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[Atari2600]

To the person that says it's not a cheat device.

It was designed to improve your ability to aim, and the game was designed with a basic controller in mind. They make the enemies a certain difficulty level, they make them attack from different positions, and different times to compensate for a controller's shortcomings. You're not playing the game the way it is intended, and you're doing it to gain an advantage. That's cheating.

 

[border]

The "advantage" is just that you get to use a control scheme that you are used to and have been perfecting since at least 1997 or 1996. That's why people prefer it -- it's more instantly accessible than jacking analog sensitivity up to 10 and trying to learn everything all over again with a game pad.

You still can't spin/turn any faster than you would with a control pad, so I fail to see how it is cheating.

 

[The Faceless Master]

i don't see how it's an advantage either... most of the people i know (including me) play Halo 2 on a pad 10 anyway... the mouse doesnt make you move/aim any faster...

plus from the games i've played with/against my friends who use smartjoy, i'm not too impressed..

 

[The Guivre]

Well, if there's going to be a debate/arguement I might as well toss in my two cents.

Firstly, the 'technical advantage' this offers over a controller is two fold. Firstly a mouse is simply more accurate than a controller. The evidence of this is found in Halo 2 itself, the aim assist feature that is present here and in Halo are there for the reason that with a controller you kind of need it. It's this aim assist that gives the SmartJoy it's second advantage. Have you ever played a game, let's say Half-Life or Counter-Strike. Do the multiplayer servers have aim assist enabled? Not many serious servers would, since most would feel it takes the emphasis off of your own skill with regard to aiming, after all, you are using a mouse. With this in mind you might liken using the SmartJoy in Halo 2 to going to a Counter-Strike server that doesn't allow Aim Assist but one guy by whatever techno magic you prefer to imagine has it anyway. I'm relatively sure you'd take issue if you ran into someone like that.

Ok, with that aside we'll adress some other statements.

Saying that this is like having a wheel for driving games isn't a very good analogy. First off, I personally prefer a controller to a wheel. Secondly driving games don't to my knowledge have some sort of steer-assist feature that a wheel would take sort of a double advantage with. Thirdly, driving games you could argue were INTENDED to be used with a wheel, after all you don't go into an arcade and find a bunch of dual shocks sticking out of the machines.

The fact that there is a turn limit in Halo 2, just as there was in the first doesn't somehow mean all other points are invalid. Sure, a guy may still have that increased advantage coming up from behind but in a face to face encounter, the aim assist and the mouses' natural advantage with accuracy and perhaps smoothness clearly has an advantage. That's not to say a controller player will lose every time, but it certainly doesn't help him nor does it hurt the SmartJoy user.

I think part of this thread was to determine if the SmartJoy is something to use in competitive play. So in answer to that I'm willing to accept that nothing can be done about the XBoxLive situation, it's just something people have to deal with. However in actual tournaments that you have at you college, local gamestore or wherever, you can actively and effectively police this sort of thing, and I for one would vote against allowing the SmartJoy. If you want mouse use, I'm positive we'll see Halo 2 on the PC, you can spin your track ball all you want then, and don't act like there haven't been PC games that console users have had to wait for.

 

[Lonestar]

I'm not doing too bad on Halo 2, and I'm using the controller. Not the nice fancy S one, but the Launch "House" model. BOO

 

[JayFro]

Well, if there's going to be a debate/arguement I might as well toss in my two cents.

Firstly, the 'technical advantage' this offers over a controller is two fold. Firstly a mouse is simply more accurate than a controller. The evidence of this is found in Halo 2 itself, the aim assist feature that is present here and in Halo are there for the reason that with a controller you kind of need it. It's this aim assist that gives the SmartJoy it's second advantage. Have you ever played a game, let's say Half-Life or Counter-Strike. Do the multiplayer servers have aim assist enabled? Not many serious servers would, since most would feel it takes the emphasis off of your own skill with regard to aiming, after all, you are using a mouse. With this in mind you might liken using the SmartJoy in Halo 2 to going to a Counter-Strike server that doesn't allow Aim Assist but one guy by whatever techno magic you prefer to imagine has it anyway. I'm relatively sure you'd take issue if you ran into someone like that.

Ok, with that aside we'll adress some other statements.

Saying that this is like having a wheel for driving games isn't a very good analogy. First off, I personally prefer a controller to a wheel. Secondly driving games don't to my knowledge have some sort of steer-assist feature that a wheel would take sort of a double advantage with. Thirdly, driving games you could argue were INTENDED to be used with a wheel, after all you don't go into an arcade and find a bunch of dual shocks sticking out of the machines.

The fact that there is a turn limit in Halo 2, just as there was in the first doesn't somehow mean all other points are invalid. Sure, a guy may still have that increased advantage coming up from behind but in a face to face encounter, the aim assist and the mouses' natural advantage with accuracy and perhaps smoothness clearly has an advantage. That's not to say a controller player will lose every time, but it certainly doesn't help him nor does it hurt the SmartJoy user.

I think part of this thread was to determine if the SmartJoy is something to use in competitive play. So in answer to that I'm willing to accept that nothing can be done about the XBoxLive situation, it's just something people have to deal with. However in actual tournaments that you have at you college, local gamestore or wherever, you can actively and effectively police this sort of thing, and I for one would vote against allowing the SmartJoy. If you want mouse use, I'm positive we'll see Halo 2 on the PC, you can spin your track ball all you want then, and don't act like there haven't been PC games that console users have had to wait for.

Nice post.

 

[border]

A mouse is easier to use than an analog stick, not an inherently more accurate method (though there is really no evidence to prove this either way). There's nothing preventing people from mastering the game with analog set to 10. But why spend time doing that when you can skip over months or even years of training and conditioning by using the Smart Joy Frag?

 

[Parallax Scroll]

You're cheating if you play Halo 2 with a low ping.

 

[shpankey]

the people in here rationalizing this to themselves that they are not cheating when using this are rediculous. i mean, hey, whatever helps you sleep at night. rationalize all you want, but you have an advantage and are using a device Bungie did NOT intend to be used with Halo 2. you are cheating. but by all means, keep lying to yourself it it helps you think better of yourself.

it's one thing to use it in single player and cheat yourself. nobody cares. but if you play online against other unsuspecting people who do not have the device and do not know or agree to play you when using the device, you are cheating and its unethical. i personally do not wish to play anyone using the device. i want to play people playing the same way i am.

if you organize a group of other users who either use the device or agree to play with you when using it, then you are being ethical about it, but as i suspect, none of the people who use this device against unsuspecting players even want people to know their using it. they want an advantage that others don't have in order to help them win. if they had to play only with other smartfrag users, i bet they wouldn't even bother with it anymore.

 

[shpankey]

You're cheating if you play Halo 2 with a low ping.

that's called an advantage. it's not cheating. it is also an element (varying ping times) that is expected by all and by the people who made the game. but again, keep on rationalizing. :/

 

[Parallax Scroll]

Do you also think it's cheating if someone plays Halo 2 with headphones? How about if they get a bigger TV? Or use a third party gamepad? Or custom build their own gamepad?

 

[JayFro]

that's called an advantage. it's not cheating. it is also an element (varying ping times) that is expected by all and by the people who made the game. but again, keep on rationalizing. :/

I couldn't agree more, people are simply looking for a way to rationalize cheating. Neither Microsoft or Bungie have given the ok for this product to be used on Xbox Live.

Since MS is banning people for using modded boxes maybe they should run a scan and ban those using the smartjoy frag :lol

 

[The Faceless Master]

A mouse is easier to use than an analog stick, not an inherently more accurate method (though there is really no evidence to prove this either way). There's nothing preventing people from mastering the game with analog set to 10. But why spend time doing that when you can skip over months or even years of training and conditioning by using the Smart Joy Frag?

i play on 10, as do many people i know IRL and online... 10 isn't even that fast, i have settings higher in games like red faction 2...

 

[The Faceless Master]

Well, if there's going to be a debate/arguement I might as well toss in my two cents.

Firstly, the 'technical advantage' this offers over a controller is two fold. Firstly a mouse is simply more accurate than a controller. The evidence of this is found in Halo 2 itself, the aim assist feature that is present here and in Halo are there for the reason that with a controller you kind of need it. It's this aim assist that gives the SmartJoy it's second advantage. Have you ever played a game, let's say Half-Life or Counter-Strike. Do the multiplayer servers have aim assist enabled? Not many serious servers would, since most would feel it takes the emphasis off of your own skill with regard to aiming, after all, you are using a mouse. With this in mind you might liken using the SmartJoy in Halo 2 to going to a Counter-Strike server that doesn't allow Aim Assist but one guy by whatever techno magic you prefer to imagine has it anyway. I'm relatively sure you'd take issue if you ran into someone like that.

Ok, with that aside we'll adress some other statements.

Saying that this is like having a wheel for driving games isn't a very good analogy. First off, I personally prefer a controller to a wheel. Secondly driving games don't to my knowledge have some sort of steer-assist feature that a wheel would take sort of a double advantage with. Thirdly, driving games you could argue were INTENDED to be used with a wheel, after all you don't go into an arcade and find a bunch of dual shocks sticking out of the machines.

The fact that there is a turn limit in Halo 2, just as there was in the first doesn't somehow mean all other points are invalid. Sure, a guy may still have that increased advantage coming up from behind but in a face to face encounter, the aim assist and the mouses' natural advantage with accuracy and perhaps smoothness clearly has an advantage. That's not to say a controller player will lose every time, but it certainly doesn't help him nor does it hurt the SmartJoy user.

I think part of this thread was to determine if the SmartJoy is something to use in competitive play. So in answer to that I'm willing to accept that nothing can be done about the XBoxLive situation, it's just something people have to deal with. However in actual tournaments that you have at you college, local gamestore or wherever, you can actively and effectively police this sort of thing, and I for one would vote against allowing the SmartJoy. If you want mouse use, I'm positive we'll see Halo 2 on the PC, you can spin your track ball all you want then, and don't act like there haven't been PC games that console users have had to wait for.

nice post for nothing... everyone already knows that under normal circumstances a mouse is better, but we're talking about the smartjoy here... do people even read the thread before replying?

you talk about the mouse's natural advantage, but what advantage does it have when it's inputs are mapped to an analog stick input, via a smartjoy?

you can't do *anything* faster via the smartjoy, other than lose $30 plus shipping from your pocket...

 

[Mike Works]

you can't do *anything* faster via the smartjoy, other than lose $30 plus shipping from your pocket...

The keyboard alone would allow you to reload faster (while you can look) and enable you to hit and/or zoom without losing the ability to aim.

As for the mouse issue, even if it is using the same amount of sensitivity points that the controller does, it is still much easier, or accurate, to move around your cursor using a mouse than it is an analog stick.

 

[shpankey]

Do you also think it's cheating if someone plays Halo 2 with headphones? How about if they get a bigger TV? Or use a third party gamepad? Or custom build their own gamepad?

having headphones or a big television is just having an understood advantage. it's not cheating. having a bigger tv is nothing nobody out there you're playing would not expect. in fact, everyone knows that tv's and stereo's vary. everyone expects there to be different stereo systems and different tv's. again, stop trying to mix having an advantage with cheating. they are not the same. one is expected by EVERYONE, including the people you play and the people who made the game. the other is not.

a third party gamepad would be ok as long as it doesn't give you some kind of unfair ability that nobody else has or is aware of or was intended by the developers.

it never ceases to amaze me how cheaters try to rationalize their actions. it's almost verbatim how thiefs sit around rationalizing stealing music and games by arguing about RIAA and blah blah blah blah. i suppose it helps them feel they are still a good person and not the scum they are.

i know there are millions of people out there who would cheat in a heartbeat, given the chance. in fact, it's one of the big reasons i got so turned off of competitive multiplayer gaming. it wasn't until xbox live came along, where it legitimately curbed to a great extent most of the cheating that i got back into competitive online gaming. sure there is some glitches in a few games here and there, but not the widespread cheating with programs like "aim bots" and the like which are near undetectable. this is why i hope bungie can somehow detect it and stop it's use on XBL. Bungie has always been really really big on stoping any kind of cheating in their online games... i know in Myth they were extremely active with Bungie.net and keeping cheaters out of their gaming service. in fact i've never seen a company so adament and active in preventing cheaters, they would even monitor live games and check stats from games on their service and act accordingly. so i'm sure they're looking into stopping this thing.

anyhow, i'm ranting. you certainly don't need my approval to cheat, and i know nothing i say will even remotely prevent anyone from using this cheat device on xbox live.

 

[LukeSmith]

I promise the Smartjoy won't be legal at CPL, or IGames or MLG or any of the gaming competitions.
End of discussion.

 

[Parallax Scroll]

I have no intention of using the Smartjoy, as I'm perfectly happy with my big-ass original Xbox controller. But using one is not cheating.

The keyboard alone would allow you to reload faster (while you can look) and enable you to hit and/or zoom without losing the ability to aim.

Changing the in-game control settings can also help with this to some extent, as can finding a creative way to hold the controller. Likewise, someone could theoretically use a Dualshock 2 via adapter or a third-party controller with multiple shoulder buttons (do those exist?) and gain punch/reload buttons that don't involve the thumbs. A person can also custom-build a controller with whatever damn button layout they please.

People use custom-built fighter sticks all the time both online and in tournaments. How is using a mouse/kb in Halo 2 any different?

 

[border]

The keyboard alone would allow you to reload faster (while you can look) and enable you to hit and/or zoom without losing the ability to aim.

So will the "FPS Master" control pad (all face buttons place on underside of control pad)

OMG_CHEATERS!

one is expected by EVERYONE, including the people you play and the people who made the game

The very existence of the device means that people will now expect that other people will use it. Try again. Defining "cheating" based on other users' or developers' "expectations" is a bit retarded.

Smart Joy Frag is not some top secret weapon, but now just another control option for players. It's a more accessible and comfortable control method but it does not break the rules of the game the way a hack or AimBot or Action Replay code might. Those are true "cheats" because they allow people to defy preprogrammed rules of the game. SJF works completely within the developer-defined framework....it's ridiculous to put it in the same class as something that does all the aiming/firing for you, grants infinite health, etc, etc.

 

[miyuru]

I'm not going to call it cheating (using the SmartJoy), as that's really subjective, and I don't think anyone has publicly defined cheating yet.

But to make this short, I think everyone should play with a pad, or everyone should play with a SmartJoy, so things are completely fair.

 

[border]

Well at this point I think anyone offering up a definition of cheating is going to slant it depending on their opinion of this device. In the context of a game, I would say that it is simply the act of breaking agreed-upon rules. Stealing from the bank in Monopoly, re-arranging the chess pieces while your opponent is in the bathroom, pulling an ace out of your sleeve in poker, etc. To say that it's simply doing something that the game's maker/player doesn't expect seems way too broad.

All the dictionary definitions involve trickery, deception, swindling, fraud, "acting dishonestly", or rule-breaking.

 

[IJoel]

Well, it's not really cheating, but if you think you are using it don't believe for a second that you don't gain a significant advantage by using it. Again, it's not cheating, but the advantage is clearly there.

 

[miyuru]

Yeah, true true. When you put it like that, it's not *cheating*.

But don't deny the fact that you're gaining an advantage. If you didn't, why would you bother?

Don't reply saying you're more comfortable with a keyboard/mouse, because then that does become an advantage when others are using pads. Not saying pads are better, but the moment you stop using one in favour for a SmartJoy, you're not on the same level playing field.

 

[Parallax Scroll]

Don't reply saying you're more comfortable with a keyboard/mouse, because then that does become an advantage when others are using pads. Not saying pads are better, but the moment you stop using one in favour for a SmartJoy, you're not on the same level playing field.

Sure, but we're not on a level playing field if I have a sharper TV or a lower ping either.

 

[border]

The level playing field was never there in the first place. It disappeared the moment someone bought an HDTV or large screen....when they got a headset.....when they installed a 5.1 sound system.....when they got an arcade stick or driving wheel or DDR dance pad. There are always gaming accessories that give an edge.

Don't reply saying you're more comfortable with a keyboard/mouse, because then that does become an advantage when others are using pads.

So if I think a gamepad is "more comfortable", does that become an advantage? It will always be advantageous for a player to use whatever control scheme they are most competent with.

 

[The Faceless Master]

The keyboard alone would allow you to reload faster (while you can look) and enable you to hit and/or zoom without losing the ability to aim.

As for the mouse issue, even if it is using the same amount of sensitivity points that the controller does, it is still much easier, or accurate, to move around your cursor using a mouse than it is an analog stick.

reload faster? look? zoom? hit? aim?

let me describe how i play Halo1/2 on the duke

movement: southpaw
buttons: southpaw

right middle finger on R
right index finger hovering above A/B/X/Y

and no, i'm right handed...

and as for it being easier and more accurate to move the mouse around than the analog stick, that's up for debate...

 

[miyuru]

Ah, I see your guys' point, you guys are right.

But you guys do understand what I'm trying to say as well, right? As long as we can all admit everything that's obvious, I'm happy.

In the end, someone who would be to buy a SmartJoy would probably be gaining the largest advantage possible, considering s/he would buy it. Eh who am I kidding, he . I just hope they admit they're using it, or I feel sorta cheated if I were to play against them, sorta like if I'm playing 1 on 1 CS, but my buddy doesn't tell me he's using headphones.

and as for it being easier and more accurate to move the mouse around than the analog stick, that's up for debate...

That's totally subjective, so I'd rather not debate it to death. Just most people, like all of us, probably use mice on our PCs everyday for hours. You can use your whole had for the mouse as well.

This is compared to a smaller stick, on which you only use your thumb, so in the end it's harder to be more precise with it. On the other hand, after maybe millions of years of training, you could be as precise with it as with a mouse, and probably be faster.

IMO the reality is a mouse is easier to use, since it is not as sensitive in the sense that you can physically move it further while moving your reticule on-screen a shorter distance, thus your precision is higher relative to using an analog stick, on top of the fact that we probably use mice more than pads, all contributing to my argument that mice are easier to use in general.

 

[Mike Works]

So will the "FPS Master" control pad (all face buttons place on underside of control pad)

OMG_CHEATERS!

I never, ever said anyone using it was "cheating".

The level playing field was never there in the first place. It disappeared the moment someone bought an HDTV or large screen....when they got a headset.....when they installed a 5.1 sound system.....when they got an arcade stick or driving wheel or DDR dance pad.

A TV is a neccessity in order to play Halo 2 (and while obviously a 41 inch screen will give you an advantage over those with a 13 inch screen, they're still both screens, and don't feature the inherent contrasts that an XBox controller and a keyboard/mouse setup do). A headset comes with XBox Live. A 5.1 sound system may give you 1 extra kill every 15 times you play the game, I don't see how that would give you a distinct advantage.

reload faster? look? zoom? hit? aim?

let me describe how i play Halo1/2 on the duke

movement: southpaw
buttons: southpaw

right middle finger on R
right index finger hovering above A/B/X/Y

and no, i'm right handed...

and as for it being easier and more accurate to move the mouse around than the analog stick, that's up for debate...

No matter what sort of contorted scheme you have your buttons and fingers laid out, I'll bet you 9 times out of 10 someone could type [ W D F S R A Q ] faster than you could press [ A Y R R-2 B X L ]. As for it being easier and more accurate to move a mouse around than an analog stick, how many people use an analog stick/controller for first person shooters on the PC?

 

[Teddman]

As for it being easier and more accurate to move a mouse around than an analog stick, how many people use an analog stick/controller for first person shooters on the PC?

Oooh... I think he bus' yo chops on that one!

 

[shpankey]

you can keep on spitting out the bullshit, rastionalizing border, but you are cheating and you're certainly not welcome in a game i'm in... and i dare say i doubt you announce your advantage to everyone your playing with in a XBL match, less they ask you to leave, but instead secretly keep your advantage to yourself, in your mind having won your own argument with your better self and explaining it off as the same as having a bigger tv :lol

not that i care that much about winning, but instead don't care to play with that kind of person.

i think the comfort argument is pretty bollocks also, are you to tell me as a gamer you can't play a game with a controller all a sudden? if you're going to play competitively, online, play like the rest of everyone out there having the same limitation.

lets put it this way, i would definately KICK MY OWN ASS in Halo 2, severley, using a kb/m setup over the controller.

 

[The Faceless Master]

No matter what sort of contorted scheme you have your buttons and fingers laid out, I'll bet you 9 times out of 10 someone could type [ W D F S R A Q ] faster than you could press [ A Y R R-2 B X L ]. As for it being easier and more accurate to move a mouse around than an analog stick, how many people use an analog stick/controller for first person shooters on the PC?

earlier that day...

with a real kb/mouse fps input, there would be no contest, but with the smartjoy, it's still limited by game imposed restrictions on analog movement, so there's no real physical advantage...

it's just a sense of the player feeling more comfortable using the control style they like (KB/M) over something they don't like as much or don't feel as comfortable with...

 

[Vibri]

Anyone who uses a third-party, non-approved device to boost their control ability beyond what the developers intended in an Xbox Live competitive environment is cheating.

And what's more, simply winning by cheating in Halo 2 is more important to you than enjoying a level field as the developer intended with everyone else?

It's just a game. If that's your persective, you need to get the fuck out more.

 

[Mike Works]

earlier that day...

Though I will mention that my keyboard/button advantage still stands, I understand your point in that the mouse doesn't suddenly give you access to more sensitivity points or whatever you call them, I understand that the device simply gives you the same amount of restricted moving points/axis' that the analog stick gets.

That being said, I'm fairly certain the majority of people find it easier to move a cursor using a mouse from point A to B to C than an analog stick. Moving from one direction to the polar opposite using a mouse is as simple as just moving your arm/wrist in the other direction. With an analog stick, you have to move your thumb to the other side or let it snap back into place.

And once again, I prose the question regarding PC players using controllers with 2 analog sticks.

 

[Ryu]

All I know is that if I own a nVidia 6800pro, I'm not going to pull it out because I'm playing against people who are using GeForce 4 4600ti's. Likewise, I'm not going to complain against someone who fights me over xbl in a fighting game who uses a stick while I use a pad. Why should anyone using this new keyboard\mouse adapter be treated any different? Tiny differences between players exist all the time. Should a guy dumb down his own skill just because they've played 6000 hours of Halo 2 while opponents have only played it 6 hours? Get over this "cheating" nonsense.

 

[Vibri]

Christ, this argument would only still be going in the semantically insane fanboy universe of GAF.

The number of analogue points in the Xbox controller is irrelevant. The human joint and nervous system however, is. You absolutely cannot draw an analogy with having a better sound system or whatever other crap has been rolled out here.

Here's an absolute biological fact, and this is why it's cheating: a wrist/hand controlled scheme is larger scale and hence more flexible and accurate for humans, than one controlled by a thumb stick with millimetre wide micro-movements.

Halo 2 on consoles was designed to be played with one, and not the other. End of story.

 

[shpankey]

All I know is that if I own a nVidia 6800pro, I'm not going to pull it out because I'm playing against people who are using GeForce 4 4600ti's.

Good gosh what a rediculous comparison.

 

[The Faceless Master]

Though I will mention that my keyboard/button advantage still stands, I understand your point in that the mouse doesn't suddenly give you access to more sensitivity points or whatever you call them, I understand that the device simply gives you the same amount of restricted moving points/axis' that the analog stick gets.

That being said, I'm fairly certain the majority of people find it easier to move a cursor using a mouse from point A to B to C than an analog stick. Moving from one direction to the polar opposite using a mouse is as simple as just moving your arm/wrist in the other direction. With an analog stick, you have to move your thumb to the other side or let it snap back into place.

And once again, I prose the question regarding PC players using controllers with 2 analog sticks.

the button advantage thing doesn't even take into account that half the buttons you mentioned are comonly used for movement, which falls under analog stick territory...

a majority of people would find it easier to use whatever control method they are used to... which is most likely a mouse, that's called comfort... and you make moving your wrist/arm vs your thumb sound like sleeping in a soft bed vs running up the steps of the empire state building...

in my first post i said "with a real kb/mouse fps input, there would be no contest" and i'm really tired of quoting the whole thing now, so i'll just do that part by itself so it doesn't get overlooked... this isn't about playing on a PC using analog sticks... saying that would even be close in anything but the slowest of fps games would be rediculous...

 

[The Faceless Master]

Christ, this argument would only still be going in the semantically insane fanboy universe of GAF.

The number of analogue points in the Xbox controller is irrelevant. The human joint and nervous system however, is. You absolutely cannot draw an analogy with having a better sound system or whatever other crap has been rolled out here.

Here's an absolute biological fact, and this is why it's cheating: a wrist/hand controlled scheme is larger scale and hence more flexible and accurate for humans, than one controlled by a thumb stick with millimetre wide micro-movements.

Halo 2 on consoles was designed to be played with one, and not the other. End of story.

or maybe, having to move so far with your wrist/hand is slower than just doing some micro-movements with your thumb... OMG, PAD IS CHEATING :lol

 

[Ryu]

Good gosh what a rediculous fucking comparison.

I made more and you ignored them. You should explain why before you call anything "rediculous." Regardless, this crap has been happening in the PC world for years and years. Why should a console be ANY different? Advantage or not, it's not cheating -- plain and simple. A guy turning on invincibility for himself mid game while everyone else is normal -- that's cheating. The distinction shouldn't even have to be mentioned in this thread and it's unfortunate that it has to be.

 

[Vibri]

Are there seriously people here still trying to argue that a game controller is superior to a mouse/keyboard for FPSs?

Like, for real?

Step back. Think. Are you people fucking insane?

 

[shpankey]

who are you guys trying to convince more, us or yourselves? i can't figure that out. i mean, why are we even having this discussion, it's not like cheaters would ever stop cheating based off of any logic told to them. they're cheaters. i mean, it's obvious, all you're looking for in here is an "it's ok". you want to feel better about yourself and believe you're not a cheater.

the simple fact is, if you use this device, which was created to give a player a significant advantage over everone else, a device the developer did not intend (and I have NO doubt at all will try to ban from XBL -- you watch) for you to use in a competitive environment, you will be significantly better than you were without it. simply put, there will be many times when a player that would normaly have killed you, will now instead be killed, thereby changing the end result of what would have been, what SHOULD have been if you played with the same limitations as everyone else.

this whole argument about different tv's and sound systems is just smoke screen baloney and is rediculous.

so again i ask, why are we even here? you're going to keep on cheating, nothing we say will change that, and nothing we say is nothing you won't be able to spin doctor. you just want to see every argument and then think of a way to debate it and then reason it to yourself at the end of the day. then you can go to sleep at night thinking you won that game earlier (you know, the one you barely won by one point) legitimately and that it had nothing to do with your cheat device. the one you never mentioned to anyone because you knew they'da kicked your ass out on the curb for cheating if you had told them.

 

[Vibri]

Yeah, seriously. You might as be an athelete taking steroids, then trying to justify it with arguments such as WELL NOT EVERYONE'S BORN EQUAL SO IT'S NOT A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD ANYWAY, or WELL HIS SHORTS ARE NIKE BRANDED SHINY RED SO DON'T MATTER DAWG. Whatever.

 

[JayFro]

who are you guys trying to convince more, us or yourselves? i can't figure that out. i mean, why are we even having this discussion, it's not like cheaters would ever stop cheating based off of any logic told to them. they're cheaters. i mean, it's obvious, all you're looking for in here is an "it's ok". you want to feel better about yourself and believe you're not a cheater.

the simple fact is, if you use this device, which was created to give a player a significant advantage over everone else, a device the developer did not intend (and I have NO doubt at all will try to ban from XBL -- you watch) for you to use in a competitive environment, you will be significantly better than you were without it. simply put, there will be many times when a player that would normaly have killed you, will now instead be killed, thereby changing the end result of what would have been, what SHOULD have been if you played with the same limitations as everyone else.

this whole argument about different tv's and sound systems is just smoke screen baloney and is rediculous.

so again i ask, why are we even here? you're going to keep on cheating, nothing we say will change that, and nothing we say is nothing you won't be able to spin doctor. you just want to see every argument and then think of a way to debate it and then reason it to yourself at the end of the day. then you can go to sleep at night thinking you won that game earlier (you know, the one you barely won by one point) legitimately and that it had nothing to do with your cheat device. the one you never mentioned to anyone because you knew they'da kicked your ass out on the curb for cheating if you had told them.

It's just funny to me that people will go out and get an adapter to have an advantage in a game that was clearly designed for controllers not keyboards. Next time you tear it up in Halo 2 tell the whole room afterwards that you were playing with a keyboard and mouse. Let's see how they react to that one.

I just hope MS figures out a way to drop the ban stick on these guys, that would be funny.

The funniest part would be Bungie awarding the #1 online player some type of recognition and finding out the guy used a keyboard and mouse to get to the top. If it's ok to use this adapter for Xbox Live why won't official tournaments and such allow the device? Oh that's right, because it was never intended by MS or Bungie to be used for Halo 2.

 

[Parallax Scroll]

A few of us don't even begin to see eye to eye on this issue, but here's another thing to think about.

I remember a few years back when my left wrist was in a cast, I did most of my gaming on an emulator and came up with a creative keyboard layout that allowed me to play a variety of games with my one good hand. If my wrist was broken today and I did the same thing on Xbox Live, would you accuse me of cheating?

 

[Ryu]

this whole argument about different tv's and sound systems is just smoke screen baloney and is rediculous.

It's "ridiculous," first of all.

Second, advantages and disadvantages have been something gamers have had to cope with for years. That's what competition is all about. You don't like his device? Then kill his ass. Prove he can't win. Don't whine and bitch about it, get better yourself and win. I've been smoked by modem players in Counter-Strike. I've been sniped at a thousand yards by people with GF2's while I had my 9800 pro. There are clans dedicated to people with lesser hardware and these bastards fucking own. They don't go around whining their asses off everytime they feel cheated out of a kill. It's not like they are invincible and you know that. They're not seeing through walls before you come around the corner. They are not shooting you through those walls. They are not warping all over the damn map. They are not running around like goddamned maniacs at impossible speeds. That's what cheating is. That's what cheating is about. This whole peripheral difference crap is just weaksauce complaining.

Finally, as I said, I love Street Fighter. I think that game is great. I play it with a pad and although my inputs are far inferior to those who use an arcade stick in terms of speed, that doesn't mean I can't win. They are not invincible. Unless their name is Daigo.

who are you guys trying to convince more, us or yourselves?

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I'm stating what I know to be fact after playing PC games for years. Consoles were never meant to be some type of great equalizer, especially over something as unpredictable as the Internet. There will ALWAYS be differences. The only equalizer will be on a straight up LAN connection across the same exact TV's in the same room with the same controllers, same headsets and same sound setups. Until you have all of that, all of this complaining is just ground covered long before Halo was even concieved and the differences still exist today.

 

[JayFro]

Try this, let's have a race in real cars. Let's assume we have similar driving ability but you have a car that handles much better and has a better top speed. Tell me now.........who will win the race?

:lol :lol :lol

How many of you that are for this fragjoy thing are democrats? I'd love to know!

 

[border]

:lol

"Maybe if I cheat and rehash my last post and cheat say the word "cheat" in every cheating sentence it will help hide the cheating fact that my ridiculously dogmatic argument is poorly constructed and has nothing to do with commonly accepted definitions of the verb "to cheat". Cheat."

Creator's intention has nothing to do with cheating. Smart Joy Frag is an alternate control method that offers people a chance to play with a scheme they are more familiar with and more adept at. If you are better with a driving wheel/arcade stick than a control pad, apparently it's "cheating" to use the wheel/stick.

Everybody can use whatever control scheme they like best. You know who tried to force the same thing on everybody? That's right -- THE NAZIS! Don't be a NAZI! Down with Analog Hitler!

PS: Cheat cheat cheat cheat

If it's ok to use this adapter for Xbox Live why won't official tournaments and such allow the device?

There are no official tournaments. Gaming leagues exist independently of Bungie and Microsoft.

 

[Ryu]

Creator's intention has nothing to do with cheating. Smart Joy Frag is an alternate control method that offers people a chance to play with a scheme they are more familiar with and more adept at. If you are better with a driving wheel/arcade stick than a control pad, apparently it's "cheating" to use the wheel/stick.

Exactly the point I was making. Nicely done.

Everybody can use whatever control scheme they like best. You know who tried to force the same thing on everybody? That's right -- THE NAZIS! Don't be a NAZI! Down with Analog Hitler!

:lol :lol :lol It should be noted that Nazi's also had pieces of flair.

 

[gohepcat]

nice post for nothing... everyone already knows that under normal circumstances a mouse is better, but we're talking about the smartjoy here... do people even read the thread before replying?

you talk about the mouse's natural advantage, but what advantage does it have when it's inputs are mapped to an analog stick input, via a smartjoy?

you can't do *anything* faster via the smartjoy, other than lose $30 plus shipping from your pocket...

I'm really surprised that you can't understand how this works. It's not moving faster. It's the ability to stop on a dime without having to return to a zero position.

When you aim with a controller you have to push all the way to the outer most edge of stick, and then quickly return to the zero position. You have to judge in a split second when to start to release the stick and pull it back to center. With this device you do not have that issue.

Simply think of it this way. Open a bunch of windows in random positions on your desktop. Now quickly close them by clicking the x in the top right corner.... now imagine trying to do that with a game controller in the same amount of time.

 

[Mike Works]

I'm really surprised that you can't understand how this works. It's not moving faster. It's the ability to stop on a dime without having to return to a zero position.

When you aim with a controller you have to push all the way to the outer most edge of stick, and then quickly return to the zero position. You have to judge in a split second when to start to release the stick and pull it back to center. With this device you do not have that issue.

Simply think of it this way. Open a bunch of windows in random positions on your desktop. Now quickly close them by clicking the x in the top right corner.... now imagine trying to do that with a game controller in the same amount of time.

SILENCE! IT'S MERELY AN ALTERNATIVE CONTROL STYLE, AND YOUR ACCOUNT SHALL BE ABOLISHED FOR SMEARING RED CHEATER PAINT OVER THE GLORIOUS YET EVEN HANDED SMARTJOY FRAG