cj_iwakura
Member
Tamotsu Shinohara, also designed Napaea.
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Shin Megami Tensei Community Thread: Be Your True Demon
- Thread starter cj_iwakura
- Start date
Tamotsu Shinohara, also designed Napaea.
I hope it's not lost because it was a guest artist then. Minotaur was one of my favorite new demons from the SMTIV universe games.
Judging by the SMT Switch trailer, I would guess many of the new Doi demons will stick around, some cases for the better. That trailer did show Doi's Odin, but had Kaneko's Archangels were there.
snow in jamaica
Member
Shinohara also did Chemtrail. He did all of the most decent ones. The Minotaur even has a labyrinth painted on its body!
Fertility isn't really grounds for titillation by itself. It would be a more appropriate direction for, say, Freya, a goddess of fertility but also of love and sex. It also gets pretty weird when certain demons are more provocative than Succubus and Lilim.
Dagda, Maitreya, and Inanna would ideally be rebuilt from their concept art (Maitreya should also only be a pacifistic NPC). Adramelech, Sukuna-Hikona, and Mephisto are very welcome as they are but it'd be cool if Adramelech switched his heating pan for a little magnifying glass. Krishna could use a redesign but I wouldn't mind much if he didn't get one.
My favorite Odin has been hanging from a cyber tree since 1996. His occult antics take precedence here over warrior god cliches for a welcome change of pace. Odin is for the most part a lone, wandering wizardly weirdo seeking wisdom at whatever cost. This design references his self-sacrifice and discovery of the runes, which involved his hanging from a tree branch for nine days and nine nights. The runes, mind over matter, self-sacrifice, and sacrifice of his lower self to his higher self are all elements in the design.
Fertility isn't really grounds for titillation by itself. It would be a more appropriate direction for, say, Freya, a goddess of fertility but also of love and sex. It also gets pretty weird when certain demons are more provocative than Succubus and Lilim.
Dagda, Maitreya, and Inanna would ideally be rebuilt from their concept art (Maitreya should also only be a pacifistic NPC). Adramelech, Sukuna-Hikona, and Mephisto are very welcome as they are but it'd be cool if Adramelech switched his heating pan for a little magnifying glass. Krishna could use a redesign but I wouldn't mind much if he didn't get one.
My favorite Odin has been hanging from a cyber tree since 1996. His occult antics take precedence here over warrior god cliches for a welcome change of pace. Odin is for the most part a lone, wandering wizardly weirdo seeking wisdom at whatever cost. This design references his self-sacrifice and discovery of the runes, which involved his hanging from a tree branch for nine days and nine nights. The runes, mind over matter, self-sacrifice, and sacrifice of his lower self to his higher self are all elements in the design.
NeonZ
Member
There have been violent sects inspired by Maitreya though. Although the figure itself is originally non-violent, that sometimes ended up sidelined by the promise of the new age that would start with him.
snow in jamaica
Member
Yeah but he wouldn't represent the organization that way.
Maitreya should be a Chaos-aligned, Lucifer enthusiast, heavy smoker Yakuza leader who shouts the most hateful bile at you, uses children as hostages in his boss fights and powers himself up by eating a 1000 puppy souls in the next game just for shits and giggles. Shin Megami Tensei's own Nuclear Ghandi.
As much as I like Power Ranger Odin, Soul Hacker's Odin is indeed his most appropriate design and definitely better than underwears Odin. I'd like to see a 3D rendition of him, but between Hashino sticking with Nocturne designs and the Maniax team doing their own thing, I don't think it's going to happen.
Besides the ones listed, I think Chemtrail should make a return too, and I could take Napaea too, though you could argue she's a bit redundant because of Pixie.
As much as I like Power Ranger Odin, Soul Hacker's Odin is indeed his most appropriate design and definitely better than underwears Odin. I'd like to see a 3D rendition of him, but between Hashino sticking with Nocturne designs and the Maniax team doing their own thing, I don't think it's going to happen.
Besides the ones listed, I think Chemtrail should make a return too, and I could take Napaea too, though you could argue she's a bit redundant because of Pixie.
I wasn't crazy about the design of Chemtrail, but love the idea behind it. With it being unknown if it exists because people believe in the conspiracy or is the cause of it.
I honestly want to see more conspiracy-based or non-science demons. Maybe do something on fan death or something like that.
snow in jamaica
Member
A redesigned Chemtrail and a Rumor race would be good. Jersey Devil, Turbo-Granny, and others could return. Mothman could migrate there. Debuting could be a reptilian in possession of a Nixon Halloween mask or something.
Don't you get some unique skills as well?
cj_iwakura
Member
Not that I recall? There's one in the endgame that you only get if you get Heat in your team instead of Roland, based on your choices in DDS1.
Only if we get the Loch Ness monster too.
To answer your question, yes. It's also meant to be a truly "badass" moment. It's extremely stupid. Yet another way that DLC completely misses the point in its attempt to pander to older series fans.
cj_iwakura
Member
Is he actually difficult? The last superboss I remember being actually tough was the Demiurge from SJ.
He's absurdly difficult, it's not even fun and I'm sure the game expects you to be very far into NG+ to even stand a chance, because I had a great party after beating the game on War and had to lower the difficulty to the lowest setting to stand a chance lol.
But yes, the whole DLC is a mess both in tone and difficulty balance. Really weird "fanservice".
Despite beating every single story DLC in IV I didn't really feel compelled to do the same in Apocalypse. The main campaign had enough to satisfy my itch for difficult boss fights so I didn't bother with DLC. I watched the beach one out of morbid curiosity on youtube and it isn't even good at being entertaining in a fanservicey way. They describe how much fun everyone is having but you barely get to see them actually interacting and having said fun lol
Glad to hear the protagonists DLC is bad too, makes me feel a little better for skipping it.
Glad to hear the protagonists DLC is bad too, makes me feel a little better for skipping it.
snow in jamaica
Member
They've really pulled out all the stops in derailing his character. It's baffling.
In SMT1 and 2 he was just a science-y humanistic representative. Because he's fucking Stephen Hawking. But now...
Thanks for confirming. Nothing like using a harmful trope to ruin a well-established character. Guess I won't bother with that DLC.
NeonZ
Member
He's supposed to be
an enlightened Buddha-like character now transcending worlds according to the developer's notes. Of course, something like that really should have no place in the SMT universe, especially when he's going around and telling the player to destroy the "true enemy" and the narrative backs him up without any irony.
I thought the DLC at least would be about
him turning out to have a dark side, and need to be stopped, but it's just a test to bring the various Heroes back to life, which removes a lot of the satisfaction of beating him.
I really hope almost everything related to overall lore that Apocalypse added to the series gets ignored afterwards. Even small things like demons being unable to kill demons just hurt the overall worldview.
Actually there are a few things are consistent with other games,
even the need from a Godslayer
YHVH implies this at the end of SMT 2, if people still remember him, the Great Will will bring him back eventually. This bring other question, if humanity is born from gods affairs, why our beliefs has a tremendous impact on them?
I still hold the theory that all demons of the same species share memories but are still separate as far as people go. Either that or fusion is just trading two demons into the expanse for another, rather than actually fusing them.
I think the former is more likely though, as it would explain demons remembering you after you fused them off.
I think the former is more likely though, as it would explain demons remembering you after you fused them off.
NeonZ
Member
I'm not saying that everything in Apocalypse was bad, I just said its additions were bad. It had already been established that at least some demons were created by belief or even rumors, but I don't see how that somehow extends into demons being unable to kill demons.
In fact, regarding the whole observation issue, I didn't like the idea that demons were some pre-existing elements of nature that gain individually thanks to human observation. That seems unnecessary, and pretty much only exists to explain
Dagda's motivation.
Regarding your question,
if you go by Apocalypse's lore, according to one of the DLC files, it seems like even creator gods like YHVH are actually molded by the power of human observation and can't exist without it. So, they probably aren't actual creators under that point of view. According to the DLC entry, unlike said in the main story, even YHVH is shaped by Observation and exists due to it, what he avoids with his reclusion is just the power of words, which is likely why his name is garbled.
So I'd like to finally play DDM: Megami Tensei, and I'm not sure whether to play the Famicom releases or Kyuuyaku. I've played my share of Famicom RPGs so there's no real issue there, but is Kyuuyaku objectively the better experience? Do either of the two have anything remarkable that the other does not?
cj_iwakura
Member
I think the FC one has better music.
The MMO, or Giten Megami Tensei?
Giten Megami Tensei, definitely was not Imagine.
I see now where you were coming from, Hylian7. I thought the first 3 bosses in P5 stroke a pretty good balance between scripted moments and freeform fighting, specially the 2nd boss, but having beaten the 4th boss yesterday I definitely thought it was too heavily scripted for its own sake. An interesting change of pace nonetheless and I do appreciate the spectacle, but I hope it doesn't become the norm going forward. If it does, then it better give you more versatility on how to approach it. The fight against the 4th boss was a bit too telegraphed and more about managing buffs/debuffs/heal inbetween "attack" phases.
At least the minibosses have stepped up.
was great and actually gave me more trouble than his Nocturne incarnation. Then again he never bullshitted me like in that one infamous video. 
At least the minibosses have stepped up.
Mot
snow in jamaica
Member
They really lean too much toward redundant and convoluted in-universe explanations, including for things that are already justified in myth or elsewhere. They should chill, let some things be indefinite, and let symbols and subtext do the talking.
And that's just scratching the surface.
cj_iwakura
Member
http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/megaten/spinoffs.htm
Giten Megami Tensei: Tōkyō Mokushiroku is something of an oddball. Unlike the rest of the series, it's never seen life on a console - it was originally released for the PC98, then upgraded for Windows 98. It seems to have been published by ASCII and based off the artwork/music of the rest of the series (Kazuma Kaneko is credited as "original character designs", and they're definitely reminiscent of the designs from the Super Famicom games. There is also a robotic dog in there.) As far as I can tell, it starts off similarly to Megami Tensei II - as a young boy living in a shelter, you and your friends are training to be Devil Busters. Everything seems to be okay, until you begin your training, when one of the programs seems to go out of control. And that's about all I've been able to figure out. There's a lot of obnoxious fetch questing and some very heavy Japanese, so I'm lost on most of it.
The graphics in the Windows 98 version are smooth scrolling, although the interface is both keyboard driven (for movement) and mouse-driven (for selecting from menus.) Unlike the rest of the series, character and enemies are visible on the screen at all times, though they aren't scaled properly when you move, so it looks a little silly. The battle system seems to be a weird mix between turn-based and real-time, as enemies will attack you from across the room before you engage them. It's incredibly clunky, especially when issuing orders, but it's definitely a cool idea. The music is a bit abrasive, but much of it is very similar to older Megami Tensei titles, despite being completely original. Unfortunately, the standard MIDI format means it doesn't sound nearly as cool as the SFC titles. All around, it's unfortunate that this one is so obscure (Japanese PC games are very difficult and expensive to find, although you can find copies floating around the internet), though I certainly wish it were less confusing.
snow in jamaica
Member
http://f46.aaacafe.ne.jp/~aqul/aton/giten/index.html (watch for nipples i guess)
Giten has some neat, luxuriously big sprites.
Giten has some neat, luxuriously big sprites.
Eh, good enough for me. Thanks.
In the west? I guess so, yes. There's a lot of nostalgia for Nocturne and it remains one of the most singular SMT experiences.
I think Persona 2 is a step below those and the DDS duology/Strange Journey. Despite all the praise for its story and characters, even the fans don't seem too fond of its gameplay. It would probably have a very strong case if it ever got a proper remake though.
In Japan I've heard some people say Nocturne was actually a divisive entry back when it came out, but I have no idea how they look at the game now. Then there's the fact that 1 and 2 are pretty popular over there, so that muddies the line even further. If I had to take a wild guess, I think 2 is still Japan's favorite? If someone from there could chime in, I'm actually pretty curious to know.
If we're talking about the larger megaten franchise, the Hashino Personas are obviously a lot more popular, so you could say they're the most beloved.
In Japan I've heard some people say Nocturne was actually a divisive entry back when it came out, but I have no idea how they look at the game now. Then there's the fact that 1 and 2 are pretty popular over there, so that muddies the line even further. If I had to take a wild guess, I think 2 is still Japan's favorite? If someone from there could chime in, I'm actually pretty curious to know.
Yeah, I know these discussions pretty much have to discount P3-5 since those are on a different level. I feel like Nocturne strikes a pretty nice balance between the series' roots while still having a more "modern" presentation. I must confess I haven't actually beaten it though.
I spoke with a Japanese Megaten fan once and they denied this, saying that Nocturne has a reputation as one of the best RPGs ever made over there. I know that Aeena here on Neogaf had that reaction, but I'm guessing people extrapolated that opinion to mean that all Japan felt that way.
cj_iwakura
Member
Wasn't the reason Maniacs was made was because Nocturne disappointed people?
This is kind of my understanding as well. Original Nocturne got mixed reactions from the fanbase (and, from an interview I read, middling-ish sales) > Maniax came out and improved it on many areas > japanese fans warmed up to the game over time. If it's rightfully seen as one of the greats now then that makes me happy. Though it still leaves the question of whether or not it's more beloved than 1 and 2. If Aeana or Shouta could chime in on the subject that'd be cool
Consider what was--or rather, what wasn't--present in Nocturne's original 2003 release. It eschewed traditional alignments, factions and conflicts, cyberpunk aesthetics, and even continuity. This was all very intentionally tied to the game's themes of inversion, but surely the changes to the formula were a shock and left some bad taste in certain mouths.
Then consider what was added in Maniacs less than a year later: big ol' Metatron and Beelzebub battles, Fiends, and a new ending that implies a typical Law vs. Chaos fracas. All additions to address a relative lack of elements from SMT1 and 2, with very little of it expounding upon the the nature of the Vortex World other than the elucidations of the Lady in Black. TDE even completely undermines the events and themes of the original version by destroying everything, and is by far the most popular outcome because it is perceived as the "most SMT" out of all the other Reason choices.
Maniacs definitely addressed fan concerns and certainly remains a better version of the game overall, but at the cost of what the original version was trying to say and do.
Then consider what was added in Maniacs less than a year later: big ol' Metatron and Beelzebub battles, Fiends, and a new ending that implies a typical Law vs. Chaos fracas. All additions to address a relative lack of elements from SMT1 and 2, with very little of it expounding upon the the nature of the Vortex World other than the elucidations of the Lady in Black. TDE even completely undermines the events and themes of the original version by destroying everything, and is by far the most popular outcome because it is perceived as the "most SMT" out of all the other Reason choices.
Maniacs definitely addressed fan concerns and certainly remains a better version of the game overall, but at the cost of what the original version was trying to say and do.
cj_iwakura
Member
That's an interesting outlook, but it's hard to picture the game without the added content. It all feels integral.
For the western audience, it's even harder to imagine it without the Maniax content because that was all the US and Europe got. Granted that isn't really a bad thing, but certainly changes perspective.
Well, think of it another way: Have we gotten anything but Law/Neutral/Chaos since Nocturne? Apocalypse was just a spin on the standard L/N/C conflict, whereas in Nocturne that specifically didn't matter (except on TDE).
The series needs to do something different with its alignment systems, but in particularly mixing up who the alignment representatives and factions are, philosophies, etc. Okada, Kaneko, et al. realized that in 2003 but Atlus has since backpedaled on trying new things. I have my doubts SMT HD will try to reinvent the wheel; something like Apocalypse's "remix" will probably be as brave as they're willing to be.
cj_iwakura
Member
Sadly, SegAtlus are going to stick with safe and profitable. Look at Waifu SJ.
snow in jamaica
Member
That is beautiful. Next SMT to feature the Satan Phase system.
FULL SATAN
HALF SATAN
NEW SATAN
FULL SATAN
HALF SATAN
NEW SATAN
CrimsonFist
Member
It's from a famitsu preview, so fine to link:
I was thinking about agriculture, and yep I was fine about her
From Wikipedia:
The cereal in her right hand show her origin and it's pretty straightforward, but the thing she's carrying in her left hand is very Megaten-ish. I like her!