holiday, and I do have Monday off. Try again.

Wrong. I do not have Monday off from work. It isn't a federal holiday.

You are really out there, aren't you? You're telling me they can't make more polling stations? That's an imposibility? It's against the law? What is it? This is absurd. I'm actually laughing at your responses.

 

[whytemyke]

now now celica, don't laugh...


POINT and laugh! Like so!

*points at xsarien* Hahahaa!!! Your responses are teh suxor!

 

[Hitokage]

It's not about me not wanting time off from work. Why not give us a day off for President's Day? That sounds fairly important. I think that's Monday. Our country is a democracy, and we've had many presidents. They're very important people. Why not give us that day off, so we can reflect on all the things former presidents have done for us?

Now you're just being stupid. Try to remember that in democratic forms of government the people select their leaders, and maybe, JUST MAYBE, that might be more important than spending the day at the office. Then again, if profits go down that .01% we're all fucked.

 

[xsarien]

Wrong. I do not have Monday off from work. It isn't a federal holiday.

Your government would like a word with you:
http://www.opm.gov/fedhol/2005.asp
http://aa.usno.navy.mil/faq/docs/holidays.html

Washington's Birthday/President's Day (one and the same) is a federal holiday. It's been that way for some time.

You're telling me they can't make more polling stations?

Given that people are generally assigned polling places, it'd be logistical pain in the ass; you do know that you can't just show up at any one you want, right? And that's BEFORE state election boards would need to find suitable places to hold the elections. Letting people take the day off so they can get to their perfectly adequate polling stations would be the more reasonable approach. I think our economy can stand the burden of one more day off. God knows taking time off hasn't really taken too much of a toll on Dubya.

 

[whytemyke]

the question here isn't whether people would be better able to vote on their day off... it's whether people would vote.

given that people who can't make it to the stations because of a job are currently able to vote absentee, I highly doubt that giving them a day off is going to do anything.

 

[xsarien]

given that people who can't make it to the stations because of a job are currently able to vote absentee, I highly doubt that giving them a day off is going to do anything.

If they're job is keeping them away from home period, then yes, they can get an absentee ballot. You can't get one, however, if you just get home at 7 p.m. and can't be bothered to wait on line at the polling station, which closes at 9.

 

[Celicar]

If they're job is keeping them away from home period, then yes, they can get an absentee ballot. You can't get one, however, if you just get home at 7 p.m. and can't be bothered to wait on line at the polling station, which closes at 9.

What if you could? Problem solved. Talk to your local representative about that. Maybe you can make it happen. Change the rules of the absentee ballot! That's easier than giving people a day off from work!

Now you're just being stupid. Try to remember that in democratic forms of government the people select their leaders, and maybe, JUST MAYBE, that might be more important than spending the day at the office. Then again, if profits go down that .01% we're all fucked.

Then again, it is an election. No one is forced to vote. And by giving people a day off from work, that does not guarantee that those people will vote.

More people employeed at the polling stations and more booths. That's the simple answer.

 

[whytemyke]

if you just get home at 7 p.m. and can't be bothered to wait on line at the polling station, which closes at 9.

well if you can't be bothered to stand in line to do your civic duty, then what's the big deal?

and as I voted absentee this year, you can indeed get an absentee ballot if you simply cannot make it to your poll on that day. There are a number of reasons to check if you need to vote absentee, and one of them is indeed if you're unable to make it to the polling station.

 

[Drensch]

you can indeed get an absentee ballot if you simply cannot make it to your poll on that day.

Not true. The rules vary state by state. In Ohio, there is quite the burden to absentee voters. You have to prove you will be out of the county and unable to be there at any time during voting. Amongst other reasons, and our Sec State is a real fucker who does anything he can to stop voters.

 

[whytemyke]

alright. I figured it varied state to state, but wasn't sure. i live in michigan and the laws are fairly lax.

even still, this is another reason not to have a freakin' holiday for voting.

 

[Tommie Hu$tle]

Not true. The rules vary state by state. In Ohio, there is quite the burden to absentee voters. You have to prove you will be out of the county and unable to be there at any time during voting. Amongst other reasons, and our Sec State is a real fucker who does anything he can to stop voters.

Same in Arizona, you can't just say I don't feel like waiting in line or I don't feel like taking off work. To get an absentee ballot.

 

[Hitokage]

Then again, it is an election. No one is forced to vote. And by giving people a day off from work, that does not guarantee that those people will vote.

This is about letting people not be forced to not vote.

 

[whytemyke]

Making it inconvenient for them to vote doesn't mean you're not allowing them to vote.

 

[ShadowRed]

:lol It's fucking hilarious that people are against the creation of a holiday that would be the first fucking functional holiday ever. All the other holidays are for freaking remembering the Presidents or remembering dead soldiers or remembering the founding of the country, nothing productive comes from these days, yet people are bitching that creating one more holiday so people can more easily participate in their government, would hurt the economy, verses burning meat and drinking beer at the lake. Get the fuck out of here. Where are you economy hawks at when Memorial Day rolls around? Why don't you bitch about the money the economy is losing on that day?

Making it inconvenient for them to vote doesn't mean you're not allowing them to vote.

:lol You gotta be kidding me. I take it you would be for poll taxs as it doesn't stop people from voting. I mean you are only inconviencing people, not out right not allowing them to vote.

 

[xsarien]

and as I voted absentee this year, you can indeed get an absentee ballot if you simply cannot make it to your poll on that day.

Welcome to reading my posts before replying to them, enjoy your stay.

 

[whytemyke]

You gotta be kidding me. I take it you would be for poll taxs as it doesn't stop people from voting. I mean you are only inconviencing people, not out right not allowing them to vote.

Haha, you don't want my personal opinions on this matter. I believe we should evolve to a meritocracy in the first place. I don't think every idiot across the country who sees a couple ads is therefore qualified to vote. I believe you should have to prove your understanding of the political system to be able to vote. Just as I wouldn't trust somebody who's only experience with a car engine is an autoshow to repair my vehicle, I don't trust people who's only experience with politics is CNN or Fox News to be in a position to impact the country politically. We SHOULD have 'literacy tests', as they're formerly called, but sans racism. Granted, we're speaking in an ideal American society here... not realistic in the least.

As it is, I'm not arguing based on the idea of economic ruin or anything that stupid. I'm simply saying that to have such a holiday would be pointless, because the people that want to vote will find a way to vote, even if it means waiting 2 hours in line to do so. The people that don't want to vote won't. And if you don't really want to, but you're going to because of a holiday... well, you're even worse, because you're only doing something because the popular thought tells you to-- not because you've come to that conclusion yourself.

not to mention, this entire bill is such a publicity shot at getting the blue color and minority vote back to democrats that it isn't even funny.

 

[Hitokage]

not to mention, this entire bill is such a publicity shot at getting the blue color and minority vote back to democrats that it isn't even funny.

Yeah, it can't possibly be a reaction to the election mishaps of 2000 and 2004.

BTW, why do you want to bar yourself from voting?

 

[whytemyke]

Yeah, it can't possibly be an honest push for election reform.

If they wanted election reform, it wouldn't start by making a national holiday out of it. They'd start out by rewriting election laws and streamlining them so everything is run on a federal level. They'd keep results from going out on national forms of press so that it wouldn't effect the west coast vote. Or, how about this strange idea? Actually give people someone that REPRESENTS THEM so that they can have a reason to vote in the first place. Or maybe they could even rewrite the campaign finance reform that they passed (with the help of John McCain) initially so that candidates couldn't opt out of it and get paid ten times as much by one NGO as they would by the government for running in the first place. There are a ton of things they could do to fix the system as it is.. and they propose one of the dumbest things possible that isn't even supported by any statistics I've read in any single political book.

Christ, everyone wants to point the finger at the voters for not voting. People don't vote because it's inconvenient (on a whole)... they don't vote because they're disenfranchised as a whole.

EDIT: And how can you call 2004 a mishap? Are you brain dead? There were no mishaps. There were lazy voters, but that's not the fault of the system. The people that wanted to vote were able to. 2004 was a perfect example of the fact that the DNC isn't able to put up even a half decent candidate. When Zogby can do a poll and find that people would vote for "Not Bush" over "Bush", but would rather choose "Bush" over "Kerry"... there's definitely something wrong. Hopefully Dean can reestablish the party, but regardless, 2004 was hardly a mishap.

 

[Ristamar]

if you want to stimulate voting, you do it like Belgium does, and you make it mandatory that every citizen vote.

That's a very interesting interpretation of 'stimulating'...

 

[Baron Aloha]

I am simply amazed at this thread. I have never in my life seen someone complain about getting another free vacation day. Now I can say that I truly have seen it all.

Anyway, I really hope this happens. I mean heck, if we get off for people's birthdays and stuff (like this Monday) we should definitely have off on election day.

 

[Hitokage]

If they wanted election reform, it wouldn't start by making a national holiday out of it. They'd start out by rewriting election laws and streamlining them so everything is run on a federal level. They'd keep results from going out on national forms of press so that it wouldn't effect the west coast vote.

While voting needs standardization, there is no national ballot and with the electoral college not even the president is a national vote. Everything is state level, so having it shifted to all federal is not going to be an easy sell.

They'd keep results from going out on national forms of press so that it wouldn't effect the west coast vote.

Or in Ohio 2004, the other way around, right?

Christ, everyone wants to point the finger at the voters for not voting. People don't vote because it's inconvenient (on a whole)... they don't vote because they're disenfranchised as a whole.

And in more ways than you imply.

EDIT: And how can you call 2004 a mishap? Are you brain dead?

One, I'm not specifically refering to the final result of the election, and two, no, I was just paying attention.

 

[Phoenix]

Haha, you don't want my personal opinions on this matter. I believe we should evolve to a meritocracy in the first place. I don't think every idiot across the country who sees a couple ads is therefore qualified to vote. I believe you should have to prove your understanding of the political system to be able to vote.

Oh lord I thought this kind of thinking died out in the 60s and 70s back when they were testing people to find out how 'intelligent' they were. An easy way to disenfranchise voters is to start testing them. Voting in this country is a right, not a privilege.

Just as I wouldn't trust somebody who's only experience with a car engine is an autoshow to repair my vehicle, I don't trust people who's only experience with politics is CNN or Fox News to be in a position to impact the country politically. We SHOULD have 'literacy tests', as they're formerly called, but sans racism. Granted, we're speaking in an ideal American society here... not realistic in the least.

No, no no.

As it is, I'm not arguing based on the idea of economic ruin or anything that stupid. I'm simply saying that to have such a holiday would be pointless, because the people that want to vote will find a way to vote, even if it means waiting 2 hours in line to do so.

And that's logically inconsistent as many people who say work at McDonalds may not be able to get to their polling place during their hours of work if they have to perhaps drop of and pick up a child from daycare. If you want to be fair about it - make it a 24 hour process for several consecutive days or something.

The people that don't want to vote won't. And if you don't really want to, but you're going to because of a holiday... well, you're even worse, because you're only doing something because the popular thought tells you to-- not because you've come to that conclusion yourself.

There is no 'right and wrong' in selecting elected officials. No amount of 'education' is going to change who people will vote for. People will vote along their party lines in a clutch and vote along issues of relevance for their daily lives.

not to mention, this entire bill is such a publicity shot at getting the blue color and minority vote back to democrats that it isn't even funny.

Right and the religious legislations and anti gay legislation currently being pushed by Bush isn't to keep the religious conservatives on their side. You sir need to remove the blinders.

 

[Sirpopopop]

Australia does the mandatory voting thing Whytemyke.

It increases the vote, but many of the people voting still do it on trivial reasons. Not to mention mandatory voting could be construed as a violation of the First Amendment.

 

[DDayton]

You folks do realize that creating a federal holiday would not ensure time off for anyone other than federal workers, right? State workers might also get the day off, but there is really no reason to assume that every private business is also going to give their employees another holiday. The federal government can't force folks to give holidays -- this bill only ensures that federal workers get the day off.

 

[Celicar]

You folks do realize that creating a federal holiday would not ensure time off for anyone other than federal workers, right? State workers might also get the day off, but there is really no reason to assume that every private business is also going to give their employees another holiday. The federal government can't force folks to give holidays -- this bill only ensures that federal workers get the day off.

So that's why I don't have today off...

 

[fart]

You folks do realize that creating a federal holiday would not ensure time off for anyone other than federal workers, right? State workers might also get the day off, but there is really no reason to assume that every private business is also going to give their employees another holiday. The federal government can't force folks to give holidays -- this bill only ensures that federal workers get the day off.

many unions have contracts that make it much easier for workers to take federal holidays off, all state schools would not be able to hold classes, etc. while it wouldn't guarantee that everyone has the day off to vote, it would make it substantially easier for people to vote, especially if doing so became a more significant cultural event.

as i said before though, this is a mostly political maneuver. NO ONE who can vote on this measure actually wants to change election dynamics. everyone in office has a vested interest in the system as-is. it's an unfortunate byproduct of the system that it encourages stasis.

 

[Hitokage]

Ok, fuck the state media. Fuck them to hell. All this nonsense about Clinton wanting just a holiday is bullshit, all the nonsense about felons is bullshit, and all of this thread is bullshit. Fuck talking points. Here's pertinent parts from Sen Boxer's press release concerning the actual act... why the hell did it take a random visit to Daily Kos to see this.

WASHINGTON, DC- U.S. Senators Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-NY) and Barbara Boxer (D-CA) today unveiled comprehensive voting reform legislation to make sure that every American is able to vote and every vote is counted. Senators Clinton and Boxer announced the legislation today in a press conference joined by Representative Stephanie Tubbs Jones (D-OH), who will sponsor the legislation in the House of Representatives, and voting rights advocates. [...]

The Count Every Vote Act of 2005 will provide a voter verified paper ballot for every vote cast in electronic voting machines and ensures access to voter verification for all citizens, including language minority voters, illiterate voters and voters with disabilities. The bill mandates that this ballot be the official ballot for purposes of a recount. The bill sets a uniform standard for provisional ballots so that every qualified voter will know their votes are treated equally, and requires the Federal Election Assistance Commission to issue standards that ensure uniform access to voting machines and trained election personnel in every community. The bill also improves security measures for electronic voting machines.

To encourage more citizens to exercise their right to vote, the Count Every Vote Act designates Election Day a federal holiday and requires early voting in each state. The bill also enacts "no-excuse" absentee balloting, enacts fair and uniform voter registration and identification, and requires states to allow citizens to register to vote on Election Day. It also requires the Election Assistance Commission to work with states to reduce wait times for voters at polling places. In addition, the legislation restores voting rights for felons who have repaid their debt to society.

The Count Every Vote Act also includes measures to protect voters from deceptive practices and conflicts of interest that harm voter trust in the integrity of the system. In particular, the bill restricts the ability of chief state election officials as well as owners and senior managers of voting machine manufacturers to engage in certain kinds of political activity. The bill also makes it a federal crime to commit deceptive practices, such as sending flyers into minority neighborhoods telling voters the wrong voting date, and makes these practices a felony punishable by up to a year of imprisonment.

 

[ToxicAdam]

The Count Every Vote Act also includes measures to protect voters from deceptive practices and conflicts of interest that harm voter trust in the integrity of the system. In particular, the bill restricts the ability of chief state election officials as well as owners and senior managers of voting machine manufacturers to engage in certain kinds of political activity. The bill also makes it a federal crime to commit deceptive practices, such as sending flyers into minority neighborhoods telling voters the wrong voting date, and makes these practices a felony punishable by up to a year of imprisonment.

What a bunch of redundant language. This is just a swipe at the alledged faulty 2000 election. So, the Dems took an idea that many people would like, and turned it into a political football.


So, this bill will get struck down, and then the Democrats get to get on thier high perch and crow "Look the Republicans want to keep minorities from voting!!"

Yawn. What a broken system we have.

 

[Mandark]

What bill should they have proposed that would please people and not get voted down by Republicans? Do you believe that the actions specified shouldn't be regulated?

I honestly do not understand criticism of proposed legislation on the basis of a political party probably not supporting it. "Political football" is a stupid meme.

 

[Do The Mario]

Dare I say what is wrong with mandatory participation and Saturday voting?

It works swimming in Australia why wouldn’t it work in America? Voting in the state election yesterday took me 5mins including the walk from my car and yes for the 2nd election in a row I have managed to get to the booth without getting a single “how to vote card”.

 

[impirius]

Ok, fuck the state media. Fuck them to hell. All this nonsense about Clinton wanting just a holiday is bullshit, all the nonsense about felons is bullshit, and all of this thread is bullshit. Fuck talking points. Here's pertinent parts from Sen Boxer's press release concerning the actual act... why the hell did it take a random visit to Daily Kos to see this.

Wasn't most of that already discussed early in the thread before it became a discussion about the value of a national Election Day holiday?

My thought on this: Trim the bill down to its most important and least controversial parts, which I think are the paper trail and the national holiday. Pare this thing down before it even reaches committee. I don't think it'll pick up much Republican support if it comes across the way it does in that press release.

 

[Hitokage]

Wasn't most of that already discussed early in the thread before it became a discussion about the value of a national Election Day holiday?

Within the span of 1 or 2 posts, but anyway, I was just pissed off that the focus of the bill has been misrepresented in both this thread and on tv... you know, critical information people need to made an educated decision. I really need to get my car radio fixed.

Oh, and controversial? Is getting rid of shit like Diebold controversial? WHY?

(I know the reason, but I want to hear it from somebody else)