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[Dwalls]

Actually, most of PC history agrees with me. Where do you think expansion packs originate from? Rise of the Triads? Stuff like Katakis?

Alright, stop saying this or provide receipts dude, because it's sounding like a lot of bs to me. Give me statistics proving the mods for money thing. I've been gaming since the sega genesis and downloading mods since I started pc gaming. Never before has payment been requested of me outside of a few fringe cases.

If this actually takes off and Valve/Developers make a ton of money off of modding, I wonder if a new business model might emerge?



Like, say a developer decided to make a "base game" and offers it for free, with mod tools included (although you could use your own tools if you wanted too). The idea is, the base game is offered for free and modders are the ones who develop for it. The original developers (and Valve) make their money through the Workshop cut.


Something like Free 2 Play with DLC or microtransactions - except instead of DLC or micros, it's community-built mods that are sold.

That's what I'm fully predicting is going to happen. Why pay employees for developing dlc if you can just get some dude sitting at home to do it for a pittance of the revenue made from it.

 

[reckless]

Actually, most of PC history agrees with me. Where do you think expansion packs originate from? Rise of the Triads? Stuff like Katakis?

Those are outliers... There are tens of thousands of free mods for skyrim alone, unless you have thousands of example those are still outliers.

If you include mods for all games you would have to come up with hundreds of thousands if not millions of paid mods for them to not be outliers...

 

[Odah]

oh and "vote with your wallet" is the most stupid thing i've heard to counter something like this. Because most of the people who don't know nexus will more likely go on the steam workshop cus it is easier for them to find stuff like mods and guess what, most of them won't even realize that 90% of those mods are actually free on other websites.


oh and:

 

[Aselith]

it's an "option"

but why pass up the sweet benjamins?

I can't wait to pay for Crusader Kings 2 mods.

So you don't think that people who make things you enjoy should be allowed to make money or? Maybe you weren't being sarcastic though?

 

[CHC]

I'm really not into this move and the precedent it sets. It's going to consolidate all modding into Steam's economy, and the absence of quality control is going to make the whole thing a shit show at least on par with the App Store.

 

[EVIL]

Modifications should always be free of charge, no matter what.

What, why?

If modders want to ask money for their mods, then they should have the freedom to do so. Just like you have the freedom to buy said mod or not.

 

[maltrain]

I can't imagine how GAF would go mad if Microsoft and not Valve were behind this...

This is how DLC bullshit started... and we voted (wrongly) with our money...

 

[FunkyMunkey]

Actually, most of PC history agrees with me. Where do you think expansion packs originate from? Rise of the Triads? Stuff like Katakis?

No, actually. "Most of PC history" strongly disagrees with your assertion actually. Modding has been a mostly-free element of gaming for the vast majority of cases and naming off a few outliers means nothing

 

[MisterShine]

I hope this move helps the PC gaming community realize that Valve has no interest in serving their customers, but only in helping to maintain their near-monopoly in the digital gaming space. Let's use that gamer outrage machine for good!

 

[Fragamemnon]

this is a hobbyist scene.

Always ALWAYS has been

This isn't a feature, it's a bug. It has been hobbyist because there was little to no way for production of modded content to become financially sustainable for the creators as a full time endeavour. Creators should have the option to harness their passion to make something they can make a living off of if they chose to do so.

Telling modders that they have to remain amateurs and can't go engage their passion full time in order preserve some notion of 'sanctity of the scene' is complete horseshit.

 

[JohnnyFootball]

Oh. It's going to be a cluster. Don't mistake my words.

I just don't see the issue with Valve giving mod creators an option to monetize their work. It is my sincere hope that the good ones won't do it, but if they choose to then that's on them. I won't be paying for anything, that's for sure.

I mean on one hand, I agree that if you feel your work is good enough to be paid for, by all means.

But I seriously think it will be far more trouble than it's worth for Valve.

 

[Lime]

Neoliberal logic is in full force in this thread

 

[maltrain]

I hope this move helps the PC gaming community realize that Valve has no interest in serving their customers, but only in helping to maintain their near-monopoly in the digital gaming space. Let's use that gamer outrage machine for good!

Totally agree... Newell isn't a messiah or something, just a greedy business man.

 

[Demon Lizardman]

Nexus is down

 

[Netherscourge]

Alright, stop saying this or provide receipts dude, because it's sounding like a lot of bs to me. Give me statistics proving the mods for money thing. I've been gaming since the sega genesis and downloading mods since I started pc gaming. Never before has payment been requested of me outside of a few fringe cases.



That's what I'm fully predicting is going to happen. Why pay employees for developing dlc if you can just get some dude sitting at home to do it for a pittance of the revenue made from it.

I'm wondering if other companies, like Blizzard are watching this.

World of Warcraft has a huge "add-on" community itself. What if Blizzard offered a similar program where add-on makers could sell their work on Battlenet for a cut?

Add-ons like Deadly Boss Mods are almost mandatory to play WoW, especially for raiding. I would imagine the DBM creators would make a ton of money (as would Blizzard) if there was a "paid add-on" section for WoW too.

All those free add-ons suddenly costing a couple bucks here and there... suddenly, a new business model is here.

Curse would be an afterthought to add-on makers if that happened. Kinda like Skyrim Nexus might wind up becoming.

 

[Nzyme32]

it's an "option"

but why pass up the sweet benjamins?

I can't wait to pay for Crusader Kings 2 mods.

One reason to pass up "sweet benjamins", would be when there a tiny return - if the market of users unanimously decide not to purchase paid for mods that add nothing interesting vs free variants. It may be more beneficial and meaningful for many modders to provide their mod for free and see higher volume of downloads, greater recognition / exposure, greater community feedback and support vs the other scenario of providing a paid for mod that sees huge reductions in downloads / exposure / recognition / use / community support for paltry amounts of money (bear in mind the majority of mods have never revolved around financial gain, but rather a fun hobby or experiential gain and recognition to help them further careers)

I think there is likely a middle ground for select few mods (perhaps that already have a large following previously) that are of a significantly large scale and are regularly maintained and expanded upon / feature rich over their free counterparts (if any) of which users may actually be happy to pay a price for them.

 

[JohnnyFootball]

Here is an interesting question for everyone in this thread:

Which mods ARE worth paying for?

I think that MOD that one dude made to try and get him a job at Bethesda is the only one thta comes to mind.

 

[reckless]

This isn't a feature, it's a bug. It has been hobbyist because there was little to no way for production of modded content to become financially sustainable for the creators as a full time endeavour. Creators should have the option to harness their passion to make something they can make a living off of if they chose to do so.

Telling modders that they have to remain amateurs and can't go engage their passion full time in order preserve some notion of 'sanctity of the scene' is complete horseshit.

The "sanctity of the scene" argument has some merits, there are already mods pulled off or having to be changed because they use parts of other mods. Putting money into the mix definitely gives people a lot less of a reason to cooperate.

 

[Krejlooc]

Alright, stop saying this or provide receipts dude, because it's sounding like a lot of bs to me. Give me statistics proving the mods for money thing. I've been gaming since the sega genesis and downloading mods since I started pc gaming. Never before has payment been requested of me.

Do I really need to go on? What the hell do you guys think expansion packs were? How do you think they came to be in the first place?

 

[Serandur]

Your points are all stemming from an incorrect assumption. "Nobody mods for money, thus blah and blah and blah."

Your premise is false. All your points do not apply. Modding absolutely is work. The end goal of the vast majority of modders is to make a living.

Except I didn't say "nobody" or "blah and blah".

You're claiming something about outliers as being the majority with no evidence of your own. There are notable outliers, complete conversion mods and they like that gained plenty of traction, but that hardly constitutes any "vast majority". They're a handful compared to all the amateur modders tweaking game systems, introducing new texture/models/assets, creating new maps, etc.

That's a numerical fact, and you wish to speak of ignorance? Anyone and everyone can and do release mods for supported games for the sake of changing a game across all different genres and years. Many of whom are not widely known, because the pure act of modding is often recreational.

Indie game development or some complete conversion mods (which are guaranteed very little financial success) are where you go when the goal is really making money, the vast majority of mods are not nearly as complex nor as lucrative nor are they intended to be. But even if we were to indulge this fantasy and assume most mods are complete game conversions spawning their own series, go look at the ones we in this thread are talking about. All the steam workshop mods being sold under the premise of another game with relatively miniscule scope.

Those are the majority of mods and the ones being charged for now. They never were before. Those, the ones on Nexus (that are being removed to be charged on Steam), the ones in every modding guide for every game under the sun, custom maps, custom weapons, lightning changes, texture mods, extra buildings in strategy games, etc. Those are the vast majority of mods and very few of them were ever paid. And there are plenty of overhaul and conversion mods that didn't demand cash either.

 

[kingkitty]

So you don't think that people who make things you enjoy should be allowed to make money or? Maybe you weren't being sarcastic though?

I don't give a hoot if you want to charge for your new buggy fishing pole mod. What worries me is what will happen to existing mods.

do you think mods that were once free of charge, should now be put behind a paywall?

I rather they throw up a donation link if they need some money.

 

[StrangeTaco]

If you can actually show concrete evidence that the modding scene has at it's core always been about making money I would be extremely interested in seeing that.

Actually, most of PC history agrees with me. Where do you think expansion packs originate from? Rise of the Triads? Stuff like Katakis?

I keep seeing you say things like this but have yet to see any actual evidence presented for this.

 

[CHC]

Neoliberal logic is in full force in this thread

Yeah some of these arguments are insane. Like the whole argument that if Steam's system were not in effect, that is somehow "forbidding" modders from making money, as if there is no other way that they can capitalize on their skills.

By this logic I should be paying to read each post on Neogaf - I enjoy those, so fuck, why the hell should they be free?

 

[EVIL]

this is a hobbyist scene.

Always ALWAYS has been

Playing games is a hobby and people get money from doing that. Youtubeing is a hobby and now there are those who earn millions a year. A hobbyist scene does not mean creators shouldn't have the freedom to ask for money if they so desire. Paying modders for their work is one great way to have them stick in the game development scene, create more mods, maybe games that you might enjoy in the future.

 

[MisterShine]

I'm wondering if other companies, like Blizzard are watching this.

You bet your ass every single publisher and major player in the PC gaming market is paying very close attention to all of this.

 

[macewank]

Well have fun finding free ones that add actual quality to the game in a year or two because they will be all monitized, maybe with a few exceptions.

Or they won't. And that's kind of my point. the market will decide what will or will not happen with paid mods.

But I digress, let's all play the magic 8 ball game and freak the hell out about what may or may not happen in a year or two instead.

 

[reckless]

Do I really need to go on? What the hell do you guys think expansion packs were? How do you think they came to be in the first place?

Well if you are going to keep arguing that paid mods aren't outliers then yeah. You need tens of thousands if not more examples...

 

[human onion]

By this logic I should be paying to read each post on Neogaf - I enjoy those, so fuck, why the hell should they be free?

Yes, if you enjoy something but didn't pay for it, then you are an entitled thief! Let's charge for everything anyone might possibly enjoy, and if they don't like it, they won't buy it! Funny how neoliberalism is shat on in OT but it's just fine here because it "supports modders."

 

[Dorsal Axe]

They are not outliers, there are tons, and tons of examples of people modding specifically to make money. You guys simply are unaware. It is a common practice.

Then, please, enlighten us with your "tons and tons of examples". I'm interested to see these.

The end goal of the vast majority of modders is to make a living.

This is patently untrue and a ridiculous exaggeration, given that the "vast majority" would also incorporate one-time modders and hobbyists who would never expect renumeration for their work. Plus the licenses for many games prohibit modification or reuse of their works for commercial purposes, so therefore why would a majority attempt to make a living from it?

And I know a lot of big-time modders in other communities who do not earn any money from their output (which in some cases is vast, more so than the big-time modders for Skyrim) and hold down actual jobs. Modding is not a living to them. If anything, the "vast majority" of modders set out to do it out of passion for the game. Any money coming their way is a bonus.

 

[RK9039]

Do I really need to go on? What the hell do you guys think expansion packs were? How do you think they came to be in the first place?

Is that it?

I have never heard of paid mods before, I've heard of donations.

 

[Krejlooc]

Well if you are going to keep arguing that paid mods aren't outliers then yeah. You need tens of thousands if not more examples...

Good thing there are tens of thousands of expansion packs out there over the course of gaming history. I love how "never" now means "well not never."

This isn't new. This has been part of gaming forever. One of the most played games of all time:

Is a commercial mod. But please continue telling me how modding has always been this free, non-commercial hobby, despite decades of evidence pointing otherwise.

 

[djshauny]

Good. About time some of these folks get paid for the work they do.

 

[afternoon delight]

If this actually takes off and Valve/Developers make a ton of money off of modding, I wonder if a new business model might emerge?



Like, say a developer decided to make a "base game" and offers it for free, with mod tools included (although you could use your own tools if you wanted too). The idea is, the base game is offered for free and modders are the ones who develop for it. The original developers (and Valve) make their money through the Workshop cut.


Something like Free 2 Play with DLC or microtransactions - except instead of DLC or micros, it's community-built mods that are sold.

So Minecraft could grow from a 10 dollar proposition to a money pit?

I foresee mod tools being locked to paid content and NO mods outside of workshop tagged content, thus strip mining what had until yesterday been a collective hobbyist scene. And as much as Krilojec wants to protest, I seriously doubt the majority of modders were in it to become the next Turtle Rock.

Maybe the cherry is that it's for a fucking Gamebyro Engine game, they can't even deliver a finished product for your full 60$ GOTY charge.

 

[Enco]

Or they won't. And that's kind of my point. the market will decide what will or will not happen with paid mods.

But I digress, let's all play the magic 8 ball game and freak the hell out about what may or may not happen in a year or two instead.

People keep going on about these 'cool companies giving people choices'.

Are you really crazy enough to think Valve is doing this just to be nice and give users options? Really?

There's ONE and only one reason for this. Valve wants more money for no extra work.

There's literally no other reason. Not for options. Not to reward modders. Not to get higher quality mods.

Just lol at people going out of their way to support a multi million/billion dollar company who don't give a shit about them.

 

[Hamster Plugin]

If this actually takes off and Valve/Developers make a ton of money off of modding, I wonder if a new business model might emerge?



Like, say a developer decided to make a "base game" and offers it for free, with mod tools included (although you could use your own tools if you wanted too). The idea is, the base game is offered for free and modders are the ones who develop for it. The original developers (and Valve) make their money through the Workshop cut.


Something like Free 2 Play with DLC or microtransactions - except instead of DLC or micros, it's community-built mods that are sold.

This is the exact business model that the new Unreal Tournament will be doing. Valve won't be involved though.

 

[Dwalls]

Do I really need to go on? What the hell do you guys think expansion packs were? How do you think they came to be in the first place?

You posted 8 pictures of old mods for games which had thousands upon thousands of free mods. Those mods are the exception not the rule. Please stop argueing that point because it's a ludicrous one, mods by and large have been free community maintained efforts.

 

[Hyperzephyrian]

This is patently untrue and a ridiculous exaggeration, given that the "vast majority" would also incorporate one-time modders and hobbyists who would never expect renumeration for their work.

I hate to do this, but I can't stop myself: it's remuneration.

Spoiler

You're not the first to make that mistake in this thread.

Good. About time some of these folks get paid for the work they do.

Never trust anyone who says "folks." Only politicians and salesmen use it.

 

[reckless]

Good thing there are tens of thousands of expansion packs out there over the course of gaming history. I love how "never" now means "well not never."

This isn't new. This has been part of gaming forever. One of the most played games of all time:

Is a commercial mod. But please continue telling me how modding has always been this free, non-commercial hobby, despite decades of evidence pointing otherwise.

Most expansion packs are created in - house or licensed from the company that developed the game... that's a lot different then a mod so those aren't evidence.

Once again you pick out a notable exception... its notable because its an exception/outlier.

 

[FunkyMunkey]

Playing games is a hobby and people get money from doing that. Youtubeing is a hobby and now there are those who earn millions a year. A hobbyist scene does not mean creators shouldn't have the freedom to ask for money if they so desire. Paying modders for their work is one great way to have them stick in the game development scene, create more mods, maybe games that you might enjoy in the future.

The problem is Valve controlling every facet of the "spice" in this case. And now that money will be thrown into the mix for mods, people are going to be extremely pissed when "Bob Headshot 89" won't refund your $4 for a mod that became broken after a patch, or won't work with any other mod from the store. And Valve is literally coming out and saying they won't be responsible for it (but will gladly collect your money). There's a big difference between donations and purchasing these mods.

What about people taking other people's work and profiting off of it via this method? Or utilizing previous assets and throwing on a new coat of paint? Before, you would donate if you both were able to and the mod performed well over time. Now, mods will be locked behind a paywall and you're screwed if something goes wrong after the refund period.

By throwing the HUGE weight of their platform behind this, Valve wants to control the modding scene. This isn't a "more options" case when modders are currently taking their mods down from Nexus and putting them back up for profit.

Anyone who doesn't see this as hurting the modding scene in general (versus non-obligatory donations via Nexus or otherwise) isn't stepping back and looking at the whole picture. All this is going to do is limit exposure to mods and the scene overall, as the people who make them won't care if only 25 people purchase their $5 mod (whether it's well-made or not) as that's more than they would make in the same time via donations. But hey, at least they're getting paid for their work right?

People keep going on about these 'cool companies giving people choices'.

Are you really crazy enough to think Valve is doing this just to be nice and give users options? Really?

There's ONE and only one reason for this. Valve wants more money for no extra work.

There's literally no other reason. Not for options. Not to reward modders. Not to get higher quality mods.

Just lol at people going out of their way to support a multi million/billion dollar company who don't give a shit about them.

.

 

[superseohyun]

Yeah some of these arguments are insane. Like the whole argument that if Steam's system were not in effect, that is somehow "forbidding" modders from making money, as if there is no other way that they can capitalize on their skills.

By this logic I should be paying to read each post on Neogaf - I enjoy those, so fuck, why the hell should they be free?

you will get better quality post that way!

 

[Coflash]

People keep going on about these 'cool companies giving people choices'.

Are you really crazy enough to think Valve is doing this just to be nice and give users options? Really?

There's ONE and only one reason for this. Valve wants more money for no extra work.

There's literally no other reason. Not for options. Not to reward modders. Not to get higher quality mods.

This should be obvious enough to everyone simply by the cut they take. 25% for the author? C'mon.

 

[Krejlooc]

You posted 8 pictures of old mods for games which had thousands upon thousands of free mods. Those mods are the exception not the rule.

Those 8 pictures are not the only expansion packs available. Further, each of those expansion packs contains tons of mods.

Funny how elastic "always" and "never" are when you can just handwave any and all evidence the contrary as "oh well that's just an outlier."

This stuff has been happening for decades. It's always been a big part of PC gaming.

 

[RK9039]

So Minecraft could grow from a 10 dollar proposition to a money pit?

I foresee mod tools being locked to paid content and NO mods outside of workshop tagged content, thus strip mining what had until yesterday been a collective hobbyist scene. And as much as Krilojec wants to protest, I seriously doubt the majority of modders were in it to become the next Turtle Rock.

Maybe the cherry is that it's for a fucking Gamebyro Engine game, they can't even deliver a finished product for your full 60$ GOTY charge.

I can totally see them messing around with sites like the Nexus in the future. These greedy fuckers will do anything.

 

[ieptbarakat]

Playing games is a hobby and people get money from doing that. Youtubeing is a hobby and now there are those who earn millions a year. A hobbyist scene does not mean creators shouldn't have the freedom to ask for money if they so desire. Paying modders for their work is one great way to have them stick in the game development scene, create more mods, maybe games that you might enjoy in the future.

A hobby is something you do out of your own interest with no financial gain, getting paid to do something is called a job. Streamers and youtubers are technically jobs now. User generated DLC is more akin to freelance content creation, which would also be labled as a job.

 

[Krejlooc]

Most expansion packs are created in - house or licensed from the company that developed the game...

NO they aren't. I specifically used those examples BECAUSE they claim to be developed under the banner of the developer, but they are not. I know this because I know the modders responsible for those games. Everyone will claim DMA designs created Oh No More Lemmings... but they didn't. A 2-man team began oh no more lemmings out of their basement, showed it to DMA, and got contracted to finish and release it as a commercial expansion.

This is absolutely no different than what is going on.

 

[Kinthalis]

Then, please, enlighten us with your "tons and tons of examples". I'm interested to see these.


This is patently untrue and a ridiculous exaggeration, given that the "vast majority" would also incorporate one-time modders and hobbyists who would never expect renumeration for their work. Plus the licenses for many games prohibit modification or reuse of their works for commercial purposes, so therefore why would a majority attempt to make a living from it?

And I know a lot of big-time modders in other communities who do not earn any money from their output (which in some cases is vast, more so than the big-time modders for Skyrim) and hold down actual jobs. Modding is not a living to them. If anything, the "vast majority" of modders set out to do it out of passion for the game. Any money coming their way is a bonus.

I think what he meant is that modders do it to get recognized by actual devleopment sutdios.

MANY modders have moved on to become developers in one way or another, and MANY, MANY more would LOVE to do the same.

 

[water_wendi]

Good thing there are tens of thousands of expansion packs out there over the course of gaming history. I love how "never" now means "well not never."

This isn't new. This has been part of gaming forever. One of the most played games of all time:

Is a commercial mod. But please continue telling me how modding has always been this free, non-commercial hobby, despite decades of evidence pointing otherwise.

You have half a point with the published megawad releases but arcade mods are in whole other realm. If Valve or the developer getting a cut of the mod sale gave any kind of quality or quantity control, then i might agree with what you are saying.

 

[TheSeks]

http://i.imgur.com/huPPEa2.jpg

Do I really need to go on? What the hell do you guys think expansion packs were? How do you think they came to be in the first place?

I had that one. It wasn't an "expansion" pack, it was more a collection of Q1/2/3, similar to buying a bundle off Steam.

 

[EVIL]

oh and "vote with your wallet" is the most stupid thing i've heard to counter something like this. Because most of the people who don't know nexus will more likely go on the steam workshop cus it is easier for them to find stuff like mods and guess what, most of them won't even realize that 90% of those mods are actually free on other websites.


oh and:

The fuck are you on about.. there are 18 paid mods on steam workshop right now and 25,194 who are free.

 

[agiantenemycrab]

I think this may be aimed more at developers/publishers than mod creators. The more games which take advantage of the Steam workshop, the more valuable the Steam platform becomes. This is Valves long term goal. If they can present this as an extra revenue stream to developers/publishers it incentivizes them to provide official modding tools and workshop support. Maybe Rockstar will give some more thought to mod and workshop support for GTA V.