Support NeoGAF

[SneakyStephan]

So, uhh, FYI, pretty much every landscaping company in existence operates with worse terms than that for its employees. In that line of work, what you're describing as the trivial elements -- having the business established, advertising the business, and getting the actual work lined up -- are the only things with actual value, since the employees' jobs would not exist otherwise, they would not be able to line up the jobs themselves, and the labor is not skilled or scarce.

Except here the lawn mower guys aren't even employees

no sick days, no health coverage, no paid vacation, no maternity leave , no worker's rights and most of all no pension

Bethesda gets a bunch of sweatshop slaves who work for peanuts with no rights or benifits, without having to pay most of the taxes that come with a regular employee wage
All while having them produce dlc for them that can be branded in a way ('mods') that has no expectations of quality control, post release support attached to it.

it's pure exploitation
Hey at least the nike factory kids get a bowl of rice, it's better than nothing /s

EA and ubisoft executives and watching this shit unfold right now and they can not believe their eyes. You can bet they are salivating (and masturbating)

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Bethesda's game depends on Windows code to run. Is it a derivative work of Windows? Also, it was probably built with Microsoft's tools (Visual Studio). The design document was probably even written in Microsoft Word.

Mod developers should be able to sell their mods freely. Users would, of course, need to buy Bethesda's game to use it, just as people who buy Syria for PC need to buy Windows to use it.

Different products works with different clauses and conditions, which depends of the companies and how they want their product to be used and it what way they want to monetize it.

The thing is, the code logic behind that crossbow and how it works on the game belongs to Bethesda, they have all the rights to claim is a derivative work. Under the actual laws, that's how things works.

 

[Nzyme32]

Might be, although isn't the situation with Dota2 as a game pretty different than Skyrim ? DOTA2 is a free to play so for me it seems that the pill is way easier to swallow (I haven't heard any major complaints like now when it was introduced anyway). It seemed much more adapted anyway from an early stage to support this kind of idea. And, well, the game is free, so I would be totally willing to have Valve have a bigger share on this, and support creatives at the same time. It also has a more solid continuous following, in my eyes at least

Skyrim it's a bit more tricky as you already pay for the game and it's subsequent DLC. Skyrim wasn't already the most rosy game when it came out. And, as of today, hasn't been updated in quite a while. Some of it's DLC (the housing one, if i recall) also has been outclassed by other mods who do a better job at it (although pretty irrelevant as of now, as I haven't seen these mods being behind a paywall so far).

That and the whole compatibility issues and technical support from both Beth and Valve yadda yadda, it's been said to death here. And the idea that Bethesda built the popularity of all it's recent games on a free creative community, while providing tools. Now it doesn't mean that creatives should not be entitled, but let's just say that was the original concept for many people when the game released.

This the exact point Valve went on and on about through out 2012 and 2013 in interviews (or rather Gabe). They see the future of games as services - free 2 play but with them and the community of content creators all making stuff and all benefiting from it. Essentially, the base game as a platform for more and more things to be built on, and the same for the mods that follow

I agree with that in theory, and I certainly feel like you do that it is far easily digestible in a free 2 play game - which is why I hate that they have done this retroactively to an established game AND are doing it without curation and support - which they DO have for their own games, as well as Chivalry and Dungeon Defenders 2 recently

 

[EviLore]

Except here the lawn mower guys aren't even employees

no sick days, no health coverage, no paid vacation, no maternity leave , no worker's rights and most of all no pension

Bethesda gets a bunch of sweatshop slaves who work for peanuts with no rights or benifits, without having to pay most of the taxes that come with a regular employee wage
All while having them produce dlc for them that can be branded in a way ('mods') that has no expectations of quality control, post release support attached to it.

it's pure exploitation
Hey at least the nike factory kids get a bowl of rice, it's better than nothing /s

EA and ubisoft executives and watching this shit unfold right now and they can not believe their eyes. You can bet they are salivating (and masturbating)

.................................Yes, it's called being an independent contractor. It's a business arrangement between two entities, not an employer/employee relationship.

 

[Hero Prinny]

Yes, now if you want the new version (and supposedly it's a big upgrade) you need to buy it (minimum $.99).

oh. nah he can eat shit, i wouldn't pay him/her. I'd stick with the free version unless its as annoying as the one with the pop ups, if its like that then I'll just say screw it altogether.

 

[MrHoot]

This the exact point Valve went on and on about through out 2012 and 2013 in interviews (or rather Gabe). They see the future of games as services - free 2 play but with them and the community of content creators all making stuff and all benefiting from it. Essentially, the base game as a platform for more and more things to be built on, and the same for the mods that follow

I agree with that in theory, and I certainly feel like you do that it is far easily digestible in a free 2 play game - which is why I hate that they have done this retroactively to an established game AND are doing it without curation and support - which they DO have for their own games, as well as Chivalry and Dungeon Defenders 2 recently

Not really a fan of the "games as a service" thing though. Not at all. It's one of the things I have kinda opposed Valve's stance on. In theory, it sounds very nice, big community behind to support it, endless stream of new content, everyone gets to have a potential share.
The problem is that in practice, it's more the worse that comes out of this: Unfinished products which are then left to the community's responsibility to fix while still reaping the profits. I'm way more in favour of game as a product as I personally believe it would enforce a higher quality control

 

[Hero Prinny]

Except here the lawn mower guys aren't even employees

no sick days, no health coverage, no paid vacation, no maternity leave , no worker's rights and most of all no pension

Bethesda gets a bunch of sweatshop slaves who work for peanuts with no rights or benifits, without having to pay most of the taxes that come with a regular employee wage
All while having them produce dlc for them that can be branded in a way ('mods') that has no expectations of quality control, post release support attached to it.

it's pure exploitation
Hey at least the nike factory kids get a bowl of rice, it's better than nothing /s

EA and ubisoft executives and watching this shit unfold right now and they can not believe their eyes. You can bet they are salivating (and masturbating)

LOL i like this post, especially the last part. i mean hey, if this gets them to release some modding tools for their games then so be it. there will be free mods anyway.

 

[Compsiox]

So do we know if Gabe is going to change anything yet?

 

[PedroLumpy]

So do we know if Gabe is going to change anything yet?

Well there's this post in the GabeN AMA. That doesn't necessarily mean they will I suppose.

 

[Angry Fork]

So, uhh, FYI, pretty much every landscaping company in existence operates with worse terms than that for its employees. In that line of work, what you're describing as the trivial elements -- having the business established, advertising the business, and getting the actual work lined up -- are the only things with actual value, since the employees' jobs would not exist otherwise, they would not be able to line up the jobs themselves, and the labor is not skilled or scarce.

Not sure how those are the only aspects of value when businesses cannot survive without labor. The employees can most certainly do what the employer does. But the employer cannot do the collective labor of all the employees. The value is created by workers and their labor, not the owners.

 

[EviLore]

Not sure how those are the only aspects of value when businesses cannot survive without labor. The employees can most certainly do what the employer does. But the employer cannot do the collective labor of all the employees. The value is created by workers and their labor, not the owners.

I'm describing value as per the actual market conditions, not from a Marxist philosophical standpoint. Unskilled manual labor is bottom rung. And what people are hypothetically capable of doing does not translate into what they actually accomplish.

 

[Angry Fork]

Fair enough.

 

[draetenth]

Huh, I was browsing the paid mods awaiting approval and saw that, Joop who created Better Combat AI (only on Steam Workshop as far as I can tell), is going to release (if approved I suppose) Better Combat AI (Donation Version). The free version will still be updated (and first according to the mod description), but I guess this is for those who want to support him (looks like $.25 - don't know if that's a minimum price or recommended).

 

[ginger ninja]

So if i understand correctly, mod makers have the option to sell their mods if they like or they can still give it away for free like before..How is this a bad thing ?
forgive me If i am simplifying, not a pc gamer.

 

[reckless]

So if i understand correctly, mod makers have the option to sell their mods if they like or they can still give it away for free like before..How is this a bad thing ?

Just some things.

Valve/ Bethesda takes 75% of the revenue.

This harms cooperation between different modders and mod teams.

Leads to plagiarized mods and mod authors having to buy and test out mods to look for stolen content

No guarantees that a mod will work by itself or with other paid mods

The refund policy is only 24 hours so if anything happens after that the customer is out of luck

 

[Lesath]

Just some things.

Valve/ Bethesda takes 75% of the revenue.

This harms cooperation between different modders and mod teams.

Leads to plagiarized mods and mod authors having to buy and test out mods to look for stolen content

No guarantees that a mod will work by itself or with other paid mods

The refund policy is only 24 hours so if anything happens after that the customer is out of luck

Also you only get refunded in Steam credit so the money stays in Valve/Bethesda's pockets.

 

[Deadbeat]

The only good thing out of this is we know Fallout 4 and Elder Scrolls 6 will have mod support. They arent leaving this cash behind.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

Just some things.

Valve/ Bethesda takes 75% of the revenue.

Appropriately though. 40% bethesda, it is their game and steam requires permission. 35% steam. I read this on reddit iirc.

This harms cooperation between different modders and mod teams.

Before you required permission, at least legally, to use someone's content even in a mod. Most (if not all) people gave it freely. Some might choose to have profit sharing if you are selling the mod. Sounds really fair and the system already supports profit sharing so I don't think it actually harms cooperation unless people let it.

Leads to plagiarized mods and mod authors having to buy and test out mods to look for stolen content

Fair enough. Gabe did say they are working on ways to stop this without really revealing what it is exactly. I'd imagine some kind of script that identifies potential theft.

No guarantees that a mod will work by itself or with other paid mods

True, but bad mods will get bad ratings. It'll also plummet that modder's reputation if the mod doesn't work. I think a little bit of caution in what you buy is necessary always, but perhaps a little bit more with mods.

The refund policy is only 24 hours so if anything happens after that the customer is out of luck

The 24 hour refund policy does seem a bit short. I mostly agree with that. The problem here is I am guessing that longer time periods could be abused or create disincentives certain kinds of content being published for sale. Imagine if you could buy a full game that lasts like a couple hours, like gone home, and then get a full refund. So maybe 24 hours is enough without being too easily abused.

 

[Bluth54]

EA and ubisoft executives and watching this shit unfold right now and they can not believe their eyes. You can bet they are salivating (and masturbating)

I doubt it, Valve has been doing this since 2010 when they added the in game store in TF2 and they have made tens of millions of dollars off of items made by the community for TF2/CSGO/DOTA2 and EA/Ubisoft hasn't done anything like this.

 

[Grief.exe]

I wonder if that $10k remark by Gabe was in reference to Valve's cut or total revenue, I'd imagine it's the former as that was the context.

 

[reckless]

Before you required permission, at least legally, to use someone's content even in a mod. Most (if not all) people gave it freely. Some might choose to have profit sharing if you are selling the mod. Sounds really fair and the system already supports profit sharing so I don't think it actually harms cooperation unless people let it.

We've already seen Wet and Cold get a DMCA take down notice because it uses parts of other mods and they don't want to charge. The giant mob collaboration made mods in Elder Scrolls and that is going to be destroyed due to different beliefs.

Fair enough. Gabe did say they are working on ways to stop this without really revealing what it is exactly. I'd imagine some kind of script that identifies potential theft.

Then they should wait until they have some type of solution, right now they have nothing except DMCA take downs, which is not even close to a viable solution.

True, but bad mods will get bad ratings. It'll also plummet that modder's reputation if the mod doesn't work. I think a little bit of caution in what you buy is necessary always, but perhaps a little bit more with mods.

So what happens a year from now or two years when all of the reviews are out of date, or some new mod update breaks compatibility with some other paid mods? Just too bad?

The 24 hour refund policy does seem a bit short. I mostly agree with that. The problem here is I am guessing that longer time periods could be abused or create disincentives certain kinds of content being published for sale. Imagine if you could buy a full game that lasts like a couple hours, like gone home, and then get a full refund. So maybe 24 hours is enough without being too easily abused.

It's way too short, some mod problems don't come up for hours, and then figuring out which mod is causing the problem can take even longer. Not to mention an update to the game a week later can break the mod and if the author doesn't fix it then too bad I guess.

This whole thing is not thought out enough, and is just a cash grab right now.

 

[jgwhiteus]

I don't know if this has been described or discussed (I've been trying to keep up with this topic and the AMA, etc.), but how will updates work? If you buy a mod once will you be entitled to all future updates to the mod, even significant ones?

A lot of mods (especially bug-fix ones) are updated regularly whenever there's a new patch, for example, and new issues pop up in the game or new features become available. So if you have a mod creator who comes up with "Skyrim Bug Patch 1.0", will everyone who buys it be entitled to version 1.2, 1.6, 2.1, 3.0, etc.? And if so, aren't there diminishing returns for the modder after the initial release, because s/he isn't receiving that much more revenue for the extra work s/he's putting in? (I guess the same way there's diminishing returns to the developer / publisher for bug fixes, which is why you don't see patching being a huge focus post-launch in the first place...)

I can see "responsible" modders having to put in a lot of extra work for very little money to satisfy their "customers", and other modders just abandoning updates because it's not worth the extra time and effort. With free community mods I feel people are willing to pick up the slack or pitch in when a modder gets overwhelmed, but obviously in this case that's complicated if the original modder received the lion's share of initial revenue.

Also, it seems likely that people will feel "locked in" to the first version of a mod they purchase - because there's no way I'm going to spend $5 on "Bug Patch 1.0" and then another $5 if someone comes out with "Improved Bug Fixes 1.0" the next day. So I guess it might lead to a "gold rush" mentality of being the very first person to come out with a mod (which might be good for speeding up mod creation), but it also dis-incentivizes anyone who wasn't "first" from contributing further and potentially better improvements, because purchasers will feel locked into the mod they started with (which I'd consider a negative).

I'm rambling a bit, but it really is uncharted territory here and I'm not wild about some of the implications of moving towards a paid model where mods begin to resemble, for example, the mobile freemium market. Nor am I reassured by a philosophy of "the market will take care of it, people" - it's not a true "free market"; it's a curated market overseen by Valve, the same way the App Store is a curated market, and Apple's submission and content policies and search algorithms have dramatic effects on what gets seen and downloaded and what financial incentives get created.

 

[Aselith]

Appropriately though. 40% bethesda, it is their game and steam requires permission. 35% steam. I read this on reddit iirc.

It's 25% valve 50% bethesda

I don't know if this has been described or discussed (I've been trying to keep up with this topic and the AMA, etc.), but how will updates work? If you buy a mod once will you be entitled to all future updates to the mod, even significant ones?

You buy the base mod and then you can also buy a season pass which entitles you to most mod updates except for a few premium DLC updates.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

We've already seen Wet and Cold get a DMCA take down notice because it uses parts of other mods and they don't want to charge. The giant mob collaboration made mods in Elder Scrolls and that is going to be destroyed due to different beliefs.

It sounds harsh but that is the reality we live in. You can't just take someone else's intellectual property and use it without their consent, even if the product is not even being sold.

Then they should wait until they have some type of solution, right now they have nothing except DMCA take downs, which is not even close to a viable solution.

I'd imagine if you made decisions based on what some douche may or may not do to take advantage of you, nothing would ever get done and I doubt the system will ever be perfect either way.

So what happens a year from now or two years when all of the reviews are out of date, or some new mod update breaks compatibility with some other paid mods? Just too bad?

Mod developers have incentive, like any developer, to update their product otherwise that shit will just sink to the bottom and their reputation will be ruined.

People can also update or give additional reviews.

It's way too short, some mod problems don't come up for hours, and then figuring out which mod is causing the problem can take even longer. Not to mention an update to the game a week later can break the mod and if the author doesn't fix it then too bad I guess.

I think that is a fair point to bring up about the mods not always being compatible with each other.

This whole thing is not thought out enough, and is just a cash grab right now.

I guess you could look at anything that earns money as a cash grab. Sure, some people might be willing to put low amounts of work to make a cheap buck. But the real successful people will put in the effort, value, and support required to make great mods.

edit:
Just to re-visit this whole thing about mods using other mod's content. I think that is a no brainer. Even if that other mod content is free. But lets separate one thing. There can be a mod that is dependent on another mod to work. I think that is fair game to post, regardless of whether or not the mod has permission to be dependent on the other mod. As long as the mod doesn't contain the content of the dependency (and thus no longer really be dependent but actual IP theft) and as long as the store page is clear with a warning like "you must own this mod before installation", then there is nothing wrong.

But in the other case, if you're taking even free mods and putting them in your mod for sale, you are preventing the mod owner from exercising control over his own product. That person may want to sell the mod on their own. They no longer exclusivity of their own product if that kind of behavior was allowed to stand.

 

[neoism]

Get used to it basically. They have said this previously and are now saying it again - they will let the devs or pubs do what they want whether their decisions are good or bad - that is their philosophy.

Rip in peace PC modding...

 

[reckless]

It sounds harsh but that is the reality we live in. You can't just take someone else's intellectual property and use it without their consent, even if the product is not even being sold.

There was a lot less incentive before to do that, and if people did the consequences weren't that bad, now instead of just getting credit for some else's work they get money too.

I'd imagine if you made decisions based on what some douche may or may not do to take advantage of you, nothing would ever get done and I doubt the system will ever be perfect either way.

There are already cases of it happening with what 20 mods on sale? Not asking for perfect, the current system is laughable. What happens when there are thousands of mod when valve can't even handle 20?

Mod developers have incentive, like any developer, to update their product otherwise that shit will just sink to the bottom and their reputation will be ruined.

Developers have a lot more riding on their games then some modder. It's also really easy to erase your reputation, just buy a new copy of the game and make a new steam account = new reputation, companies aren't that easy.

People can also update or give additional reviews.

And if they don't? Or what happens to the people that write the bad reviews? Someone has to get stuck with a broken product to write the reviews about it broken in the first place.

I think that is a fair point to bring up about the mods not always being compatible with each other.

Not always is an understatement. And steam workshop mods (at least the free ones) auto update if that happens with paid ones then there is nothing you can do.

I guess you could look at anything that earns money as a cash grab. Sure, some people might be willing to put low amounts of work to make a cheap buck. But the real successful people will put in the effort, value, and support required to make great mods.

No its a cash grab from Valve and Bethesda, they saw a game that hasn't been making much money in a while but is still being played by tens of thousands of people and wondered how to monetize it. They don't care what happens to the modding scene, they just want money.

 

[bounchfx]

They don't care what happens to the modding scene, they just want money.

hm, I strongly disagree with this, at least on Valve's part. Bethesda probably saw it as a way to 1) monetize a 'dead' game, and 2) beta test a system for future titles.

as for valve, I'm 100% certain they give VERY big shits about the mod scene, as it's in their blood, and a better + more thriving mod scene only benefits both them & the players in the long run.

but sure whatever

 

[MUnited83]

Rip in peace PC modding...

Every PC modder is the exactly same person confirmed.

 

[reckless]

hm, I strongly disagree with this, at least on Valve's part. Bethesda probably saw it as a way to 1) monetize a 'dead' game, and 2) beta test a system for future titles.

as for valve, I'm 100% certain they give VERY big shits about the mod scene, as it's in their blood, and a better + more thriving mod scene only benefits both them & the players in the long run.

but sure whatever

Then you'd think that they would have taken some time with this idea instead of just springing it on people. Maybe iron out some of the huge problems with it, before it goes live.

A better modding scene is subjective, a million people buying some retextured armor or swords is a lot better from their point of view then a thousand people buying some mod huge in scope and scale.

 

[bounchfx]

Then you'd think that they would have taken some time with this idea instead of just springing it on people. Maybe iron out some of the huge problems with it, before it goes live.

A better modding scene is subjective, a million people buying some retextured armor or swords is a lot better from their point of view then a thousand people buying some mod huge in scope and scale.

a lot of things are really hard to iron out in a closed environment. you can probably expect this to evolve as they learn more about how both the modders and consumers use the service

as for your second point - that's completely up to the audience. Is it bad if people want to buy a sword? just because you don't want it, doesn't mean someone else might not. Having it open and available for people to create a full breadth of content is much better for everyone, and I don't think a change like this will breed a specific type being implemented more than another. You may see a shitload of swords and staves and crap on the market, but that would be because they're much, much quicker to make, and if people buy them, then why not? Vote with your wallet. It's about choice, and it's not going to 'kill' the scene as much as you might want to believe. The bigger/amazing stuff will always be far fewer simply because of the scope and time these projects take, but I guarantee you with the extra incentive this brings (assuming it all doesn't fall to shit), we will see more & better content in the future. A lot of this stuff is longer term, however, and people will have to sit tight.

 

[reckless]

a lot of things are really hard to iron out in a closed environment. you can probably expect this to evolve as they learn more about how both the modders and consumers use the service

as for your second point - that's completely up to the audience. Is it bad if people want to buy a sword? just because you don't want it, doesn't mean someone else might not. Having it open and available for people to create a full breadth of content is much better for everyone, and I don't think a change like this will breed a specific type being implemented more than another. You may see a shitload of swords and staves and crap on the market, but that would be because they're much, much quicker to make, and if people buy them, then why not? Vote with your wallet. It's about choice, and it's not going to 'kill' the scene as much as you might want to believe. The bigger/amazing stuff will always be far fewer simply because of the scope and time these projects take, but I guarantee you with the extra incentive this brings (assuming it all doesn't fall to shit), we will see more & better content in the future. A lot of this stuff is longer term, however, and people will have to sit tight.

Most of these things are pretty common sense type problems.

Voting with your wallet doesn't work. I've voted with my wallet against terrible DLC, against pre - order bonuses, and for developers that do the right thing... But it doesn't matter because the market is just so big and there are enough people that just don't care.

Even in your ideal world, there are only going to be a few "big" awesome projects, and I don't think a couple awesome mods that may or may not have been created now offset all the problems that come up with the small and medium sized mods.

 

[Skux]

Funny how Gaben has gone from saviour of PC gaming to public enemy #1 overnight.

 

[neoism]

Every PC modder is the exactly same person confirmed.

Well I never said that but ok but this is just the start for ""modding""... Even with this insane back lash which I'm glad about it my make valve think but probably not the developers of the games. I call it modding/ mods because when you have pay for it it's not a mod it's called dlc.... I played skyrim without buying any of their dlc... I think I got about 40 hours out of the game and was getting bored. Until I started modding the shit out of the game, ended up playing over 250 hours all because of mods. I downloaded over 200+ over the course of a year or soo. Hell modding is a game in of its self and it was fucking fun... This REEALLY put a damper an my excitement for ES 6 and fallout 4 :/ fucking Bethesda... Shm..
If they are going to this for those titles in even more possible excess then I may as we'll not even bother with the PC version makes me sad...

Also I'm not saying in anyway that a person that puts in time and effort in a great mod does not deserve money for their efforts... Hell of a lot more than 25% but it's dlc not ""mods""

 

[bounchfx]

Most of these things are pretty common sense type problems.

Voting with your wallet doesn't work. I've voted with my wallet against terrible DLC, against pre - order bonuses, and for developers that do the right thing... But it doesn't matter because the market is just so big and there are enough people that just don't care.

Even in your ideal world, there are only going to be a few "big" awesome projects, and I don't think a couple awesome mods that may or may not have been done now offset all the problems that come up with the small and medium sized mods.

Yeah, I agree. It's going to be interesting to see how it plays out, but I have no doubt it will lead to the creation of really awesome stuff that we wouldn't have otherwise.

you mention how there would be a lot of terrible DLC... have you even looked at what's out on the Skyrim workshop prior to this launch? most of it was hot trash. This is nothing new :\

and again, if a shitload of people are buying it, that means there is a market for it, even though it might not be for some of us. I'm sure there will be a variety but only time will tell. I just don't see it being a net negative change. I could be wrong.

 

[Granadier]

The one thing I see personally that this system could use is just the curation process that already exists for DOTA/CS/TF2.

If it passes curation it can be sold, otherwise leave it as a free mod.

 

[reckless]

Yeah, I agree. It's going to be interesting to see how it plays out, but I have no doubt it will lead to the creation of really awesome stuff that we wouldn't have otherwise.

you mention how there would be a lot of terrible DLC... have you even looked at what's out on the Skyrim workshop prior to this launch? most of it was hot trash. This is nothing new :\

and again, if a shitload of people are buying it, that means there is a market for it, even though it might not be for some of us. I'm sure there will be a variety but only time will tell. I just don't see it being a net negative change. I could be wrong.

Maybe.

Yeah there was a ton of junk but at least it was free, now its going to be paid trash. Hell, loading up a ton of terrible mods just to mess around with was a lot of fun. The big problem i see is that some mods looked great at first but turned out to be terrible in some way, now I would have to go play through pretty much everything a mod has to offer in 24 hours or I'm screwed, and that really hurts enjoyment instead of taking my time to see what the mod offers now we're going to have to rush through it to make sure its not a ripoff. And then how many mods can you actually get a refund for before its "abuse", loading up different mods to just try out was a ton of fun?

That's what I'm scared of, there is a market for everything.

 

[kiunchbb]

I say fuck the modders for putting their mods up there with such horrendous terms.
The ONLY leverage modders have is refusing to participate.

Btw, if you find the terms so good, I have a lawn service I basically run, You can mow yards for my lawn service but I keep 75% of the proceeds.

Yeah, I advertise it and maintain customer service, but that justifies 75% don't you think?

If you have over 10 millions customers with lawn looking at your ad, I am willing to pay 90% of my proceed to mow lawns.

 

[StrangeTaco]

Funny how Gaben has gone from saviour of PC gaming to public enemy #1 overnight.

I don't know if I'd go that far, but I do find the shift in the public opinion towards Valve very interesting.

Kinda curious what Gabe was talking about when he posted that though, it may be the case in TF2 maybe but in just about anything else? Not so much.

Edit:

Game genres don't get popular and die out just from natural causes.

Ah okay that cleared it up a bit for me, I thought he was talking about the modding community not the gaming community in general. Thank you.

 

[FyreWulff]

I don't know if I'd go that far, but I do find the shift in the public opinion towards Valve very interesting.

Kinda curious what Gabe was talking about when he posted that though, it may be the case in TF2 maybe but in just about anything else? Not so much.

Game genres don't get popular and die out just from natural causes.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Yeah, I agree. It's going to be interesting to see how it plays out, but I have no doubt it will lead to the creation of really awesome stuff that we wouldn't have otherwise.

How?

This system isn't set up for massive collab projects that would be required for anything substantial. 5-10 people taking a cut of the 25% makes the incentive to make a large, impressive mod for money not really that present. The ROI isn't going to be there on huge mods. This is also ignoring that many people won't want to invest in a large mod that might break their game but they wouldn't know it until past the 24 hour mark. And the difficulties if one person in a team of 20 is opposed to selling the mod. All they have to do is not check the revenue split and the work of the entire team will go unpaid. People aren't going to devote resources with uncertainty like that.

You're going to find more mods that are cheap to immediately consume. Consumers will want mods that can easily and safely be tested well within 24 hours. Mod makers will want as few hands in the pie as possible to maximize profit. Collaboration will suffer. People won't want to share code and resources as much as it directly hurts them to do so. You'll have to be extra careful of theft.

You'll get mostly flaming swords and boob armor that advertises itself well and are easy sells and easy purchases for people. They can be tested in 5 minutes, are easy to get the scope of the entire mod from just screenshots, and will be impulse priced. And huge mods will continue to be infrequent releases due to the scope of the project and the number of individuals needed.

You of all people should see how this could happen, just look at the Dota 2 workshop where people continuously try to one up each other with particles and flashy effects, tie their hats to some other already established brand, and a recent trend that disappoints me, removing clothes from heroes that they have no business removing clothes from. A simple, well designed set barely has a chance anymore when you have boob Luna and crazy fire works and explosions on random B level tournaments. One off items are all but totally dead. The same heroes get similar sets every month for half a year, while heroes with barely anything get entirely ignored because they aren't popular enough and don't sell well enough.

 

[EatinOlives]

There's two aspects to this discussion, which I'm noticing a lot of people are mixing the two:

1) Ideologically, should modders have an "official" way of charging for their own mods?

2) Is Valve's specific implementation of paid mods good enough?

The first is something that many people are debating, but in my eyes I don't think it's right to demand that modders must work for absolutely nothing or else it's not "out of passion".

The second, however, is something that I'm seeing many present arguments for without truly understanding what the arguments are about: people against Valve's implementation of paid mods do not necessarily mean people are against paid mods in general.

I see several modders actually doing this. They're defending Valve's implementation when in reality what they're defending is the concept, but that doesn't actually mean Valve's implementation is something to be defended or praised. "I really want a legal avenue through which to charge for mods" -> "Valve has just introduced a legal avenue through which to charge for mods", therefore "Valve's legal avenue is necessarily the correct implementation", when in reality this is just faulty logic.

Take, for instance, the DayZ's author's response on Forbes. He argues that yes, the 25% revenue cut is much better than a flat fee or none at all, but what he's not considering is the fact that neither Valve nor Bethesda gave him any say. He has been given absolutely no chance for negotiation, which if he was talking with them for a licensing deal such as this, wouldn’t actually happen. The fact that Bethesda started and ended the conversation with "you're getting paid 25%" is significant. Psychologically there's a difference between coming up to you and saying "you'll now get paid, let's talk about what your cut should be" and "you'll now get paid 25% period". They can't frame their argument around any figure other than the real one they've been given, so naturally the inclination is to defend said real figure.

I really don't want to trash modders in the least bit, and I really do appreciate their input regarding the concept of paid mods, but I think we shouldn't forget that they're not completely impartial nor unbiased. That Bethesda said they could legally get any cut at all is leaps and bounds what they could before, but despite the fact that 25% is given there's no way of knowing what they would've actually wanted if they had a say. Now several modders are in support of 25% simply because it's the only option available and it's way better than it was before, but that doesn't make this defacto option the best or most sensible one. They likely would've said the same thing with a 20% or 15% cut, as their arguments are pretty much unchanged. It's why taking the stance that "well many of the most famous modders are OK with this so I guess it's OK", is problematic, because that party is happy to get any kind of payment at all but it doesn't mean it's the best option for everyone involved. Not to mention in more simple terms it's just an appeal to authority.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

There was a lot less incentive before to do that, and if people did the consequences weren't that bad, now instead of just getting credit for some else's work they get money too.

It actually takes time before payouts are given. And you need to earn 100 bucks before that as well. That means you've sold 400 dollars of content before people noticed it is stolen. It isn't going to be rampant by any means. If it happens it will be small scale.

And again, not doing something because some asshat might abuse the system. Hell, if people let others dictate them like that, we wouldn't even have PC gaming because of piracy. And furthermore, to post something you need to provide a lot of personal information. From what I understand, it asks for info that is difficult to fake. I can't find a list of exactly what it asks atm tho.

There is real risk if you try and sell someone else's content, including personal liability.

There are already cases of it happening with what 20 mods on sale? Not asking for perfect, the current system is laughable. What happens when there are thousands of mod when valve can't even handle 20?

This is most likely growing pains. I mean, it should not have happened because he should know about this kind of stuff. It is not cool to use someone else's IP without their permission. And it was taken down within like 3 days? How is a bad example?

Developers have a lot more riding on their games then some modder. It's also really easy to erase your reputation, just buy a new copy of the game and make a new steam account = new reputation, companies aren't that easy.

Modders have a lot on the line when they release a product as well.

Also... new steam account = new reputation? Yeah, I guess that works for people who pay literally no attention to who they are buying from. All ratings set back to zero for their content on the workshop. It probably won't even get exposure among all the other mods.

No its a cash grab from Valve and Bethesda, they saw a game that hasn't been making much money in a while but is still being played by tens of thousands of people and wondered how to monetize it. They don't care what happens to the modding scene, they just want money.

They have a vested interest in the modding community working out. As others suggested, the modding scene keeps the game thriving. And allowing modders to sell their products is not going to suddenly ruin the modding scene.

 

[chocoedd]

Is it just me or the Wet And Cold paid mod in the Workshop just received a DMCA takedown notice?

 

[EatinOlives]

Is it just me or the Wet And Cold paid mod in the Workshop just received a DMCA takedown notice?

I'm seeing that as well.

 

[Compsiox]

Is it just me or the Wet And Cold paid mod in the Workshop just received a DMCA takedown notice?

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

Is it just me or the Wet And Cold paid mod in the Workshop just received a DMCA takedown notice?

I'm seeing that as well.

Who'd have guessed when you literally steal from other people's hard work, it might come back and bite you in the ass.

 

[params7]

Who'd have guessed when you literally steal from other people's hard work, it might come back and bite you in the ass.

Haha, let them cannibalize on each other now.

I'm a big fan of mods, though I've never been a fan of Bethesda and never really played an ES/FO game for more than 2 hours. I was planning to play Skyrim with one of those overhaul challenging mods that removes the handholding and such, but no more, there are better companies to support.

 

[SparkTR]

I think they should only implement it for a select few mods, the rest get a prominent optional donate button. Stuff like Nehrim and its sequel that were developed by a large team of people should be paid and given more visibility.

 

[jgwhiteus]

I looked at what was behind that "Wet and Cold" DMCA notice, and I found this discussion illuminating:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/comments/429374670

Ruse
Yes, I saw people posting about filing a DCMA violation on the Nexus, but they also were under the false impression it contained all the assets the Nexus version did. Not everyone does their homework.

volvaga0 [author]
@RUSE You are correct, that's the reason why I am involved. I've been making assets for use in the new Wet and Cold and am continuing to do so. I've made replacement models for the ones that were previously borrowed from other mod authors.

Big Deano
Are you absolutely sure of that? I say that because I am one of the ones who bought the mod out of respect for you and Isoku, and the cloaks do look like cloaks of skyrim being honest, to the point that I cant tell the difference ingame between them. That seems like it may be your problem Volvaga0.

volvaga0 [author]
100% sure. The fact that you say you can't tell the difference is a compliment in itself.

Um... not to get too deep into IP law, but isn't creating something visually indistinguishable from someone else's work, even if you do all the work yourself, still a copyright violation? "Look at this character I drew myself!" "That looks like Mickey Mouse." "Yeah, you can't tell the difference, but I drew him myself and didn't copy and paste, so it's fine. What a compliment!"

Like, I'm pretty sure that's not how it works.

 

[CybernatonEvolution]

These mods are just a bunch of Skyrim .esm scripts and some custom made textures/assets that I may or may not have the the rights to use in any product but Skyrim; mods don't seem like proper licensed products or IPs--they barely work other mods to begin with.

It just strikes me as a dumb product to sell. If these modders want to sell textures and scripts, do it in some other marketplace or get hired as part-time video game developers (programmers and designers); I understand that they are making Skyrim mods specifically because of how popular and moddable that game is--justifies Bethesda having a resonable share in this whole deal.