out0v0rder
Member
There was subliminal messages during the bubbleshow that triggered him
Ehh... but Tatooine is on the outskirts controlled by the Hutts. They probably didn't see a lot of Jedi, nor much of the clone wars at all. It makes sense that the people out there would be disassociated with them.
Yeah, the idea that Han Solo doesn't believe in the force makes no sense when you figure that less than 2 decades before ANH there was a galaxy spanning war where the Jedi were central figures in.
Star Wars as a whole makes so much more sense when you just ignore the prequels.
if mace would have had palpatine stand trial......this shit never would have happened as Anakin would have believed the Jedi were not corrupt and did things normally. That moment right there was the whole breaking point to him.
Han's furry life partner literally knew Yoda.
The problem is Lucas had the Jedi be FAR too buddy-buddy with the senate. They have their temple right next to them ffs. It would've worked if the Jedi were far more secretive and worked outside the jurisdiction of the republic. Would've also made the massive mistrust of them by the senate far more plausible.
Yeah, the idea that Han Solo doesn't believe in the force makes no sense when you figure that less than 2 decades before ANH there was a galaxy spanning war where the Jedi were central figures in.
Star Wars as a whole makes so much more sense when you just ignore the prequels.
Han not believing in the Jedi literally makes no sense when you take the prequels into account.
- The Jedi were buddy buddy with the government less than 20 years prior (and Han was alive then)
- In the speach where Palpatine formally makes The Empire he straight up says the Jedi attacked him
- Chewbacca literally knew Yoda
- Han is from one of the core worlds in the galaxy. Not some distant backwater planet where Jedi were less likely to be
Is there anymore to Han not believing the Jedi than some passing statement in ANH? I mean, could he have just been being coy about it?
This is the biggest failure of these bad movies. The only reason to have the prequels was to show the transition of Anakin to Darth Vader and they pretty much left that to the last half hour of the 3rd movie with a ridiculously abrupt switch from angsty teenager to child mass murderer. I also expected the transition from man to cyborg was a result of fight after fight with countless jedi as he hunted them down one by one but nope, one stupid move and a single slash of Obi Wan's lightsaber did the trick.
There's a lot to criticize the prequels about without making things up. Anakin's turn started in TPM. He was taken from his Mother, initially rejected for his training, and then the Jedi who was going to train him was killed. Not a good start. In AotC he starts having terrible dreams about his mother's fate and falls into romatic love with a woman when that's forbidden by his Jedi code. He finds his mother who dies in his arms and taps into his anger as a result. In RotS he once again has nightmares about a loved one and it's near impossible for him to talk to anyone about it. The galaxy is falling apart and one of his most trusted mentors is actually a Sith Lord. The setup is all there for a believable fall. The execution of course leaves a lot to be desired.
The Jedi Council served as the military advisors to Palpatine, and the generals of the Army of the Republic.The galaxy is a huge place and there were something like 10,000 Jedi. There's a good chance most people never met one. Add decades of propaganda and information suppression and it's pretty believable.
Yeah, I was going to point this out. I assumed that's when he went from not being 100% with the Jedi code (secretly loving Padme, fearing for his mom, etc) to actually murdering.He killed a shitload of tuskan raiders just out of revenge.
He's probably always been kind of evil.
Han not believing in the Jedi literally makes no sense when you take the prequels into account.
- The Jedi were buddy buddy with the government less than 20 years prior (and Han was alive then)
- In the speach where Palpatine formally makes The Empire he straight up says the Jedi attacked him
- Chewbacca literally knew Yoda
- Han is from one of the core worlds in the galaxy. Not some distant backwater planet where Jedi were less likely to be
Basically, we're both kind of wondering at what point does Anakin actually become evil?
His character through II and III, as well as Clone Wars seem to be about doing what he thinks is the right thing. Maybe breaking/bending some rules, but for a greater good kind of thing. Usually in an effort to save lives.
His character through II and III, as well as Clone Wars seem to be about doing what he thinks is the right thing. Maybe breaking/bending some rules, but for a greater good kind of thing. Usually in an effort to save lives.
Now, obviously some shit went down with Padme, and Sheev tells Anakin that he killed her, and this fucks him up.
So what exactly happens here? Does he figure, "Oh, guess Palpatine was actually Evil, but he's all I've got, so I'll be evil to?"
By the time he shows up in Rebels, he's very willing to burn an entire shanty town to the ground in an effort to get the Rebels to react to it. He obviously knows at this point that he's not fighting the good fight. He's using ruthless evil tactics to win a small conflict. He shows no mercy, even deflecting a laser shot straight back at one of the main characters faces (Super dissapointed she just shrugged this off, btw).
Padme's death when he is informed of it is basically when he gives up at least according to the Novel.
He realizes he got played like a fool and everything he ever cared about is gone and all he has left is wrinkly ass Palpatine. He tries to kill Palpatine with the force but due to his injuries is basically a shell of his former self so just submits to the life left before him.
Its pretty obvious though Anakin has been fucked in the head long before that
"from my point of view, the Jedi are evil."
Can't believe he said that with a straight face after slaughtering children.
Up to the point when he decided it was time to kill all the children, his troubled childhood resulted in some angstiness, trouble following authority. He had one moment prior that hinted to his rage, which was the revenge killing for his mother. However, killing those responsible for his mother's death isn't in the same league as massacring a school full of innocent children.
He has problems with the Jedi acting all shady against the Supreme Power of the Republic, at the moment Palpatine was a beloved man in the galaxy.
Then after the reveal it was pretty much "Them or Her" he made his choice, in his mind killing the corrupt Jedi who threw away their beliefs was the right thing to do, and to top that off he would save Padme? bitching.
If we factor in The Clone Wars show, the Jedi were ULTRA shitty with Anakin's apprentice, and they also faked Obi-Wan's death just to win the war...they made him go through hell twice. He was not having a third time.
Yeah, I think watching the Clone Wars CGI series made the transition of Anakin to Darth Vader more believable and subtle.
As the series goes on he gets more ruthless in dealing with the separatists. He is given more and more reason to distrust the Jedi Council. You see him getting more connected with Padme, his apprentice, and Obi-Wan. You see him using dark-force powers at times when he gets enraged.
The movies alone didn't do a very convincing job of showing/explaining how he turned. The show actually did a pretty great job over the... 6? 7? seasons.
Yup. It didn't help that Anakin needed Palpatine as well. Anakin was willing to turn him over but also wanted Palpatine alive for his alleged knowledge of bringing people back to life.
Han has no idea what Chewbacca is saying. He makes it up as he goes along.
This is the biggest failure of these bad movies. The only reason to have the prequels was to show the transition of Anakin to Darth Vader and they pretty much left that to the last half hour of the 3rd movie with a ridiculously abrupt switch from angsty teenager to child mass murderer. I also expected the transition from man to cyborg was a result of fight after fight with countless jedi as he hunted them down one by one but nope, one stupid move and a single slash of Obi Wan's lightsaber did the trick.
I always assumed that Palpatine ordered him to kill the children simply because they were force sensitive.
Which is still very stupid as they're young, they could still be indoctrinated into the Sith way of life.
Dat high ground, tho.
Due to the horrible writing and directing of Geroge Lucas, the only thing you can really say is THE MOMENT he choose to cut off Mace's arm is the moment the dark side took over in him and he turned pure evil. It was like a lightswitch, instant. No guradual change.
I see it like a light switch that for 2 1/2 movies was just trying to be pushed down wayyyyy to slowly, but the moment it crossed that needed pressure to go down, its an instant pop and its off.
The slaughter of the sand people. That was the point of no return really.
He's an idealist + egotist. He wants everything to go his way, the right way, and is willing to use his Jedi powers to make things go his way.
He expresses frustration at the Senate for all the political maneuvering that keeps them from getting things done. He'd rather see a strong leader with the proper ideals take control and make people fall in line than all the discord sown by people in the democracy game for their own personal gain.
And he's also afraid of loss thanks to his mommy issues, meaning he takes personal responsibility for everyone and everything around him, which is what drives him to become such a powerful Jedi and decorated warrior. You can see this from the moment he discovers Qui-Gon is a Jedi, since he apparently believes it's the job of a Jedi to fix absolutely everything, even slavery.
When the Jedi are revealed to be just as susceptible to shady backroom dealings as the Senate, and particularly when their advice to him in his time of [perceived] need is [perceived by him as] less than helpful, his loyalty to them dissolves. He then turns to the person who he believes is actually willing to help him: Palpatine.
It's at this moment, when he trust Palpatine completely, that Palpatine reveals that he's actually the Sith Lord the Jedi have been looking for. Anakin knows he should turn him in, but when desperation seizes him, he's willing to turn his back on his Jedi duty based on the splinter of hope Palpatine is offering him - he already doesn't trust the Jedi anyway and knows he'll be thrown out for revealing his relationship with his wife, and at least Palpatine is offering to help... right?
It's in that moment of weakness that he decides to kill Mace to rescue Palpatine, taking the step beyond the point of no return as far as his relationship with the Jedi is concerned. And with nothing more tethering him to the Jedi and their code, in this incredibly vulnerable and broken and desperate state, he's willing to be persuaded to do anything to cling to the one thing he has left - Padme - because he can't bear to lose the last person he believes is on his side.
Meanwhile, Palpatine is also promising him that they'll be able to rid the galaxy of corruption and finally restore peace. It's something he was already in favor of anyway, but now he gets to be the hammer that crushes all the things he felt were getting in the way of his ambition for a better universe - including the Jedi.
And then Obi-Wan, his best friend, turns on him - and, from his point of view, turns Padme against him. Now it's not just that the Jedi make him uncomfortable or are obstacles to his ambitions - his best friend has taken the only thing he cares about from him.
Anakin became evil because all his reasons for being good were stripped away from him, one by one, and he was given reasons (naturally, false machinations orchestrated by Palpatine) to hate everything he ever cared about.
Sadly, this was really poorly depicted in the films.
You'd think that once Anakin learns that Palpatine is Sidious, and that he is in league with the Separatists who have been trying to kill his wife for the last 10 years, he might not trust him. But nah, I'll just kill those kids because he told me to, even though he just said he can't actually save people from dying.
The turn simply doesn't work, the movie shows him being tricked into becoming Darth Vader rather than someone who believes in the Empire and thinks it will bring justice to the Galaxy.
On paper the ingredients were all there. He was a child slave on Tatooine, his mother was killed by savages in a system outside of the Republic, the JedI ended up being a repressive group of stupid dickheads rather than wise monks like Qui-Gon. All those things could have lead perfectly into the monster of the OT who is obsessed with bringing order to the Galaxy, order that would mean shitholes like Tatooine could not exist and sanctimonious douchebags like the Jedi would have no authority. Unfortunately George Lucas wrote 3 bad scripts that not only failed to properly characterise Anakin but also made the mistake of separating Darth Vader from Anakin.
Instead of being a noble Jedi who chose a dark path, he is a tragically stupid monster who is unable to see through the obvious lies of Palpatine. He was murdering children well before Palpatine told him to (see sand people in Episode 2) so the whole arc of the character is wrong. Anakin should only have become a monster after he wakes up in the suit and learns Padme has died because of him, blaming the Jedi for his family's death and resolving to exterminate them while bringing peace and justice to every system in the Galaxy by ensuring Palpatine rules with an iron fist.
Good question. It would've been interesting to explore an already adult Anakin, and follow his journey over three films detailing his disillusionment with the Jedi and eventual seduction to the dark side.
But nope, we got the prequels instead
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