What kind of response did she think she was going to get? That's such a backhanded compliment. I feel ya though, the first time you get rejected purely on race is always the worst one. You get used to it, but it still stings a bit when it happens. Unfortunately, the other side of the spectrum were they're into you completely based on your race isn't much better.
Sexual Preferences and Racism
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What kind of response did she think she was going to get? That's such a backhanded compliment. I feel ya though, the first time you get rejected purely on race is always the worst one. You get used to it, but it still stings a bit when it happens. Unfortunately, the other side of the spectrum were they're into you completely based on your race isn't much better.
theignoramus
Member
This is when you grab a beer or two and bang out some early Ice Cube albums, lol.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WG7U1QsUd1g
The point of this thread and previous threads is to discuss not just that the "preferences" exist and how they are racist, but where they come from as well. Everything from entertainment to societal attitudes towards different ethnic groups influence what we consider as attractive/beautiful and create these "negative preferences" of other ethnic groups. In regards to "white supremacy", in the US white people are the majority and control the majority of these influences like entertainment. Things like beauty pageants with only a handful of non white women as participants and magazine racks with only white people on the covers contributes to why "traditionally white" physical characteristics are usually favored over physical characteristics common of other ethnic groups by men and women on these dating apps, regardless of their ethnicity. Saying it's "natural" for the majority of men/women of all ethnic groups in DOWN's okcupid chart to favor white men and women and that there are no outside factors involved is silly.
Gotdatmoney
Member
I don't sweat it. Though some beer and some ice cube is a good way to spend a day.
This girl is hot as fuck, she aint ever gonna be sweating for male attention haha. Coincidentally she is one of the few gorgeous girls I just plainly have no desire to ever be in a relationship with. We've been friends for 9 years and never have I wanted anything, even more so after that statement haha
Yeah I dunno haha. I don't even think it's a compliment. Like if she doesn't like black guys how exactly did she come to that conclusion? Guess work lol. It's a clueless statement but I can't really fsult an honest response especially with how drunk we were. Anyway she is a lovely person so I don't wanna make her out like some terrible person. I just like really recognized at that moment that my race mattered more in dating than even I thought. As I said it was the first time I ever had to think maybe some of the girls that have played me off did it solely on race. I really dislike even having that thought pop up in my everyday life. It's w/e though, life haha
People that fetish a single race are also terrible. Like there is a person behind the skin tone.
Luckily there are a lot of people that aren't shitty out there. It's a shame that you had that experience but I firmly believe there are hundreds of people out there for you, whoever you might be.
I've dated lots of different types of people but I gravitate towards certain facial features, body types, etc. I think there's nothing wrong with that, but the important thing is keeping an open mind, and giving things an honest try.
I think they are, but that doesn't mean they come from malice. I think most people are somewhat racist, but it's rarely intentional. They just have certain biases or preconceived notions about certain groups without meaning to.
I think this discussion is a fantastic launching point to discuss all sorts of broader, larger issues, many of which have already been mentioned.
1) How do we draw the line between racism and preference in the modern, more subtle world? Racism is almost never as hit-you-in-the-face obvious as it may have been in 1920; the number of people actively, consciously thinking about keeping black people down are very few. Instead, modern racism is really the result of many people being a little bit racist, producing a significant effect because "a little bit racist" x 200 million white people produces a significant effect overall.
Typically, "a little bit racist" is really hard to identify. If I have 10 girlfriends in my life and 0 of them are black, is that racist? Really, really hard to tell. I may meet very few black women in the first place, for instance. If I'm a boss and I only hire 1 black guy out of 20 employees, is that racist? Well, maybe. I did hire 1 black guy, after all, so clearly I'm not 100% unwilling to hire any black people. Maybe I just didn't get many good black candidates. Maybe in the close cases where it could have gone either way I chose the white guy instead. Maybe.
2) How do we handle "a little bit racist" when that little bit is often subconscious? How do we fault someone for behaving in a racist way when they aren't consciously choosing to? The subconscious is, by definition, mostly out of our conscious control.
1) How do we draw the line between racism and preference in the modern, more subtle world? Racism is almost never as hit-you-in-the-face obvious as it may have been in 1920; the number of people actively, consciously thinking about keeping black people down are very few. Instead, modern racism is really the result of many people being a little bit racist, producing a significant effect because "a little bit racist" x 200 million white people produces a significant effect overall.
Typically, "a little bit racist" is really hard to identify. If I have 10 girlfriends in my life and 0 of them are black, is that racist? Really, really hard to tell. I may meet very few black women in the first place, for instance. If I'm a boss and I only hire 1 black guy out of 20 employees, is that racist? Well, maybe. I did hire 1 black guy, after all, so clearly I'm not 100% unwilling to hire any black people. Maybe I just didn't get many good black candidates. Maybe in the close cases where it could have gone either way I chose the white guy instead. Maybe.
2) How do we handle "a little bit racist" when that little bit is often subconscious? How do we fault someone for behaving in a racist way when they aren't consciously choosing to? The subconscious is, by definition, mostly out of our conscious control.
Self-reflection, the willingness to be wrong, and exposure to very different people's voices. And that can be a real tall order for people because some people just don't have time (or think they don't) to put in effort into the three.
The Maverick
Member
To number one, I think as society shifts and people are exposed to more cultures and experiences, we can start identifying the smaller examples of racism easier. People would be less likely to say they aren't attracted to xyz if they've grown up seeing those groups of people, and forming opinions based on those experiences as they age. If preferences are based on experiences in the developing years, then as those experiences change, then the general sentiment around preferences will as well.
I think saying "I'm attracted to girls that are at least an 8/10" isn't a problem. Saying that even if a black chick is an 8/10, and you still wouldn't consider her, then I consider that sentiment to be rooted in racism.
Gotdatmoney
Member
She's not a bad person (actually one of the most genuinely nice people I know) nor would I ever date her regardless (before this I mean) and I think that's probably why it bugged me more. When people whom you love and love you back also have thoughts like that its hard to really keep a positive perspective. The reality of life is always different from the idealized version we strive to achieve.
That said, I don't fear a life alone, far from it. There are so many girls I have met who do not fall in that realm. Rather I fear the bigger consequences. The reality that the way people view minorities colours everything they think and assume about us. Its this sort of casual racism bleeds into other aspects of life that I dont think people who dont experience even recognize exist.
R10Neymarfan
Member
So are we all genetically inclined to like whiteness now? Is white better? Are we as the human race suppose to eliminate the other shades as progress of evolution? Some of these comments make me think so. That the fact a white blonde, blue eyes person will always be desired by mostly everyone in society.
People love to think that all of their decisions, even the ignorant ones they can't explain, are all made of their own volition.
Sexual preferences are discriminatory in principle, just for starters they are inherently sexist for the overwhelming majority of the population, most people are attracted to only one gender, not to mention, attraction is clearly agist, also height-ist, and honestly all the "ists" you can think of. We discriminate, in the literal sense of the word, when looking for a sexual partner. We are not attracted to everyone equally.
How much it reflects the racism of your society is up to debate, and I don't think you can discard it completely but neither you can argue that racism is the only reason people are more attracted to a race over another. And it is certainly beyond anyone's control, you like what you like.
I've come to discover race is a weird and arbitrary thing anyway. I'm a colombian living in Brazil, strictly I am descendant from spaniards and indigenous people, so I am literally mixed-race. However in the US I would be hispanic/latino, people say that is more an ethnicity but even the article in the OP treat it as race. Back home I'm darker than most of my family, which is why my parents nicknamed me "negro", this is actually very common. The most baffling and bizarre thing however I found here in Brazil, here I am "white", a friend called me white once precisely when we were discussing attraction and when filing a police report I was identified as white in the document!
I mention this anecdotal evidence because my friends have all a clear preference for "race", however the people they have been with might be classified completely different in the US or even in Colombia. One friend, who would definitely be considered black everywhere, has told me he does not like black people, and I mostly have seen him with people with "white" features, blue eyes, white skin, that kind of thing. However other friend, who I guess would be considered mixed-race, has also said he does not like black people but he was crazy for this guy who most definitely would be considered black in the US and here, but actually in Colombia not that much. Another mixed-race friend really likes black guys, almost exclusively.
Just by looking at statistics 30% of marriages here in Brazil are mixed race while the US is like 1% or something like that. However Brazil can actually be a pretty racist country. I have the hunch the results of this study are more about segregation than racism, both can go hand in hand, but not necessarily, and your upbringing most definitely affects your preferences.
How much it reflects the racism of your society is up to debate, and I don't think you can discard it completely but neither you can argue that racism is the only reason people are more attracted to a race over another. And it is certainly beyond anyone's control, you like what you like.
I've come to discover race is a weird and arbitrary thing anyway. I'm a colombian living in Brazil, strictly I am descendant from spaniards and indigenous people, so I am literally mixed-race. However in the US I would be hispanic/latino, people say that is more an ethnicity but even the article in the OP treat it as race. Back home I'm darker than most of my family, which is why my parents nicknamed me "negro", this is actually very common. The most baffling and bizarre thing however I found here in Brazil, here I am "white", a friend called me white once precisely when we were discussing attraction and when filing a police report I was identified as white in the document!
I mention this anecdotal evidence because my friends have all a clear preference for "race", however the people they have been with might be classified completely different in the US or even in Colombia. One friend, who would definitely be considered black everywhere, has told me he does not like black people, and I mostly have seen him with people with "white" features, blue eyes, white skin, that kind of thing. However other friend, who I guess would be considered mixed-race, has also said he does not like black people but he was crazy for this guy who most definitely would be considered black in the US and here, but actually in Colombia not that much. Another mixed-race friend really likes black guys, almost exclusively.
Just by looking at statistics 30% of marriages here in Brazil are mixed race while the US is like 1% or something like that. However Brazil can actually be a pretty racist country. I have the hunch the results of this study are more about segregation than racism, both can go hand in hand, but not necessarily, and your upbringing most definitely affects your preferences.
LucidMomentum
Member
Dice//
Banned
I'm sorry this post is stupid
On topic: I'd *love* to think this will just take time and more pushing from media to get more diversity out there. I came from a super-convservative family where...they'd probably frown on me dating not-white...and they have... but I didn't give a damn, a good face and someone who makes me laugh (and treats me to a good steak and vice versa -- so long as food is involved <3 ) is good!!
Fucking environmental and media conditioning man...
I say this as a straight guy too :/.
MWS Natural
Member
Was actually thinking of making a thread about something similar to this. How in my 15+ years in corporate America many times white candidates are given the benefit of the doubt when falling short while black candidates shortcomings are always pointed out.
For example:
White Candidate: "Yes he doesn't know this essential function but I'm sure he will be able to pick it up quickly."
Black Candidates: "He doesn't have experience with this function...it's essential to doing the job!"
This is not blatant in your face racism but people do things like this without even realizing they are.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
This is a difficult topic.
Even in a perfect world without racism, people would have preferences. Humans have preferences in every arena of their life. Whether it's in-born, or through life experiences, it's quite likely that some people will like some things over others. Or rather, it's quite unlikely that people would like all options equally the same. This applies to food, art, experiences, values, films, games, operating systems, etc etc. People like various things to different degrees and it would be odd if they valued everything the same.
Even in a world without systematic racism, someone might have a good experience with a woman with black hair when they are young and impressionable, and that leads into their attraction to black haired women when they are old... And because black hair is conditional upon ethnicity, they therefore have a preference for an ethnic type that doesn't necessarily stem from society's unequal treatment of ethnic traits.
But obviously, systematic racism DOES augment these experiences... Heavily so.
So it's just impossible to separate "legitimate" preference from "systemic racism" preferences.
Speaking for myself, I feel pretty good about my position. In recent history I have felt attraction to those of many diverse ethnicities, and sure, I would consider dating any of them. Black, white, Hispanic, middle eastern. Yeah I think they're all hot and dateable. I'd be happy to be with and even have kids with any type. There's no ethnicity on the planet that is off limits in that way.
But still, I am one of those guys who goes for Asian women when usually given a choice. And that is because I am a person with my own unique experience that has shaped me that way, just as well all are when it comes to any other preference in our lives. Can I say that systemic racism has no role in my experience? Probably not. But i can say that even without systemic racism, I would have had my own experience that motivates some kind of tendency towards this or that. At the least I have considered all ethnicities as datable. No one is off limits. When I say "preference" I mean I go for what I particularly like, not that I have any rules about what I don't like.
Even in a perfect world without racism, people would have preferences. Humans have preferences in every arena of their life. Whether it's in-born, or through life experiences, it's quite likely that some people will like some things over others. Or rather, it's quite unlikely that people would like all options equally the same. This applies to food, art, experiences, values, films, games, operating systems, etc etc. People like various things to different degrees and it would be odd if they valued everything the same.
Even in a world without systematic racism, someone might have a good experience with a woman with black hair when they are young and impressionable, and that leads into their attraction to black haired women when they are old... And because black hair is conditional upon ethnicity, they therefore have a preference for an ethnic type that doesn't necessarily stem from society's unequal treatment of ethnic traits.
But obviously, systematic racism DOES augment these experiences... Heavily so.
So it's just impossible to separate "legitimate" preference from "systemic racism" preferences.
Speaking for myself, I feel pretty good about my position. In recent history I have felt attraction to those of many diverse ethnicities, and sure, I would consider dating any of them. Black, white, Hispanic, middle eastern. Yeah I think they're all hot and dateable. I'd be happy to be with and even have kids with any type. There's no ethnicity on the planet that is off limits in that way.
But still, I am one of those guys who goes for Asian women when usually given a choice. And that is because I am a person with my own unique experience that has shaped me that way, just as well all are when it comes to any other preference in our lives. Can I say that systemic racism has no role in my experience? Probably not. But i can say that even without systemic racism, I would have had my own experience that motivates some kind of tendency towards this or that. At the least I have considered all ethnicities as datable. No one is off limits. When I say "preference" I mean I go for what I particularly like, not that I have any rules about what I don't like.
brainchild
Banned
Not a fan of the liberal conflation of racism with a predisposition for racial discrimination in this thread; there is a difference between the two.
Racism is about superiority, and is not mutually inclusive with having a predisposition for racial discrimination that would govern and inform a person's physiological responses, such as sexual attraction.
There is a wide gamut of variables that regulate sexual attraction and stimulation (many of them operating at a subconscious level) and most of them have nothing to do with whether the subject of interest has a penis or a vagina! Many of them have to do with physical features and attributes, such as body frame, height, skin elasticity, eye size, facial structure, vocal tone and timbre, body odor, and as you might have guessed, eye/hair/SKIN color, among many other things. The significance and weight that each feature carries in terms of influencing sexual attraction will vary from person to person, but they are important factors nonetheless.
It's important to make the distinction between racism and racial discrimination because one comes from social constructs (which are malleable), while the other (in the context in sexual attraction) comes from genetic/environmental predispositions (which are immutable). If someone isn't sexually attracted to Asian people, it doesn't mean that this person finds this race of people to be inferior to other races (which would be racism), but that he/she simply doesn't have a physiological response of sexual stimulation when he/she encounters an Asian person, due to the defining features that make them Asian inherently taking the place of features that would otherwise sexually stimulate him/her.
Is it discrimination based on race? Absolutely, but it's about as wrong as a heterosexual person discriminating against their own sex when choosing who they want to fuck. In other words, it's natural, and perfectly normal and acceptable.
Racism is about superiority, and is not mutually inclusive with having a predisposition for racial discrimination that would govern and inform a person's physiological responses, such as sexual attraction.
There is a wide gamut of variables that regulate sexual attraction and stimulation (many of them operating at a subconscious level) and most of them have nothing to do with whether the subject of interest has a penis or a vagina! Many of them have to do with physical features and attributes, such as body frame, height, skin elasticity, eye size, facial structure, vocal tone and timbre, body odor, and as you might have guessed, eye/hair/SKIN color, among many other things. The significance and weight that each feature carries in terms of influencing sexual attraction will vary from person to person, but they are important factors nonetheless.
It's important to make the distinction between racism and racial discrimination because one comes from social constructs (which are malleable), while the other (in the context in sexual attraction) comes from genetic/environmental predispositions (which are immutable). If someone isn't sexually attracted to Asian people, it doesn't mean that this person finds this race of people to be inferior to other races (which would be racism), but that he/she simply doesn't have a physiological response of sexual stimulation when he/she encounters an Asian person, due to the defining features that make them Asian inherently taking the place of features that would otherwise sexually stimulate him/her.
Is it discrimination based on race? Absolutely, but it's about as wrong as a heterosexual person discriminating against their own sex when choosing who they want to fuck. In other words, it's natural, and perfectly normal and acceptable.
Well... The study demonstrated that racially discriminating sexual preferences are correlated with racist scores on the quick discrimination index, so there's a question of how natural it is.
That said, that someone is racist and has discriminatory sexual preferences and that the two are correlated does not entail that they both have the same solution. My guess is that exposing people to "new voices" etc. may work better changing beliefs than sexual desire. For example, thinking "down boy" when I get random wood has little to no effect.
brainchild
Banned
Correlation does not imply causation. Uncertainty is good. The 'incontrovertible truth' as implied by the OP is not good. I presented my case for why I disagree with the inherent implication of racism solely based on racially discriminating sexual preferences.
At best, it's a possible issue for some people, but it by no means is conclusive or representative of all people whose sexual preferences incorporate racial discrimination.
Damerman
Member
LOL
seriously? sexual orientation has fundamental biological implications like whether you like penis or vagina... that is structural.
discrimination based on race is superficial at best.
what reality are you pulling this bullshit from? what the fuck am i reading? how do you explain overwhelming dislike for black features among cultural melting pots, but not the same dislike in homogeneous african countries? how do you explain growing interracial marriage in the United states?
what the fuck are you talking about bro?
Okay, but when it comes to your proof, I'm sure you have it, but where is the evidence that preference for certain factors is genetically/environmentally predisposed and that race is one of those factors? I'm aware of the ideal hip to waist ratio, but as I understand it, that ratio preference applies across cultures and races, suggesting it isn't tied to race.
Edit: re-read the studies on WHR and I am wrong. They do differ across cultures. That still doesn't settle the origin of those tastes.
More generally, I agree that people are attracted to certain features, but the very features you mention vary widely across the groups typically identified as a race. The variation from Sudanese to Kenyan to Ethiopian within "black" or Punjabi to Bengali to Sri Lankan within "indian" are clear examples of wide variability of features within our social construct of race.
If you are talking about discrimination when finding sexual partners then that is the kind of discrimination that is entirely superficial, it doesn't limit itself to just race, everything it discriminates it does so on a basic, superficial, purely physical level.
What melting pots are you talking about? because it sounds to me you only have data on the US, as I mentioned countries like Brazil are very, very different.
Bright Side of Life
Member
This really just boils down to the difference between excluding groups of people for xyz reason and not viewing them as equals (racism/sexism/ism) VS being discriminatory judging only on superficial appearance or stereotypes given a situation ie:
"All dark, black bushy haired people (Indian, Middle Eastern, etc) are Muslims and terrorists"
VS
"Every time I go to 7-11, there's a Indian looking dude there."
It's NOT a matter of isolation or homogeneous or whatever because THOSE are excuses, people change, they can move, they choose to think for themselves, whatever, if you are getting shade thrown on you or people are putting you on blast it's because your opinion is different from the herd/minority so you better be ready to stand up for opinion.
"All dark, black bushy haired people (Indian, Middle Eastern, etc) are Muslims and terrorists"
VS
"Every time I go to 7-11, there's a Indian looking dude there."
It's NOT a matter of isolation or homogeneous or whatever because THOSE are excuses, people change, they can move, they choose to think for themselves, whatever, if you are getting shade thrown on you or people are putting you on blast it's because your opinion is different from the herd/minority so you better be ready to stand up for opinion.
Provocative thread.
I can't really begin to comment on those who do harbor such preferences nor understand where they come from. But I'd like to share my experiences as a white guy in NYC. I have dated outside my race and religion more often than not:
My current girlfriend is of Asian descent.
Before her, I dated a white girl.
Before her, I dated a Latina girl who I was off and on with for years. Sprinkled throughout that period of being off and on with that person, I dated a girl of Indian descent and another white girl.
Before all of that, I had a relationship with a black girl.
Prior to her, I had a puppy-love crush on a white girl who never reciprocated.
So, personally, it seems that I've never tried to limit myself and I consider myself to have been fortunate to be with stunning women throughout the past 10 years or so of my dating life. I think you can learn a lot from dating someone who is different from you and outside of your preconceptions.
Yes, it's important to have standards and not just date anyone. And yes, it's okay to only date people who you are attracted to on a sexual level. But there's probably something deeper going on if you find yourself unable to be attracted to anyone of a particular race. And if that's the case, you could probably benefit from trying to examine what that thing is and where it comes from. Because that probably isn't natural in my humble opinion. I think has to come from somewhere.
I can't really begin to comment on those who do harbor such preferences nor understand where they come from. But I'd like to share my experiences as a white guy in NYC. I have dated outside my race and religion more often than not:
My current girlfriend is of Asian descent.
Before her, I dated a white girl.
Before her, I dated a Latina girl who I was off and on with for years. Sprinkled throughout that period of being off and on with that person, I dated a girl of Indian descent and another white girl.
Before all of that, I had a relationship with a black girl.
Prior to her, I had a puppy-love crush on a white girl who never reciprocated.
So, personally, it seems that I've never tried to limit myself and I consider myself to have been fortunate to be with stunning women throughout the past 10 years or so of my dating life. I think you can learn a lot from dating someone who is different from you and outside of your preconceptions.
Yes, it's important to have standards and not just date anyone. And yes, it's okay to only date people who you are attracted to on a sexual level. But there's probably something deeper going on if you find yourself unable to be attracted to anyone of a particular race. And if that's the case, you could probably benefit from trying to examine what that thing is and where it comes from. Because that probably isn't natural in my humble opinion. I think has to come from somewhere.
Gotdatmoney
Member
People have been making this argument but not all things are made equal. Choice in sexual partners is discriminatory on "shallow" factors to a degree but people do not discriminate in who they will date based entirely on one physical trait in the way they do for race. Preference is not synonymous with deal breaker. Its not a deal breaker if someone has black hair or grey eyes or a big nose in general even if those may not be desired traits by someone. Its an elimination of consideration if you are not white. That is not preference. That is racism. There is no set of features that universally define a black or asian person to such a degree.
Your environment shapes your preferences far more than your encoded biology. That has been proven over and over. Its not valid to wave your hands and say "oh dating and sexual attraction are discrimatory by nature so this isn't an issue" as if social conditioning is not why we view particular things in a negative fashion.
This is literally in contradiction to almost every psych study I have ever read. It literally reads like "all these other races besides white are inferior by nature" and its actually laughable that you are trying to position itas nature as opposrd to social constructs manipulating peoples perceptions like a pupet. It is not normal for a heterogeneous nation to have a dominant attraction to one set of features that permeates through all races and cultures inits populace. That's absurd. Its not biology.
brainchild
Banned
Yes, liking a penis or vagina does have fundamental implications rooted in biology, but they aren't the only factors that contribute to sexual attraction. If you have trouble understanding this, rest assured that the internet is at your disposal and is rife with information regarding the complexity of sexual attraction. I'm positive you'll find it elucidating.
All physical stimuli is superficial, so I'm not really sure why that's such a point of contention for you. If you're sexually attracted to a penis or vagina, it isn't because of how profound you find it be on an intellectual level, it's because you're brain physiologically responds to it in a sexual way. There are other forms of stimuli that elicit similar responses, like the physical characteristics I discussed earlier, including a person's race.
Anyway, let me be clear in saying that I'm not saying that racism isn't a factor for some people. Clearly, that seems to be the case. The problem arises when that becomes a foregone conclusion for anyone whose sexual preference involves racial discrimination. What you need to understand is that discrimination isn't an inherently bad behavior, and is quite necessary for humans in many circumstances, so it shouldn't be conflated with racism, because objectively speaking, they aren't the same thing.
As for why there's a disproportionate amount of racial discrimination against black features in diverse regions compared to homogenous regions, my guess would be an inconsistency amongst the sample groups. Perhaps there were more racists in the diverse groups than in the homogenous groups. The point is that we don't know for sure, so it's best to not definitively conclude that people are racist when the statistics weren't even properly controlled to eliminate other possibilities.
Damerman
Member
how is brazil different? the common thread in all these racially diverse societies is that blacker features are less desirable. It's less desirable because the only media they consume actively ignites(i.e. her beautiful, straight blond hair blew in the wind, her fair skin and rose lips) their desire for white phenotype. but since race is a social construct that is failing before our eyes you see phenomenon's where a person is "cute for a black person" or "cute for an asian person" and you are seeing them more often as American society becomes less infatuated with white people.
I don't know how it works in brazil, but I would hazard a guess that it's just like my home country haiti where the white and the Mullato/metisse are the ruling class and they decide what is attractive through wealth and power.
Gotdatmoney
Member
You're hypothesis is that all the PhD educated psychologists and researchers did not do 1st year statistics and search their sample size for bias? That's what you're going with?
The hoops people will jump through. I swear.
Damerman
Member
I'm not conflating the two. In fact, i don't think anyone has at this point. The article was precisely attacking people who put abrasive discriminatory preferences on their online dating profiles that come off as racist.
what I'm gathering from your post is that people who are involved in interracial relationships are some how unshackled from their subconscious and are entirely using their full consciousness to determine who they are attracted to which makes no fucking sense. Discrimination is fine when choosing a sexual partner... but basing that discrimination on race was a mistake exacerbated by social constructs and we need to get rid of it. some people commit that mistake(people who only want to date white people) and some people don't commit that mistake (people who are attracted to more specific physical features rather than some elusive "race" category), you can't just go around and say that its "natural" to discriminate based on race when there are so many instances in today's society that prove that it isn't. Heck, even when you consider the people who do racially discriminate it's sometimes discrimination against their own race... asian women wanting white men, black women wanting no blacks... so how does that work if social conditioning was supposed to instill in them an "immutable" attraction to their own race?
if you are attracted to a person with blue eyes and you use that to determine that you aren't attracted to blacks or asians, what happens when you have a case like Vanessa Williams (pictured bellow) who might identify as black or mixed race? do you continue to discriminate using your fallible categories for dating or do you reevaluate how you approach what you find attractive?
brainchild
Banned
If you acknowledge that the physiological response to sexual stimuli (like finding a penis or vagina sexually attractive) is inherently genetic/environmental, then you have already answered your own question. I do have a source from the National Institute of Health that goes into detail about this process here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2739403/
Basically, physical appearance and presence contributes to sexual attraction, and that could entail just about any aspect of the physical human body, which would obviously include race.
You've completely misinterpreted me. I'm only talking about sexual attraction, racial discrimination beyond that (such as dating) would likely indicate racism, I agree. However, there are always exceptions, such as people who only date people that they know they'll be able to have sex with. I don't see anything wrong with that.
No, my statement is based on the fact that not all studies can be properly controlled. This is why psychology is a little flaky as a field of science, since it's impossible to control for certain factors due to the inherent nature of human subjectivity. You can't control for a non-racist group. It's impossible.
Again, this "it's completely natural" line of thought would be "arguable" if we were talking about one ethnic group showing preference for the physical characteristics of their own ethnic group over all others in all/most cases, but that's not what's being discussed in this thread vs multiple ethnic groups having comments like "No Asians" in their profile, including members of the same ethnic group. Example, there are posters posting anecdotal situations of black women posting in dating app profiles "No Black men". This line of thought doesn't hold much weight when you look at the charts DOWN posted/fully read the OP and the article he posted.
Always-honest
Banned
I'm sure it happens to all kind of peole depending on where you live (in the world). Racism everywhere. Or maybe just ignorance and social conditioning.
Why not do this test?
A man and a woman go on a blind date. They meet each other and talk between a curtain so that neither one can see the other. They talk for about an hour and both get along with each other very well and both initially feel that they want to date the other person. The curtain is then removed so that their appearances are revealed. Assume that both people are attractive in the kind of way that most people would find attractive. This is a subjective feeling, but there are many "attractive traits" that people can have that are more objectively considered attractive to human sensibilities. If one person then says "oh I didn't know you were X race. Sorry, I don't date X people. I just don't find them attractive", is that person racist?
A man and a woman go on a blind date. They meet each other and talk between a curtain so that neither one can see the other. They talk for about an hour and both get along with each other very well and both initially feel that they want to date the other person. The curtain is then removed so that their appearances are revealed. Assume that both people are attractive in the kind of way that most people would find attractive. This is a subjective feeling, but there are many "attractive traits" that people can have that are more objectively considered attractive to human sensibilities. If one person then says "oh I didn't know you were X race. Sorry, I don't date X people. I just don't find them attractive", is that person racist?
Brazil is very racist, specially for a country with such a big black population, however in terms of dating and relationships mixed race couples are completely ubiquitous, also the lines between races blur considerably given how mixed people are. As I mentioned almost a third of marriages is mixed race.
As I said I've heard from my friends the "no blacks" thing, however in practice it could not be further from the truth, they have dated black people.
Damerman
Member
yes...unequivocally, in my opinion.
brainchild
Banned
I think I see what happened here. I came into this thread with the express intent on clarifying the distinction between racism and racial discrimination, as I noticed that the term 'racism' was being used in the place of 'racial discrimination' throughout this thread, and I thought it was worth pointing out.
I suppose my mistake was not clarifying that I wasn't necessarily speaking against the premise of the article itself with regard to online dating sites, but more to the tangential discussion taking place in this thread about people being racist if their sexual preferences exclude certain races. I apologize for not making that clear.
I suppose my mistake was not clarifying that I wasn't necessarily speaking against the premise of the article itself with regard to online dating sites, but more to the tangential discussion taking place in this thread about people being racist if their sexual preferences exclude certain races. I apologize for not making that clear.
Gotdatmoney
Member
It's a meaningless separation. You want to date people you are sexually attracted to. There is no world where people would rather their partner not sexually attract them. Sexual attraction does not have a hard coded biological aspect to the degree you witness in North America. It's largely a social construct.
You're argument is that the studies are useless. Because you can't actually believe dozen upon dozens of these studies that have all reached the same conclusion never factored in elements of control in population, a simple first year research methods concept. It is not impossible to provide checks and balances to identify biases such as racism in a group. Its also wrong of you to imply you have figured.out the science is all flawed because fully educated people never thought of a first year experiemental property. You're playing this off as if what you are statimg is open minded as opposed to pure conspiracy. To throw shade at all this research that reaches the same conclusion because.maybes and you will never knows is not intelligent. Its pure silly.
brainchild
Banned
At first glance, it would certainly seem that way, considering how the person worded it, but it isn't definitively racist. The person could legitimately not be sexually attracted to him/her, and chooses not to date people that he/she isn't sexually attracted to simply because he/she doesn't see a future in a relationship without sex.
Still, factoring in probability and practicality, the person is most probably racist.
I wouldn't say unequivocally, but most likely, yeah.
Can somebody feel that 100% of a particular race is unattractive without it having some sort of racist attitude behind it? When does "you are unattractive because you are X race" go from disliking particular physical traits to lifting people as unattractive regardless of actual appearance due to race?
brainchild
Banned
'meaningless' or not, there is a difference, and the concepts shouldn't be conflated.
You can identify bias, but you cannot remove it, nor can you prove the non-existence of bias within the context of human testimony describing subjective experiences. This is not about me knowing more than anyone else. It's basic logic.
Anyway, the argument has become circular at this point. I'll be happy to bow out of the discussion and allow you guys to get back on topic.
brainchild
Banned
Of course. Certain physical traits of a given race can completely preclude physical traits that a person would have otherwise been attracted to had the person been of a different race.
Though there is one qualifier. I'm going off of the assumption of the APPEARANCE of race. In other words, the people in question possess the traits that would typically identify them under a particular race. Obviously, saying you're unattracted to an Asian person who doesn't possess any physical traits that would indicate that they're Asian is clearly racist.
Gotdatmoney
Member
There is literally nothing circular, you're arguimg biological that does not exist nor would be supported as a causation for the phenomina we see in western culture. And you also do not understand anything about psychology or research methods given you are arguing things that any bachelor degree psychology student would account for in experimentation let alone fully educated publishing researchers.
You are arguimg feelings here and throwing away science because no scientist would ever touch the idea that race based discrimination at the biological level (which exiet to some degree) could ever be meaningful against the observed trends in modern day life and the piles of psychological data that imply this is largely social.
I'm not even trying to be mean but what you arguimg is exactly the enemy of progress in the field. You can't play off psychological studies to point to biology that would never argue explanatoons for the tremd we see in society. This has very little root in biology.
Our attractions aren't so digital. Every race has a diverse set of physical characteristics. To say you do not like 100% of a race because you don't like some of the characteristics is lotting all people of a race to have those characteristics. This isn't an innocent "oh I just don't like big lips/noses, sorry" thing. This is viewing a race as innately unattractive because they are a particular race.
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