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[Golden_Pigeon]

This is very rich these days when Saudi Arabia just started another Gulf region crisis by ganging up GCC on Qatar. This even ignoring the fact that Saudi Arabia is as involved as Iran in the Syria situation, just on another side.

Is there KSA boots in Syria ? You have iranian ground and air force in Syria since 2013. They lost tens of thousands people at the service of the Assad regime. I don't think you can equate that with the diplomatic and economic support that SA give to some rebels factions.

Iran have Syria, Iraq and Lebanon under their military supervision. It's basically a Safavid renaissance.

 

[Aceofspades]

Is there KSA boots in Syria ? You have iranian ground and air force in Syria since 2013. They lost tens of thousands people at the service of the Assad regime. I don't think you can equate that with the diplomatic and economic support that SA give to some rebels factions.

Iran have Syria, Iraq and Lebanon under their military supervision.

No boots, just being part of the coalition to fight ISIS.

 

[Matt]

Is there KSA boots in Syria ? You have iranian ground and air force in Syria since 2013. They lost tens of thousands people at the service of the Assad regime. I don't think you can equate that with the diplomatic and economic support that SA give to some rebels factions.

Iran have Syria, Iraq and Lebanon under their military supervision. It's basically a Safavid renaissance.

You think Iran has lost tens of thousands of people during the Syrian Civil War?

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

You think Iran has lost tens of thousands of people during the Syrian Civil War?

More than 1.000 official iranian military, and the rest is Hezbollah. Hezbollah are under direct authority of Iran's Supreme Guide.

Edit: I overestimated those numbers, let's says thousands.

How many KSA soldiers died fighting Assad ? 0.

 

[KingSnake]

Is there KSA boots in Syria ? You have iranian ground and air force in Syria since 2013. They lost tens of thousands people at the service of the Assad regime. I don't think you can equate that with the diplomatic and economic support that SA give to some rebels factions.

While Saudi Arabia is involved only by proxies, it still means that they are acting in destabilising that country.

If you ignore the moral part and the awfulness of the Assad regime, Iranian troops supporting Assad regime have the same legit ground as the Saudi intervening in Yemen.

Actually both countries use both direct intervention and proxy wars in their continuous fight for power, so I don't think any of them has any moral stand in this.

More than 1.000 official iranian military, and the rest is Hezbollah. Hezbollah are under direct authority of Iran's Supreme Guide.

Edit: I overestimated those numbers, let's says thousands.

What's the source for this death toll?

 

[Matt]

More than 1.000 official iranian military, and the rest is Hezbollah. Hezbollah are under direct authority of Iran's Supreme Guide.

Edit: I overestimated those numbers, let's says thousands.

I'm seeing about 500 Iranians, and under 2,000 Hezbollah deaths.

You massively overstated the situation, even if you include Hezbollah (which is a jump anyway). What made you think it was that severe?

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

While Saudi Arabia is involved only by proxies, it still means that they are acting in destabilising that country.

If you ignore the moral part and the awfulness of the Assad regime, Iranian troops supporting Assad regime have the same legit ground as the Saudi intervening in Yemen.

Actually both countries use both direct intervention and proxy wars in their continuous fight for power, so I don't think any of them has any moral stand in this.

And why should i do that ?

In Yemen, you can easily said that the legitimacy lies in the government supported by SA. It's not sectarian and it doesn't have launched a full scale war against its own civil population, unlike Assad regime.

I definitely don't think SA cannot claim to any kind of moral stand, but in the Syrian conflict, Iran is the criminal who maintained Assad in power when it was about to fall. The conflict in Yemen is far more complicated. The Houthi uprising is definitely built around sectarian and regional grounds, unlike the syrian revolution who was from the civil society and not sectarian at all.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

What's the source for this death toll?

Reuters.

It could be a lot more though.

 

[KingSnake]

And why should i do that ?

Because the morality of the rulers never played any role in choosing sides in the Gulf conflicts. Like Saudi Arabia never had any doubts in financially supporting Sadam Hussein when it was in their interest.

 

[Aceofspades]

Because the morality of the rulers never played any role in choosing sides in the Gulf conflicts. Like Saudi Arabia never had any doubts in financially supporting Sadam Hussein when it was in their interest.

IRAQ is an Arabic country who entered war with IRAN. of course SA will support Saddam (Iraq ruler at the time) also he was supported by all Arab coalition.

Different situation all together.

 

[KingSnake]

IRAQ is an Arabic country who entered war with IRAN. of course SA will support Saddam (Iraq ruler at the time) also he was supported by all Arab coalition.

Different situation all together.

Right. As I said, the morality of the ruler doesn't matter that much in the region.

Edit:I noticed the nice euphemism "entered war". Iraq straight up invaded Iran encouraged by Saudi Arabia. See how it all comes back to supporting the stability and peace in the area since many many years?

 

[Kinyou]

I guarantee those bans will lifted sooner than everyone thinks, a lot is changing internally in KSA.

They just established "moderation center" to help fight extreme idiologies, they removed all authorities of "religious police"

On the other hand they just arrested a women's driving activist

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-40171306

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

IRAQ is an Arabic country who entered war with IRAN. of course SA will support Saddam (Iraq ruler at the time) also he was supported by all Arab coalition.

Different situation all together.

Iraq was a minority Sunni ruled country that had the B'aath party support of gulf powers. Saddam straight up invaded Iran to start the Iran-Iraq war as an aggressor.

 

[spidye]

Is there KSA boots in Syria ? You have iranian ground and air force in Syria since 2013. They lost tens of thousands people at the service of the Assad regime. I don't think you can equate that with the diplomatic and economic support that SA give to some rebels factions.

Iran have Syria, Iraq and Lebanon under their military supervision. It's basically a Safavid renaissance.

Well ksa has been supporting rebels and terror groups for years

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...supporting-anti-assad-jihadists-10242747.html
Why should that not be comparable to the military aid from iran?

 

[AcademicSaucer]

Gotta love the Saudi goverment defense force on this thread.

Saudi is getting moderate guys, they are going to give some strong worded letters to those who are critical of the goverment instead of jailing them.

 

[GSG Flash]

Pakistan + Afghanistan are both affected by Al-Qaeda or Taliban. Only time SA supported those terrorist groups was during chechen war, after that they stopped supporting them, hell they were affected by numerous attacks inside KSA to remove the "infedel government"

Iran in the other hand is aiding Assad, supplying Hezbollah, and Houthis and causing chaos in Iraq. They are doing it to this day.

SA and Iran are really similar in a lot of things the only difference is the religious regime "malaly" is ruling Iran.

While KSA is still ruled by "Royal family", the situation will be a lot worse if "Royal family" was removed and the crazy religious sect "Sunni"of SA took control.

Pakistan went downhill when the Saudi puppet Zia Ul Haq got into power and allowed Saudi influence to pollute Pakistani society. Since then, Saudi funded radical madrassas in Pakistan are pumping out wahabbi zealots and extremists on a daily basis. Do you know where groups like Taliban and Al Qaeda get their recruits from? Those same Saudi funded madrassas.

Afghanistan had been in the shit hole since the Saudi funded Taliban got into power. By the end of the Taliban's reign, the only two countries that had diplomatic relations with Taliban ruled Afghanistan were SA and Pakistan.

Is there KSA boots in Syria ? You have iranian ground and air force in Syria since 2013. They lost tens of thousands people at the service of the Assad regime. I don't think you can equate that with the diplomatic and economic support that SA give to some rebels factions.

Iran have Syria, Iraq and Lebanon under their military supervision. It's basically a Safavid renaissance.

How is this any different from SA interfering in Bahrain and Yemen? The population of Yemen is under dire conditions, now worse than Iraq, largely due to the Saudi's indiscriminate bombings of civilian areas. Bahrain is in a far worse situation after the Arab Spring thanks to the Saudi intervention. It's security crackdowns and human rights abuses galore in Bahrain.

This is of course not even taking into account Saudi funding of extremist groups that are helping to destabilize stable nations.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Because the morality of the rulers never played any role in choosing sides in the Gulf conflicts. Like Saudi Arabia never had any doubts in financially supporting Sadam Hussein when it was in their interest.

It's not relevant. I don't need to choose to side with a ruler over the other. Middle-East is not a magical place where different rules apply. You have different degree of tyranny. Mubarak and Ben Ali did shot on people, but they eventually gave in and go. Assad just decided to launch a full-scale military war against his own people, with the help of many foreign countries. It's not a common situation.

So yes, i judge all rulers according to moral principles.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Well ksa has been supporting rebels and terror groups for years

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...supporting-anti-assad-jihadists-10242747.html
Why should that not be comparable to the military aid from iran?

Because rebels groups and "extremists" is an incredibly vague term ? From Damas perspective, everything outside Baath party is "extremist".

Another thing: some rebels groups in Syria are receiving weapon and money from different regional actor, from the West to A-S. They are not under direct authority, and they usually receive money from different sources, and those sources may cut the money, reduce it or raise it. It's a dynamic and an open relationship.

It's not the same as direct iranian army presence, or militia under direct iranian authority, like Hezbollah.

How is this any different from SA interfering in Bahrain and Yemen? The population of Yemen is under dire conditions, now worse than Iraq, largely due to the Saudi's indiscriminate bombings of civilian areas. Bahrain is in a far worse situation after the Arab Spring thanks to the Saudi intervention. It's security crackdowns and human rights abuses galore in Bahrain.

On Yemen i already stated my position. It's not a conflict where you have a dictatorship against it's people. It's way more complicated than that.
On Bahrain, KSA role is as criminal as Iranian role in Syria, i don't have any problem saying that.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Gotta love the Saudi goverment defense force on this thread.

Saudi is getting moderate guys, they are going to give some strong worded letters to those who are critical of the goverment instead of jailing them.

Who is defending Saudi Arabia in this thread ?
If you are not able to understand balance and complexity in any given issue, you should just refrain from commenting geopolitical issues.

 

[Darth Pinche]

Gotta love the Saudi goverment defense force on this thread.

Saudi is getting moderate guys, they are going to give some strong worded letters to those who are critical of the goverment instead of jailing them.

There is a defense force for anything. Whatever.

My heart weeps for the Iranian people who are being oppressed and misrepresented by an extremist, religious government.

 

[GSG Flash]

On Yemen i already stated my position. It's not a conflict where you have a dictatorship against it's people. It's way more complicated than that.
On Bahrain, KSA role is as criminal as Iranian role in Syria, i don't have any problem saying that.

Not sure it's really that complicated. Like Iran in Syria, Saudi wants to keep their puppet in Yemen and, in this case, SA will indiscriminately bomb civilians to do so.

Let's not pretend that Hadi was democratically elected in free and fair elections, he was the sole candidate in an election spearheaded by SA. He had been the vice president of Yemen since 1994, he was and still is as much a part of the corruption as anyone else in that war forsaken nation.

 

[Buba Big Guns]

Pakistan + Afghanistan are both affected by Al-Qaeda or Taliban. Only time SA supported those terrorist groups was during chechen war, after that they stopped supporting them, hell they were affected by numerous attacks inside KSA to remove the "infedel government"

Nope

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=239283972&postcount=314

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Not sure it's really that complicated. Like Iran in Syria, Saudi wants to keep their puppet in Yemen and, in this case, SA will indiscriminately bomb civilians to do so.

Let's not pretend that Hadi was democratically elected in free and fair elections, he was the sole candidate in an election spearheaded by SA. He had been the vice president of Yemen since 1994, he was and still is as much a part of the corruption as anyone else in that war forsaken nation.

In Yemen you have two side: Hadi who was the product of arab spring and was backed by the ruling party AND the opposition and the Houthi, a sectarian group who adopted khomeinism as a political ideology. The houthis are now backed by the ex-dictator (or "authoritarian president") Ali Abdullah Saleh.

So the side backed by SA is actually the outcome of the popular revolt.

It's not clear-cut as the Syrian (or the Bahrein) conflict, at least for me.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Nope

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=239283972&postcount=314

The whole "wahhabi angle" fall flat however when you see that UAE have a pretty similar politic that the one of KSA and UEA is not wahhabi at all. It follow the maliki fiqh.

I think that wahhabism explain many hard fundation in the M-E chessgame, but it shouldn't be reduced to it. I find this over-simplification of M-E politics as a giant wahhabi conspiracy akin to any conspiracy theory: simplistic and not satisfying at all. The biggest ally of KSA right now is Sisi's Egypt, which is a secularist regime. They are also allied with FATAH which is historically a secularist party with socialist influences.

 

[GSG Flash]

In Yemen you have two side: Hadi who was the product of arab spring and was backed by the ruling party AND the opposition and the Houthi, a sectarian group who adopted khomeinism as a political ideology. The houthis are now backed by the ex-dictator (or "authoritarian president") Ali Abdullah Saleh.

So the side backed by SA is actually the outcome of the popular revolt.

It's not clear-cut as the Syrian (or the Bahrein) conflict, at least for me.

Saleh stepping down was a product of the Arab spring, Hadi was a product of the Saudis establishing a new puppet government in Yemen. Hard for Yemenis to make a democratic choice when there's only one candidate to choose from.

I have no love for the Houthis but it's pretty clear that a large portion of the population did not support Hadi's government.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Saleh stepping down was a product of the Arab spring, Hadi was a product of the Saudis establishing a new puppet government in Yemen. Hard for Yemenis to make a democratic choice when there's only one candidate to choose from.

I have no love for the Houthis but it's pretty clear that a large portion of the population did not support Hadi's government.

It's why it's a more complicated conflict than Syria or Bahrein.

While i have no problem siding with the FSA in Syria, i can't side with anyone in Yemen: i just hope that they reach an agreement and impose a nationwide ceasefire and find a kind of consensus.