Skyrim Workshop Now Supports Paid Mods

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Oh, I'm pissed at Bethesda, believe me! This is no doubt a trial run for future games and I think it sucks.

The revenues cut Valve gave people could have been higher, IMHO.

I mean, I temper my reaction to the 25% for Valve's games by looking at how the people making the content have taken it. We have some of the big name creators here on the site and they have all seemed enthusiastic about being involved in the program. They end up paid well and given an opportunity they wouldn't have otherwise.

As Dean Hall pointed out, a straight up percentage revenue share model is a much better deal than you typically see when contracted to work on someone else's product. When you look at a hypothetical where Valve pays someone $100 or $250 for a Dota 2 item set, that could sound fair to the creator and no one would bat an eye. Instead, with a 25% revenue split, they can get cut checks for $1000 or more instead.

Even though the scenarios are pretty similar though, I ultimately just don't feel like Bethesda fundamentally deserves 50% here. Part of it probably has to do with this marketplace hitting what is already a very old and established game where all of the community content already exists. It doesn't have the same sort of context of creating mutually beneficial business opportunities and promoting the development of content. The content's already there and is actually somewhat in jeopardy as a result of the marketplace. A lot of the content is fixing Skyrim's glaring problems. That's not a recipe for enthusiasm. If it had been introduced with a new product, like Fallout 4, with everything known ahead of time, the reaction would be different and an existing community wouldn't be having free things taken away from it.
 
Reading that thread is disgusting.

And not because of Mardoxx.

I mean,
Is one of the tamer posts.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised at people just packing up, taking their toys, and going home if that's the "community".

Edit:
Looking at that cesspool just makes me happy we have some standards here.

I don't like this update, but I'll agree with you on this. Don't attack the guy who made a mod so good every other mod depends on it when he's still leaving the free version up. Complaining is one thing, mob mentality is another.
 
Posted yet?

https://twitter.com/miracleofsound/status/591992962931908608

97c93f595b0c9f83e90a4d5c793ce523.png



oh god
 
Dark0ne (owner of the Nexus) released another statement several hours ago.
http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/news/12459/?

Might have already been posted, but it's a good read.



Free mods aren't going anywhere.

It is a good read, thanks for posting.

UI shit is very disrespective to the massive work Schlangster and co have put into SkyUI. We are talking about over hundreds or thousands of manhours. They also pretty much stopped working on it well over a year ago (could be closer to two years), but have now had the means and motivation to continue whilst still offering the old version. I personally think that the resurrection of SkyUI is one positive thing that has come out so far.

Is SkyUI the only user interface around? I know for FO3/NV you had the choice of DarnUI or MTUI and mods supported both. Even so, there is no need to be spewing the vitriol toward the SkyUI team (well, anyone really) like people are. Create your own interface mods or I believe the last version released on the Nexus is still there so just use that (and avoid any mod that uses any newer version). I would guess that the mods that use any new version of SkyUI would probably be paid mods anyway...

Oh please just don't fuck up Fallout 4 with that stupid shit. My heart can't take it anymore :(

I want to say that they are testing the waters and it's almost a given that this system is being prepared specifically for FO3.
 
Valve needs to have sort out the QA with this. As with mentioned with the armor above, if people are paying for it they shouldn't have to go through console/have the armor glitched from the get go.

That ain't going to happen. Valve barely seems bothered to manage Steam as it is now. Their whole approach is pretty much the market will figure it out and I don't see that changing.
 
You know what? I actually can't hate on this program anymore.

If it was going to happen at any time, it had to happen now.
Releasing it alongside FO4 would've been a shitstorm, front and center. For one thing, far too many people would be concerned with not actually playing the game. The first thing they'd do is start digging through the files, see what unlocks perks, how to spawn extra caps, all that other nonsense. Before the game is out for even a day you'd go on the workshop and see a million different "pay2win apps". You're seeing it right now with the influx of (un-approved) paid-mods for Skyrim.

Once this normalizes*, people will (hopefully) focus on playing through FO4, seeing how everything works, looking at what needs to be fixed, expanded upon, etc.

As far as the split is concerned, I still don't like it, but it could work. Bethesda should use a portion of their cut to develop tools and assist modders (especially before releasing FO4 patches). The more help modders get, the more content they produce, which results in more money for everyone.

As appealing as the free market sounds, I still think Valve should use some of their cut to put together a team for testing paid-mods**. Weapons & Armor? A day at most. Script-heavies? Maybe a week. Massive overhauls? Two weeks, possibly more. I don't follow the TF2/CS/DOTA2 markets but everything there is just skins, items, and more skins right? Skyrim (and FO4) are star-shaped pegs that can't be fit into round holes. However, I'll give Valve credit, they had an idea of what to go for when they released the initial patch of paid-mods (aside from the copyrighted stuff of course). Their hands-off approach is getting a little old.

Right now though? It's a wait & see situation. I've expressed a lot of anger and cynicism about this project but eh..it could be beneficial to everyone. More modders entering the scene is always a positive. How it plays out from here depends on Bethesda, Valve, and the community.

*It'll likely be another 1-2 years before FO4 is actually released if it is announced at this E3. If people are still trying to ruin the system by that time...yeesh..I don't even want to think about it.

**Obviously this won't solve everything. Everybody's TES/FO is different and troubleshooting is a constant nightmare. The main point is to offer at least some idea of what to expect, where potential conflicts lie, that sort of thing. Players that heavily-mod their games know what to expect. The most important goal is catching the blatant stuff.


*smacks forehead*
It's going to get worse before it gets any better.
 
Even though the scenarios are pretty similar though, I ultimately just don't feel like Bethesda fundamentally deserves 50% here. Part of it probably has to do with this marketplace hitting what is already a very old and established game where all of the community content already exists. It doesn't have the same sort of context of creating mutually beneficial business opportunities and promoting the development of content. The content's already there and is actually somewhat in jeopardy as a result of the marketplace. A lot of the content is fixing Skyrim's glaring problems. That's not a recipe for enthusiasm. If it had been introduced with a new product, like Fallout 4, with everything known ahead of time, the reaction would be different and an existing community wouldn't be having free things taken away from it.

They do not deserve 50% for a game they've effectively abandoned. When was the last official patch? (Version 1.9.32.0.8 came out 20 March 2013, so more than 2 years.)

The Unofficial patches on the Nexus fix thousands of bugs. Thousands. And Beth wants to sit back and reap 50% of other people's hard work? Unbelievable.

(I can see them charging for patches next. What a wonderful world.)
 
You know what? I actually can't hate on this program anymore.

If it was going to happen at any time, it had to happen now.
Releasing it alongside FO4 would've been a shitstorm, front and center. For one thing, far too many people would be concerned with not actually playing the game. The first thing they'd do is start digging through the files, see what unlocks perks, how to spawn extra caps, all that other nonsense. Before the game is out for even a day you'd go on the workshop and see a million different "pay2win apps". You're seeing it right now with the influx of (un-approved) paid-mods for Skyrim.

I dunno, I think it made it worse to release this system with a game with a still vibrant, active modding scene. If they had implemented this system with a new game, I think the backlash wouldn't have been nearly as large.
 
His songs could have been stolen and put in a game that was released on Steam, too, and Valve would not have checked or been expected to check for that. However they would respond to a properly formatted DMCA takedown request and he could sue the developer for damages.

The main difference here is that you have way more amateurs submitting paid content here who are far more likely to infringe on copyright and reproduce things without permission and use dependencies without permission. And it's mostly going to be on a much smaller scale than a full game release, so it may be arduous for the copyright holders to enforce their copyright across the whole marketplace (for example, if a hundred paid mods come out using someone's code...). It's going to be messier and Valve's QA and customer service track record for Steam isn't great, so it's understandable to be wary.
 
Man, the SkyUI team need to put Mardoxx on a leash because he's pretty much a PR disaster at this point.

No it's just a terrible community.

You are now dead to me and possibly hundreds of thousands of others. Even if this all gets reversed back I will never download anything made from you ever again. You have lost all my respect and you are so wrongfully out of touch it's embarrassing.

You are absolutely everything wrong with the modding community. A snake like you would not have been welcome in the community ten years ago.

There was until the sellouts (like you) showed their true color.
I've never used your mod anyway.

Thanks for helping in the possible downfall of PC Gaming. Really appreciate it. Hope someone releases a new UI mod to replace your shitty pay walled one.

And these aren't even the worst comments.

God forbid people pay for a product that someone has spent dozens or even hundreds of hours working on.
 
I dunno, I think it made it worse to release this system with a game with a still vibrant, active modding scene. If they had implemented this system with a new game, I think the backlash wouldn't have been nearly as large.

I'm looking at it from Bethesda's perspective(yeah I know).

They want this to die down so it doesn't overshadow FO4. Hell, with any luck journalists will forget to bring it up after the E3 announcement.
 
This disaster was set the moment that it went live goddamn valve...

It isn't like they didn't know this would happen. They have spoken publicly about this sort of thing happening plenty of times regarding opening up the store and user created content. What solutions they will have (or not) have other than DMCA is a whole other question

And these aren't even the worst comments.

God forbid people pay for a product that someone has spent dozens or even hundreds of hours working on.

In the end it is the authors' choice, as it should be. The simple fact is, this is the first opportunity for such an option to be a possibility. On top of that though, the fear mongering is ridiculous. The majority of mods remain free, plenty of the modders have come forward to support keeping their mods free, and no one is forced to pay or being locked out from creating free mods. Most importantly on top of all that, this is just the first few days, where no one knows what they are doing and are experimenting, leading to the most violent of extremes of all outcomes - exactly the same as every other change that has occurred and been "open" / user driven

This whole paid modding thing is absolutely brilliant. Valve is making millions profiting from free labour and they actually get defended for it, and Bethesda is planning on doing the same once Fallout 4 or the next Elder Scrolls is coming out. 19th century robber barons couldnt have done it any better.

Valve taking 30% / 25% cuts is nothing new and happens with pretty much all there services at some end. Whether that is too high is certainly a point of contention but more so is the publisher getting 50% - and doing next nothing (or so it seems). The ins and outs at that level are not clear at all. I have no issue with the curated workshops such as Chivalry and Dungeon Defenders 2, along with the Valve games, where the content is also checked and worked on by the developers to ensure compatibility etc essentially bringing them in as contractors but using voting systems and working directly with them to decide what becomes paid for. As an entirely open system such as Skyrim, it becomes much more grey
 
http://steamcommunity.com/workshop/...dytouseitems&days=7&requiredflags[]=paiditems

Which one of these puts music in, exactly? Because I don't see any of these putting new music as a feature.


Also, wow, creating a DMCA is really hard guys.

Do the people who have their work stolen get some of that money others made from selling it? Or does Valve/Bethesda/thief pocket that and just give a insincere "I'm sorry"?

I am seriously asking because besides from the mod getting taken down I have no idea what happens to the profits. I can see why some would be pissed if Valve and Bethesda are making a bunch of money off things they have no right to.
 
If this becomes a thing for all games it's going to make games where mods are a huge part of the appeal less attractive. Not sure I'd have been so eager to buy the latest arma when it launched if there wasn't the prospect of loads of free mods from the community for it. Not sure bohemia would have the gall to do that though considering how much their games rely on the community for support. Personally I don't care about skyrim but I can see where the concerns are coming from. For games like skyrim and arma people aren't just using one or two mods but loads of them. Thats going to get expensive really quick.
 
No it's just a terrible community.

And these aren't even the worst comments.

God forbid people pay for a product that someone has spent dozens or even hundreds of hours working on.

I'm inclined to agree with you. His mod's been dead for almost a year. He had no plans to work on it, and in all likelihood, any future mods that come out probably wouldn't bother with being compatible with the paid workshop version. He's doing the community a favor by letting it stay up on Nexus.

...now, if he had removed access to the old version, thereby crippling a whole bunch of mods that were already in place, and leveraging that dependency on a paid version, that would be what would be classified as a dick move. As is, I think he's being somewhat unfairly maligned here.
 
Its confusing at the moment, because at first glance it looks like there is a exodus from a possible voluntary community service (expecting a donation) towards a paid service.

And I wonder if the community utilizing the mods for free prior, will still continue giving suggestions or feedback to the mod authors who put up mods as a paid services.
 
This whole paid modding thing is absolutely brilliant. Valve is making millions profiting from free labour and they actually get defended for it, and Bethesda is planning on doing the same once Fallout 4 or the next Elder Scrolls is coming out. 19th century robber barons couldnt have done it any better.

I'm really not following this. Mod makers are getting paid for their work and Valve is profiteering from free labor? Wasn't Valve profiteering from free labor when mod makers weren't paid but were making a product Valve sold more compelling?
 
I really don't understand how this is legal. Mods are just the manipulation of engines and resources owned by the original developers and publishers of a game. How can Valve sell something they have no legal right to?
 
Do the people who have their work stolen get some of that money others made from selling it? Or does Valve/Bethesda/thief pocket that and just give a insincere "I'm sorry"?

I am seriously asking because besides from the mod getting taken down I have no idea what happens to the profits. I can see why some would be pissed if Valve and Bethesda are making a bunch of money off things they have no right to.

I think it happened in Dota and CS, where people stole artwork (In dota it was a weapon from WoW basically, and in CS someone basically ripped off another persons drawing and put it on a gun), and from what I understand they got banned. I don't think they got their money revoked. In this is the case, people basically got 10-40k for ripping others off. feelsgoodman

I really don't understand how this is legal. Mods are just the manipulation of engines and resources owned by the original developers and publishers of a game. How can Valve sell something they have no legal right to?
they're working with bethesda, who own the rights. they have permission and revenue is going back to the original devs/publisher
 
I really don't understand how this is legal. Mods are just the manipulation of engines and resources owned by the original developers and publishers of a game. How can Valve sell something they have no legal right to?

Bethesda agreed to it and is getting a pretty big cut of the profits from it as well.
 
You know what? I actually can't hate on this program anymore.

If it was going to happen at any time, it had to happen now.
Releasing it alongside FO4 would've been a shitstorm, front and center. For one thing, far too many people would be concerned with not actually playing the game. The first thing they'd do is start digging through the files, see what unlocks perks, how to spawn extra caps, all that other nonsense. Before the game is out for even a day you'd go on the workshop and see a million different "pay2win apps". You're seeing it right now with the influx of (un-approved) paid-mods for Skyrim.

Once this normalizes*, people will (hopefully) focus on playing through FO4, seeing how everything works, looking at what needs to be fixed, expanded upon, etc.

As far as the split is concerned, I still don't like it, but it could work. Bethesda should use a portion of their cut to develop tools and assist modders (especially before releasing FO4 patches). The more help modders get, the more content they produce, which results in more money for everyone.

As appealing as the free market sounds, I still think Valve should use some of their cut to put together a team for testing paid-mods**. Weapons & Armor? A day at most. Script-heavies? Maybe a week. Massive overhauls? Two weeks, possibly more. I don't follow the TF2/CS/DOTA2 markets but everything there is just skins, items, and more skins right? Skyrim (and FO4) are star-shaped pegs that can't be fit into round holes. However, I'll give Valve credit, they had an idea of what to go for when they released the initial patch of paid-mods (aside from the copyrighted stuff of course). Their hands-off approach is getting a little old.

Right now though? It's a wait & see situation. I've expressed a lot of anger and cynicism about this project but eh..it could be beneficial to everyone. More modders entering the scene is always a positive. How it plays out from here depends on Bethesda, Valve, and the community.

*It'll likely be another 1-2 years before FO4 is actually released if it is announced at this E3. If people are still trying to ruin the system by that time...yeesh..I don't even want to think about it.

**Obviously this won't solve everything. Everybody's TES/FO is different and troubleshooting is a constant nightmare. The main point is to offer at least some idea of what to expect, where potential conflicts lie, that sort of thing. Players that heavily-mod their games know what to expect. The most important goal is catching the blatant stuff.



*smacks forehead*
It's going to get worse before it gets any better.

I wouldn't certainly mind paying a collection of QA-approved list of mods if it means I could just download it and it simply works. It would be basically be DLC made by fans. Troubleshooting mods on Elder Scrolls can be a pain in the ass. It's why I stopped playing the base game (currently waiting for the total-conversion mod - Enderal). Right now? There's an armor set you have to put a fucking console command in to use and (before Chesko removed it) was a mod that was still WIP. And these were the ones that were put in that bundle by Valve on Day 1.
 
I really don't understand how this is legal. Mods are just the manipulation of engines and resources owned by the original developers and publishers of a game. How can Valve sell something they have no legal right to?

Probably because they got into a contractual agreement with the publisher (Bethesda) to be the distribution platform?
 
I really don't understand how this is legal. Mods are just the manipulation of engines and resources owned by the original developers and publishers of a game. How can Valve sell something they have no legal right to?

Read the damn OP. This iniative has been started with Bethesda's incentive in the first place. This wouldn't ever happen without publishers/devs consent. The legal agreements are in place and the original devs/publishers gets a cut.
 
I'm looking at it from Bethesda's perspective(yeah I know).

They want this to die down so it doesn't overshadow FO4. Hell, with any luck journalists will forget to bring it up after the E3 announcement.

I still disagree. I think if, during the FO4 reveal, they had introduced this as a "system where mod makers can voluntarily choose to charge for their work, in addition to offering it for free" then there would have been much less backlash. Hell, I think people may have even ignored it or overlooked it.
 
I think it happened in Dota and CS, where people stole artwork (In dota it was a weapon from WoW basically, and in CS someone basically ripped off another persons drawing and put it on a gun), and from what I understand they got banned. I don't think they got their money revoked. In this is the case, people basically got 10-40k for ripping others off. feelsgoodman

Well now I can see why Valve is so laid back about this stuff. Even though they and Bethesda are taking a vast majority of the profits they pretty much have no risks. I can see why some modders are taking down their mods because Valve has pretty much no incentive to prevent this and the burden is all on you.

If you found your work being infringed on and sold on the marketplace, you'd submit a DMCA takedown request, prove you're the copyright holder, and it'd be taken down from the store.

To get money back from the sales of the product you'd presumably have to sue the modder. There is no cut and dry way of addressing that since a court or a private settlement would have to arrange what percentage of the revenue you'd be entitled to based on the value of the infringing content and any potential punitive damages. And Valve would only get into trouble legally if they were found to be negligent in enforcement of copyright as per DMCA regs or whatever on a comprehensive scale, which is unlikely.

Thanks for answering. Seems to be a shitty place to be for those getting their work stolen.
 
Do the people who have their work stolen get some of that money others made from selling it? Or does Valve/Bethesda/thief pocket that and just give a insincere "I'm sorry"?

I am seriously asking because besides from the mod getting taken down I have no idea what happens to the profits. I can see why some would be pissed if Valve and Bethesda are making a bunch of money off things they have no right to.

If you found your work being infringed on and sold on the marketplace, you'd submit a DMCA takedown request, prove you're the copyright holder, and it'd be taken down from the store.

To get money back from the sales of the product you'd presumably have to sue the modder. There is no cut and dry way of addressing that since a court or a private settlement would have to arrange what percentage of the revenue you'd be entitled to based on the value of the infringing content and any potential punitive damages. And Valve would only get into trouble legally if they were found to be negligent in enforcement of copyright as per DMCA regs or whatever on a comprehensive scale, which is unlikely.
 
No it's just a terrible community.


And these aren't even the worst comments.

God forbid people pay for a product that someone has spent dozens or even hundreds of hours working on.

And people wonder why Valve put mod comments behind a paywall. Likely a temporary solution, but a necessary one to remove the unmitigated vitriol.

I'm looking at it from Bethesda's perspective(yeah I know).

They want this to die down so it doesn't overshadow FO4. Hell, with any luck journalists will forget to bring it up after the E3 announcement.

Iron out the kinks and issues that were bound to come up with this type of release as well.

What has the response been from journalists so far? I find most of the arguments for are from the rational side, while most against appeal to emotion or are inherently fallacious. Obviously, there will be growing pains along with several downsides.

Do the people who have their work stolen get some of that money others made from selling it? Or does Valve/Bethesda/thief pocket that and just give a insincere "I'm sorry"?

I am seriously asking because besides from the mod getting taken down I have no idea what happens to the profits. I can see why some would be pissed if Valve and Bethesda are making a bunch of money off things they have no right to.

Issue a DMCA complaint or take up a ticket with Steam support.
If Valce finds issue with the mod, they remove it from sale and refund customers. Payment to creators seems lagged to the point where they won't make off with the cash.

If this becomes a thing for all games it's going to make games where mods are a huge part of the appeal less attractive. Not sure I'd have been so eager to buy the latest arma when it launched if there wasn't the prospect of loads of free mods from the community for it. Not sure bohemia would have the gall to do that though considering how much their games rely on the community for support. Personally I don't care about skyrim but I can see where the concerns are coming from. For games like skyrim and arma people aren't just using one or two mods but loads of them. Thats going to get expensive really quick.

It also has the benefit of motivating publishers to have more mod support in their games by way of monetizing the community's work. By that I mean, mod tools will now have a direct profit line, where as before it would be in direct.

However, your point with Arma seems sound. This does add extra cost onto a potential purchase that didn't exist previously.
 
As it stands right now, this programme just gives people the opportunity to sell their work if they choose it, and they can still just upload mods for download for free if not. As a base standard that's pretty great, and far preferable to just locking down software to prevent modding altogether.

The only issues are coming from what people are choosing to do with that freedom, and to be honest that's an issue with human nature more than anything else.
 
If you found your work being infringed on and sold on the marketplace, you'd submit a DMCA takedown request, prove you're the copyright holder, and it'd be taken down from the store.

To get money back from the sales of the product you'd presumably have to sue the modder. There is no cut and dry way of addressing that since a court or a private settlement would have to arrange what percentage of the revenue you'd be entitled to based on the value of the infringing content and any potential punitive damages. And Valve would only get into trouble legally if they were found to be negligent in enforcement of copyright as per DMCA regs or whatever on a comprehensive scale, which is unlikely.

Which is ridiculous because 75% of the revenues from the mod don't go to the creator, but to Valve and Bethesda.
 
As it stands right now, this programme just gives people the opportunity to sell their work if they choose it, and they can still just upload mods for download for free if not. As a base standard that's pretty great, and far preferable to just locking down software to prevent modding altogether.

The only issues are coming from what people are choosing to do with that freedom, and to be honest that's an issue with human nature more than anything else.

This turns modding from a pure community driven scene into a shitty wild west app-store where everyone is ripping everyone else off to make a quick buck.

There was NOTHING wrong with the previous system! People could choose to donate to modders! People could create and share resources largely without worrying of exploitation! That's no longer the case.
 
If you found your work being infringed on and sold on the marketplace, you'd submit a DMCA takedown request, prove you're the copyright holder, and it'd be taken down from the store.

To get money back from the sales of the product you'd presumably have to sue the modder. There is no cut and dry way of addressing that since a court or a private settlement would have to arrange what percentage of the revenue you'd be entitled to based on the value of the infringing content and any potential punitive damages. And Valve would only get into trouble legally if they were found to be negligent in enforcement of copyright as per DMCA regs or whatever on a comprehensive scale, which is unlikely.

How would this work for modders stealing other modders work? Like let's say if they put a Super Mario game into a mod, by making it playable in Skyrim or something. Anywho, Nintendo can say 'Hey it's Nintendo's lawywers here's our paperwork. Take this down.' That's pretty cut and dry. But how would a modder say 'Hey this is my mod'?
 
How would this work for modders stealing other modders work? Like let's say if they put a Super Mario game into a mod, by making it playable in Skyrim or something. Anywho, Nintendo can say 'Hey it's Nintendo's lawywers here's our paperwork. Take this down.' That's pretty cut and dry. But how would a modder say 'Hey this is my mod'?

Valve and Bethesda: "Don't care, making $$$"
 
it'd be cool to have a conversation about this without this much reaction hyperbole

that song stuff could very well happen with a game and Valve wouldnt know either


Like I said earlier: I agree with this idea and I think it's great; I think it's being handled and implemented poorly, as with each time Valve does new stuff at first
 
How would this work for modders stealing other modders work? Like let's say if they put a Super Mario game into a mod, by making it playable in Skyrim or something. Anywho, Nintendo can say 'Hey it's Nintendo's lawywers here's our paperwork. Take this down.' That's pretty cut and dry. But how would a modder say 'Hey this is my mod'?
It's in the OP.
 
This turns modding from a pure community driven scene into a shitty wild west app-store where everyone is ripping everyone else off to make a quick buck.

There was NOTHING wrong with the previous system! People could choose to donate to modders! People could create and share resources largely without worrying of exploitation! That's no longer the case.

what prevented people from 'ripping off' other mods in the past? and asking for donations based on a ripoff?

of all of the issues, I believe the curation of the workshop itself to verify content as original is probably going to be the most difficult if they want anyone to be able to put a piece of work up for sale with no barrier to entry. I did see however that not all mods are approved for sale immediately which probably helps this, but what determines whether or not they get approved? Unless it is curated.. ?
 
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