Smartjoy FRAG, and the ethic of a competitive fps player in Halo2.

Simply think of it this way. Open a bunch of windows in random positions on your desktop. Now quickly close them by clicking the x in the top right corner.... now imagine trying to do that with a game controller in the same amount of time.
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This analogy only works if the person is new to an analog stick's movements and not to the movements of a mouse. Let me put it this way, crank your mouse sensitivity to something you're not used to and try and nail that X as easily as you would when you're on a setting you're used to. I guarantee you it won't be easy for awhile, but you'll get better at it and cope with it if you try. Getting used to an analog stick and the movements in Halo 2 is no different.
 
Halo does not have a lookspring control setup....there is no penalty for releasing the stick and returning to a "zero position" (as there was in primitive console FPS titles). Pushing the analog stick to MAX and then stopping and letting it spring back to centered position does not make the camera move.
 
Ryu said:
This analogy only works if the person is new to an analog stick's movements and not to the movements of a mouse. Let me put it this way, crank your mouse sensitivity to something you're not used to and try and nail that X as easily as you would when you're on a setting you're used to. I guarantee you it won't be easy for awhile, but you'll get better at it and cope with it if you try. Getting used to an analog stick and the movements in Halo 2 is no different.
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Again, it's the ability to stop on a dime without having to return to a zero position.

When you aim with a controller you have to push all the way to the outer most edge of stick, and then quickly return to the zero position. You have to judge in a split second when to start to release the stick and pull it back to center. With this device you do not have that issue
 
border said:
Halo does not have a lookspring control setup....there is no penalty for releasing the stick and returning to a "zero position" (as there was in primitive console FPS titles). Pushing the analog stick to MAX and then stopping and letting it spring back to centered position does not make the camera move.
Click to expand...

I don't quite understand. I'm talking about the ability to stop the movement, not return to center of the screen. You need to return the stick to the zero postion in order to stop movement in one direction. With a mouse, you just need to stop.
 
Ryu said:
This analogy only works if the person is new to an analog stick's movements and not to the movements of a mouse. Let me put it this way, crank your mouse sensitivity to something you're not used to and try and nail that X as easily as you would when you're on a setting you're used to. I guarantee you it won't be easy for awhile, but you'll get better at it and cope with it if you try. Getting used to an analog stick and the movements in Halo 2 is no different.
Click to expand...


I’ve used an analogue controller and a mouse for years. I'm used to its movement and closing windows on my desktop with a controller would be a nightmare. The analogy works fine because a mouse in inherently more accurate.

I feel like I'm in the friggin twilight zone. How can people not understand this? It's like I'm standing on the street and people are pointing at the sun and telling me it's the moon.
 
Okay....is stopping aim movement really that difficult? All you do on a pad is release your thumb. On a mouse, you stop moving your wrist/forearm. If there is any difference, it's like a fraction of a fraction of a second.
 
border said:
Okay....is stopping aim movement really that difficult? All you do on a pad is release your thumb. On a mouse, you stop moving your wrist/forearm. If there is any difference, it's like a fraction of a fraction of a second.
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Good god almighty. I'm dreaming right? This isn't actually hapenning right?

I'm curious. Do you play both PC Fps's, and Console Fps's? I can only chalk this wierdness up to people not playing both, or simply not understanding simple machanics.

Yes that fraction of a second matters. It's not really the time...it's the distance. The controll stick in a console controller has probably 1 inch play from max upwards to max downwards. 50% of your movement is used in stopping on an object. With a mouse no movement is needed to stop. You spend half of your movement playing a FPS with a contoller is just slowing and stoping.
 
gohepcat said:
Good god almighty. I'm dreaming right? This isn't actually hapenning right?

I'm curious. Do you play both PC Fps's, and Console Fps's? I can only chalk this wierdness up to people not playing both, or simply not understanding simple machanics.

Yes that fraction of a second matters. It's not really the time...it's the distance. The controll stick in a console controller has probably 1 inch play from max upwards to max downwards. 50% of your movement is used in stopping on an object. With a mouse no movement is needed to stop. You spend half of your movement playing a FPS with a contoller is just slowing and stoping.
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What you say makes sense to those who want to understand it, but some of us don't want to understand it.


:lol :lol :lol
 
It sucks that you can't filter people by controller. Good thing is that this is not widespread out so much, but I do believe using a mouse gives you an unfair advantage. It won't hurt Halo 2 because of the number of people playing, but it can hurt smaller games if a significant portion of people start to use the adapter(say 5%). Xbox live is all about an even playground. I'm sure MS/Bungie will try to address this, at least with the next version of xbox.

To those of you who say this isn't cheating, do you wonder if it will be allowed in real tournaments? Of course not, and everybody knows why.
 
This thread is pretty funny. People saying it's cheating, but cheating would mean you're playing in a manner that breaks the rules. With the adapter you're still playing by the rules set by the game and control input. The only difference being is how that input is handled, which allows for the comparison in fighting games between controllers and arcade sticks or steering wheel and analog stick in driving games. Whether or not a game was designed to use it doesn't matter because many times advantages are found in games that the developers didn't plan on (such as boosting or building "ladders" to get to hard to reach places). Sometimes those advantages are taken away later on if it gives a really unfair advantage, but considering how so many people here have said there isn't much of an advantage the whole point is moot.

People will always have an advantage in games, whether it's through hours of practice, different types of controllers, or whatever, so the playing field will never be even.
 
luxsol said:
This thread is pretty funny. People saying it's cheating, but cheating would mean you're playing in a manner that breaks the rules. With the adapter you're still playing by the rules set by the game and control input. The only difference being is how that input is handled, which allows for the comparison in fighting games between controllers and arcade sticks or steering wheel and analog stick in driving games. Whether or not a game was designed to use it doesn't matter because many times advantages are found in games that the developers didn't plan on (such as boosting or building "ladders" to get to hard to reach places). Sometimes those advantages are taken away later on if it gives a really unfair advantage, but considering how so many people here have said there isn't much of an advantage the whole point is moot.

People will always have an advantage in games, whether it's through hours of practice, different types of controllers, or whatever, so the playing field will never be even.
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an aim bot doesn't break the rules of the game either. it still moves by the rules of the control input.
 
thorns said:
an aim bot doesn't break the rules of the game either. it still moves by the rules of the control input.
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I'm really not sure how aimbots work, but from my understanding it's an outside source apart from a controller and the game. It works automatically and you're not in direct control, which is very different from a controller being handled manually. Can we agree that a third source is considered cheating? It's like someone doing your homework and claiming it's your own work, and that's considered cheating last i heard.

It may work within rules of the game, but that's considered cheating because you're not controlling it.
 
The only time I can see playing with the mouse and keyboard adapter being unethical would be in a tournament situation, where the adapter is expressedly forbidden. Otherwise everyone is fair game. It's an fps kids, no one is gonna hold your hand. Doing good in some random match isn't going to have any importance.
 
I don't know why it wouldn't be allowed (if what people in here say is true) in a tournament. It'd be like banning steering wheels or arcade sticks (which also gives an advantage to those that use them) for other games.
 
luxsol said:
or arcade sticks (which also gives an advantage to those that use them)
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There is was.

Let me specify that in any fighting game worth a tournament, the fighter would have been originally designed for an arcade stick. Obviously, Street Fighter on anything without a six button face is an afterthought.

So the reason why sticks should be excluded from this arguement is that arcade spawned fighter = arcade sticks.
By the same token, Halo was designed for gamepads with analog sticks, and heavily crafted towards that end, I might add. Take that for what you will.

So next time I bring a stick to an Budakai tourney, you can yell at me, but until then, don't bitch because I use a stick for DOA.
 
ArcadeStickMonk said:
There is was.

Let me specify that in any fighting game worth a tournament, the fighter would have been originally designed for an arcade stick. Obviously, Street Fighter on anything without a six button face is an afterthought.

So the reason why sticks should be excluded from this arguement is that arcade spawned fighter = arcade sticks.
By the same token, Halo was designed for gamepads with analog sticks, and heavily crafted towards that end, I might add. Take that for what you will.

So next time I bring a stick to an Budakai tourney, you can yell at me, but until then, don't bitch because I use a stick for DOA.
Click to expand...
Yeah, analogy doesn't quite work for most fighters. It could be banning arcade sticks or control pads, because people are more comfortable (proficient) with what they're used to (console gamers vs arcade fans). And that's what it comes down to.

Those who use a Smartjoy Frag most likely come from a PC gaming background, so they're more comfortable with keyboard and mouse than controller.

Only reason i see for banning it is the incorrect assumption that it would work exactly how it does on PC.
 
gohepcat said:
Yes that fraction of a second matters. It's not really the time...it's the distance. The controll stick in a console controller has probably 1 inch play from max upwards to max downwards. 50% of your movement is used in stopping on an object. With a mouse no movement is needed to stop. You spend half of your movement playing a FPS with a contoller is just slowing and stoping.
Click to expand...
Except that you don't have to "move" to stop on an object. Release the thumbstick and it automatically springs to zero position.
an aim bot doesn't break the rules of the game either. it still moves by the rules of the control input.
Click to expand...
No, it completely removes the input. It's been a long time since I've seen a bot in action (Quake 2 days), but you could basically just run around and it would pull of pinpoint shots without any kind of prompting from the user....I can only assume that they've stayed the same or gotten better since then. Input comes from a software program, not the PS/2 or USB port....essentially breaking a fundamental rule.
 
One point that I think a lot of people are missing is that on the PC it is standard practice to gain an advantage over your opponent by using better equipment. People upgrade their video cards so they can get a better framerate, sign up for a high speed connection to lower their ping, buy expensive headphones, use a voice chat program like Roger Wilco to communicate with their teammates, and invest in those crazy keyboards and mice designed specifically for games.

Xbox Live will naturally be a bit more even since everyone runs the same graphics hardware (did anyone ever figure out how to overclock an Xbox?). But people are still going to look for legal ways to gain an advantage whenever they can, whether that's through a better TV, better net connection, better headset, or their choice of input device, including keyboard and mouse. The last I looked, there was no rule in Halo 2 that forbade certain input devices.
 
shpankey said:
who are you guys trying to convince more, us or yourselves? i can't figure that out. i mean, why are we even having this discussion, it's not like cheaters would ever stop cheating based off of any logic told to them. they're cheaters. i mean, it's obvious, all you're looking for in here is an "it's ok". you want to feel better about yourself and believe you're not a cheater.

the simple fact is, if you use this device, which was created to give a player a significant advantage over everone else, a device the developer did not intend (and I have NO doubt at all will try to ban from XBL -- you watch) for you to use in a competitive environment, you will be significantly better than you were without it. simply put, there will be many times when a player that would normaly have killed you, will now instead be killed, thereby changing the end result of what would have been, what SHOULD have been if you played with the same limitations as everyone else.

this whole argument about different tv's and sound systems is just smoke screen baloney and is rediculous.

so again i ask, why are we even here? you're going to keep on cheating, nothing we say will change that, and nothing we say is nothing you won't be able to spin doctor. you just want to see every argument and then think of a way to debate it and then reason it to yourself at the end of the day. then you can go to sleep at night thinking you won that game earlier (you know, the one you barely won by one point) legitimately and that it had nothing to do with your cheat device. the one you never mentioned to anyone because you knew they'da kicked your ass out on the curb for cheating if you had told them.
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i wish i could convince people to read more...

The Faceless Master said:
no, but two of my friends have it...
here's oen of their setups
halo2.jpg
Click to expand...

i don't have a smartjoy or want one, but i do understand how they work... look thru my post history, i'm a big pad advocate and don't play PC games...
 
The Faceless Master said:
i'm a big pad advocate and don't play PC games...
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That would explain why you don't understand the advantages.

I've seen many console gamers with a new PC trying to play FPS's with a game pad. They just naturally think it's easier. I always tell them that they NEED to wean themselves off of the pad, otherwise it's gonna be murder.

What's so funny about this is when you think of all the changes that a PC port goes through when switching to a console. Difficulty is toned down, aiming is adjusted. There are many quotes from developers saying "we had to change the difficulty to reflect the gamepad", yet people still think that there is no advantage.

Bizzaro world.
 
God, some of you people are so fucking brainwashed, and it's only your own fault. I'm leaving this thread. I just can't believe anyone would even dare argue the nonexistance of the obvious advantages a mouse/keyboard setup has versus a pad.

If you aren't going to own up to them, why buy a SmartJoy, or even defend it in this thread?

RETARDS, ALL OF YOU!

(except those standing for logic, I thank you...)
 
Wow, the irrational hate for this thing almost makes me want to go out and actually spend $50 more that i originally planned to buy an Xbox and also buy Smartjoy FRAG and use it with my copy of Halo 2 (had to buy the LE before they stopped making them) online.
 
gohepcat said:
That would explain why you don't understand the advantages.

I've seen many console gamers with a new PC trying to play FPS's with a game pad. They just naturally think it's easier. I always tell them that they NEED to wean themselves off of the pad, otherwise it's gonna be murder.

What's so funny about this is when you think of all the changes that a PC port goes through when switching to a console. Difficulty is toned down, aiming is adjusted. There are many quotes from developers saying "we had to change the difficulty to reflect the gamepad", yet people still think that there is no advantage.

Bizzaro world.
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yeah, because i'm a console gamer who has never had a PC until now and never played a pc game .. ever ..
 
It doesnt make a HUGE difference unless you spend alot of time sniping. Even then, most snipers are too stupid to make any difference in team games.
 
yeah its more of what your used to


but I was circle strafing, crouching, reloading, quick switching weapons in 2 seconds It felt like a slightly looser controling half life 2 and the auto aim didnt effect me at all.
 
ZombieSupaStar said:
yeah its more of what your used to


but I was circle strafing, crouching, reloading, quick switching weapons in 2 seconds It felt like a slightly looser controling half life 2 and the auto aim didnt effect me at all.
Click to expand...

So if you had to compare it to the Xbox controller, which one is better? Are you doing any better in online matches?
 
There's actually a drawback to this whole Smart Joy Frag thing. If you can't slow down the way you run, you can't use certain strategies. Yeah, maybe you can aim better, but if you have to go take a flag "stealth style", and you don't want the ennemies to see you on the radar, you probably can't, because you can only run, and even if you crouch, I think that pushing too much on the analog stick makes you run anyways. At least, I think.
 
JayFro said:
So if you had to compare it to the Xbox controller, which one is better? Are you doing any better in online matches?
Click to expand...



well if u play alot of pc fps like I have this will feel like second nature to you, the control is best described as "familiar" to what u would expect playing a pc title.

If u play primarily console fps then obviously a mouse/kb will feel akward (and vice versa)
 
Hellraizah said:
and even if you crouch, I think that pushing too much on the analog stick makes you run anyways. At least, I think.
Click to expand...

I don't think so, but I'm not sure either.
 
"Its fun to Be TEH WINNER!

yay!

point click Bam I WIN!! Yay! i beat you on your stupid controller...har har...i feel better about myself!"


...

< goes back to half life 2 >
 
yoshifumi said:
i don't see why anybody cares about gaining that extra edge over anybody unless they're somehow profiting on that extra edge.
Click to expand...
brilliance. I can't even begin to try to understand what exactly you are trying to say.

Hey I got a chance to try the Smartjoy Frag...and guess what.... I friggin OWNED everyone I played against (shocker). It's an unfair advantage plain and simple. Nothing drains the fun out of a game like an unlevel playing field. Point...Bang....Point...Bang...Point....Bang...Point...bang "Killing Spree" *yawn*

I would have no problem with it if all the people who had one were grouped in a different catagory.
 
No more steering wheels, dance pads, arcade sticks, fishing rods, bongos, or light guns in gaming anymore! THEY'RE UNFAIR TOO!!! e_e (where can i get eye rolling faces?)

Anyway, what PS2 games support USB mouse and keyboard? Playing SOCOM 2 frustrates the hell out of me with its screwed up aiming/moving scheme. I hate using the analog sticks to aim because it starts to hurt my thumbs from all the reaching and doing unnatural movements (yeah, I need to work my thumbs out more to reach a higher dexterity =P ). The game that i thought perfected FPS controls on consoles was Turok. Some games have offered similar controls but because they're optional they're not as optimized as the default settings thus suck.
 
Halo 2 rocks on a controller.

Duel wield with a mouse? LLLAAAAMMMMEEEE.

How the shit am I supposed to stand up and scream at the television while shooting fools if I am using a mouse?
 
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