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[appaws]

This is a really disturbing article. As a criminal attorney, I am so careful at all times to safeguard the rights of the accused, and it makes me furious that universities are doing this to people. More and more I think states need to require that Universities must follow the due process and standards of evidence of the community at large.

This is a story of a rape accusation that would not die and a misshapen version of college justice meted out in three chapters.

Now we turn to the consequences. In May 2017, The Detroit Free Press reports that Mumphery, a receiver for the Houston Texans and a graduate student at Michigan State, was expelled by the university because of a sexual assault. Two days later, after practice, the Texans’ coach calls him into the office: Keith, this case is a problem and we’re letting you go. Mumphery drives home to Vienna, Ga., which has a diner, fast-food joints, a single motel behind the gas station and a streetlight. He wonders what has become of his life.

This is not an outtake from a bad men’s rights movie. Civil libertarians and legal scholars, including those with impeccable feminist credentials, have challenged the lack of due process in these Title IX proceedings, particularly for the accused. Twenty-eight members of the Harvard Law faculty, including prominent female and male liberal professors, recently signed an open letter in The Boston Globe.

Their letter read: “Harvard has adopted procedures for deciding cases of alleged sexual misconduct which lack the most basic elements of fairness and due process, are overwhelmingly stacked against the accused and are in no way required by Title IX law.”

Full Article:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/30/...igan-state.html#click=https://t.co/ZfeNy3cwcB

 

[mckmas8808]

This is a really disturbing article. As a criminal attorney, I am so careful at all times to safeguard the rights of the accused, and it makes me furious that universities are doing this to people. More and more I think states need to require that Universities must follow the due process and standards of evidence of the community at large.







Full Article:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/30/...igan-state.html#click=https://t.co/ZfeNy3cwcB

Good post OP. This is what happens when something gets ignored too long. The dumb rules by Harvard is like blow back. They are over doing it.

 

[llien]

Sexually charged texts and a photograph, which exist in this case, can establish flirtation but do not speak to consent — the woman claims in her own lawsuit and in police reports that she was very drunk and had consumed well in excess of a dozen shots of vodka before Mumphery arrived. She insisted she could not agree to have sex. Mumphery disputes that the woman was drunk. A police report states that surveillance videos show her walking “with a steady gait” and with no trouble keeping her balance. Mumphery says that she opposed his use of a condom and that they did not have sex. The woman says she has been traumatized.

Is the "we didn't have sex" point disputed by the accuser?
Was he found guilty of simply having intent to have sex, but then refusing to???

This is what happens when something gets ignored too long.

But what has been ignored "too long"? Actual rapes?

 

[appaws]

But what has been ignored "too long"? Actual rapes?

I think that is what he means. That sexual assault and rapes too often were swept under the rug, and victims were treated horribly, so now the pendulum is swinging too far the other way, and those accused (especially in universities) are being denied the basic rights our society grants to all criminal defendants.

I think we could easily come to a consensus on this, that there is no reason that your rights disappear or diminish just because you are a college student. If colleges cannot (or will not) allow for basic due process protections for accused persons, then these matters need to be handled by local law enforcement and prosecutors offices.

 

[BANGS]

I don't see why it's legal for colleges to even get involved in these situations. Rape and sexual assaults are crimes, leave it to the professionals...

 

[Autoignition]

And yet Ben Rapistberger is still a highly esteemed starting quarterback.

 

[Moneal]

I don't see why it's legal for colleges to even get involved in these situations. Rape and sexual assaults are crimes, leave it to the professionals...

This is similar to workplace accusations. The accuser has the right to feel safe at the college, and its the college's job to make sure that happens or face consequences if they don't. The college can be sued for not doing anything or not doing enough. The colleges are just protecting themselves just like a business would with these type of accusations, especially if the accusations are made public. They seem to have been going to far for a long time now though.

 

[BANGS]

The accuser has the right to feel safe at the college

Which amendment is that?

 

[NickFire]

This is similar to workplace accusations. The accuser has the right to feel safe at the college, and its the college's job to make sure that happens or face consequences if they don't. The college can be sued for not doing anything or not doing enough. The colleges are just protecting themselves just like a business would with these type of accusations, especially if the accusations are made public. They seem to have been going to far for a long time now though.

I agree the colleges have an obligation to investigate these things independently from the police. But along the lines of what you said, the issue is how they go about it. There are no safeguards or protections for the accused in practice and their rash decisions can destroy the life of the innocent accused. Instead of rushing to please the damn twitter crowd, they need to afford the accused with full due process rights. At least if they accept a penny in federal backed loans, grants, etc.

 

[Moneal]

Which amendment is that?

I would guess the 9th. Its more a title 9 issue though.

 

[Zog]

Good post OP. This is what happens when something gets ignored too long. The dumb rules by Harvard is like blow back. They are over doing it.

Rape has never been ignored. An accusation is not a confirmed rape.

 

[BANGS]

I would guess the 9th. Its more a title 9 issue though.

Neither the 9th amendment nor Title 9 delegates how and institution is supposed to make you feel. The very concept of that is mind boggling...

Rape has never been ignored.

Even as someone who is basically on "your side" of this issue, this is bullshit. Alotta dudes in the boys clubs got away with alot of shit in the past...

 

[Zog]

Even as someone who is basically on "your side" of this issue, this is bullshit. Alotta dudes in the boys clubs got away with alot of shit in the past...

Says who?

An unreported rape is not an ignored rape.
A reported and investigated rape is not an ignored rape.
A lack of a conviction is not an ignored rape.

This idea that women never lie about rape so we should count unreported and unconvicted rapes as real rapes is bullshit.

 

[BANGS]

Says who?

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/21/...ld-to-ignore-afghan-allies-abuse-of-boys.html

Here's just one more modern example of how these things work... use your imagination of how things went in the past...

 

[Zog]

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/21/...ld-to-ignore-afghan-allies-abuse-of-boys.html

Here's just one more modern example of how these things work... use your imagination of how things went in the past...

Oh well if we are talking about rapes of males then yeah, I know that's ignored.

 

[Airola]

I think that is what he means. That sexual assault and rapes too often were swept under the rug, and victims were treated horribly, so now the pendulum is swinging too far the other way, and those accused (especially in universities) are being denied the basic rights our society grants to all criminal defendants.

I think we could easily come to a consensus on this, that there is no reason that your rights disappear or diminish just because you are a college student. If colleges cannot (or will not) allow for basic due process protections for accused persons, then these matters need to be handled by local law enforcement and prosecutors offices.

In Finland just a month or two ago we had news about women's pro sports teams having had problems with women abusing and sexually harassing other women in the teams. It continued from the 1990 to at least 2008 (they only interviewed people who had been in the teams in 1990-2008 - it's not known if it still happens as it hasn't been investigated). Older team members pressured new team members to sexual relationships with them. This was swept under the rug too as always.

If stuff like that has happened even in women's sports teams it must be even bigger problem in men's teams. And yeah, swipe that stuff under the rug too many times and it's bound to create different problems eventually.

 

[mckmas8808]

Oh well if we are talking about rapes of males then yeah, I know that's ignored.

Hold on......so you agree that rape on men have been ignored? But wanted to fight to the death to prove rape on women hasn't been ignored?

 

[Zog]

Hold on......so you agree that rape on men have been ignored? But wanted to fight to the death to prove rape on women hasn't been ignored?

Society does and always has taken rape against females more seriously than against males.

I am not fighting to the death for any reason.

Are you one of those people who believe the 1 in 5 statistic?

 

[mckmas8808]

Society does and always has taken rape against females more seriously than against males.

I am not fighting to the death for any reason.

Are you one of those people who believe the 1 in 5 statistic?

I have no working knowledge of rape stats so I can't say yes or no to your question. But it's very very clear that rape is under-reported and many times when it is reported, it's not investigated well enough.

 

[Zog]

I have no working knowledge of rape stats so I can't say yes or no to your question. But it's very very clear that rape is under-reported and many times when it is reported, it's not investigated well enough.

Says who? People who didn’t report it? People who didn’t like the outcome of the investigation?

 

[mr2xxx]

Says who? People who didn’t report it? People who didn’t like the outcome of the investigation?

Here’s a good link showing some of the issues victims face when it comes to getting the proper evidence.
http://www.newsweek.com/rape-kit-un...erial-rapist-detroit-prosecutor-nation-752440

A rapist rapes on average seven to 11 times before they’re caught,” Wayne County Prosecutor Kym Worthy told the Detroit Free Press . “Of our set of 817, over 50 of them have 10 to 15 hits apiece.”

Eighty-six percent of our victims in these untested kits are people of color. You're not going to find too many blond-haired, blue eyed white women,” Worthy told the Detroit Free Press . “Because their kits are treated differently, their cases are solved."

 

[Zog]

Here’s a good link showing some of the issues victims face when it comes to getting the proper evidence.
http://www.newsweek.com/rape-kit-un...erial-rapist-detroit-prosecutor-nation-752440

So more rape kits exist than can be tested. I don't see that as ignoring rape victims but whatever.

 

[mr2xxx]

So more rape kits exist than can be tested. I don't see that as ignoring rape victims but whatever.

 

[Papa]

This is similar to workplace accusations. The accuser has the right to feel safe at the college, and its the college's job to make sure that happens or face consequences if they don't. The college can be sued for not doing anything or not doing enough. The colleges are just protecting themselves just like a business would with these type of accusations, especially if the accusations are made public. They seem to have been going to far for a long time now though.

No one has a right to feel safe. They have a right to be safe, but those aren’t necessarily the same thing.

 

[Papa]

Here’s a good link showing some of the issues victims face when it comes to getting the proper evidence.
http://www.newsweek.com/rape-kit-un...erial-rapist-detroit-prosecutor-nation-752440

Are their kits being tested because they’re blond-haired, blue eyed white women or because they live in areas with fewer occurrences and hence smaller backlogs?

 

[mr2xxx]

Are their kits being tested because they’re blond-haired, blue eyed white women or because they live in areas with fewer occurrences and hence smaller backlogs?

They don’t say, guessing part of what you say and living in poorer areas with less resources to test those kits.

 

[TrainedRage]

How many licks does it take to get to the center of a sexual assault allegation?

one....
....two
....three.

*crunch*

Three, it takes three.

 

[FStubbs]

Rape has never been ignored. An accusation is not a confirmed rape.

I went to college awhile back and even then according to the student code if you were accused of rape you were guilty of rape. As a student you had to be very selective about who and where you dated.

 

[llien]

But it's very very clear that rape is under-reported and many times when it is reported, it's not investigated well enough.

The subject is surrounded with a long string of made up statistics and 1 in 5 "raped or sexually assaulted or had drunken sex" is one of it.

An average sentence for men perpetrators of rape is 60 to 80 of those for murder, hardly something hinting at "we don't care about rape".

Given the severity of the punishment, the standards for evidence are rather high, this inevitably means that some perpetrators won't be punished. Yet, the inherent "he said, she said" nature of the cases is taken into account, so we end up with wrong convictions like this (note the length of the sentence).

Anyhow, what would be the addressing of the "not investigated well enough" issue, bar the astonishingly ignorant "always believe the accuser"?