So like how does Pro Wrestling work?
- Thread starter Krejlooc
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I still to this day can't believe they let Foley go BACK out during the Kane-Austin match. Like what the fuck was that about?
The Silver
Member
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
And those chair shots are real they just do them in a way that doesn't hurt as much.
Except when Stevie Richards hit JBL with a completely unprotected legit shot to the head, on purpose, as revenge for JBL shoot-beating the fuck out of another wrestler during a scripted brawl (for basically no reason).
Except when Stevie Richards hit JBL with a completely unprotected legit shot to the head, on purpose, as revenge for JBL shoot-beating the fuck out of another wrestler during a scripted brawl (for basically no reason).
petran79
Banned
It derived from the old competitive wrestling games which combined freestyle wrestling in a ring
But from a certain point it was turned into entertainment
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIGXM8N-aTI
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
Wrestling is a hard thing to describe, because it varies so much from place to place.
In essence, it's basically a scripted sport that plays out like a live stunt show, but HOW they do it varies from place to place. Japanese wrestling is theatrical, but still tries to stay grounded in the sport of it. It's actually pretty closely linked to the rise of MMA, and a certain level of credulity is expected there that is not expected anywhere else Mexican wrestling is very acrobatic and artificial, but has a number of tropes and traditions rooted in Mexican culture. European wrestling is classically sports-like, but has a tendency to embrace the goofier side of it all. American wrestling in the last 20 years has evolved more and more toward a soap opera style, though it's abandoned the soap opera highs and lows somewhat in recent years in favor of a more controlled, homogenized approach that has seen audiences slowly flake away in the last year or so, as the lack of the really good highs has prevented them from creating new money-making stars, and the traditional money-makers have made about as much as they every will, at this point. I'll describe a rather famous storyline involving a wrestler named CM Punk when I have time later that I think will give you a sense for why people like it so much.
In essence, it's basically a scripted sport that plays out like a live stunt show, but HOW they do it varies from place to place. Japanese wrestling is theatrical, but still tries to stay grounded in the sport of it. It's actually pretty closely linked to the rise of MMA, and a certain level of credulity is expected there that is not expected anywhere else Mexican wrestling is very acrobatic and artificial, but has a number of tropes and traditions rooted in Mexican culture. European wrestling is classically sports-like, but has a tendency to embrace the goofier side of it all. American wrestling in the last 20 years has evolved more and more toward a soap opera style, though it's abandoned the soap opera highs and lows somewhat in recent years in favor of a more controlled, homogenized approach that has seen audiences slowly flake away in the last year or so, as the lack of the really good highs has prevented them from creating new money-making stars, and the traditional money-makers have made about as much as they every will, at this point. I'll describe a rather famous storyline involving a wrestler named CM Punk when I have time later that I think will give you a sense for why people like it so much.
Talking of wrestling in other places Unreported World did a documentary about wrestling in The Congo, it featured the (genuine) sacrifice of a live chicken and wrestlers leading real criminal gangs.
It doesn't appear to be on youtube but here's the text summary (I think the episode is still on C4's website).
It doesn't appear to be on youtube but here's the text summary (I think the episode is still on C4's website).
The Albatross
Member
I'd encourage everybody not into Pro Wrestling to listen to the Radiolab on the Montreal Screwjob. You can google it. It's an awesome 60 minutes that introduces you to why professional wrestling is a thing and why it still has a solid hold on the public imagination in different cultures around the world. I've been an on-again, off-again wrestling observer for 25 years and my fiance, who has never watched or even thought about wrestling, listened to this on a car ride with me and she immediately got it and was even interested in looking up more info about the lives of the people involved in this story.
Radiolab, if you're not aware, is the award winning weekly radio program produced by WNYC and NPR that typically covers topics about science, culture, and history.
Radiolab, if you're not aware, is the award winning weekly radio program produced by WNYC and NPR that typically covers topics about science, culture, and history.
I've restarted watching WWE wrestling a year ago now, but while I still enjoy it to some extent, I just wish there were more interesting storylines. They're still below everything else on TV I'd say. It can't be that hard to shake things up a little bit? Maybe it's because they're deliberately doing everything slowly so nobody gets behind even if missing shows somewhat regularly. Even then, random turns out of nowhere, ever the same in-ring stories still hurt. I'm actually already happy if there is something like an in-ring story instead of a random finisher ending a random match. Why is the finisher so much more effective than the other moves anyway, lol.
Well, still enjoy it. There are still charismatic guys and/or good wrestlers like Lesnar, Rollins, Cesaro.
Well, still enjoy it. There are still charismatic guys and/or good wrestlers like Lesnar, Rollins, Cesaro.
ThankYouDaletech
Banned
I never read Mick Foley's books, but the guys on the WWF Attitude Era podcast said that Mick wrote that the announcer's table spot was planned, but he wasn't supposed to go through the top of the cell on that spot.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
He said that, but I don't believe him. Big Show insisted the Lesnar ring collapse was a shoot for like a decade.
Diprosalic
Banned
Wrestling is just a live soap opera about wrestling. WWE is just one production company that puts on a soap opera.
i think it's as easy as that.
i think it's as easy as that.
To understand why WWE TV and booking is the way it is, you have to understand the way WWE backstage culture works. There are a few rules to know.
1. Vince McMahon has the final say on everything.
2. Vince McMahon doesn't remember what happens on his own show past a couple weeks so in his mind, the audience doesn't remember either.
3. Vince McMahon likes guys who are tall bodybuilders. If you are not a tall muscular man or at least good looking, you will be bodyshamed on TV constantly.
4. Vince McMahon does not believe people want to see guys who are smaller compete in the ring even though UFC proves otherwise.
5. Vince McMahon thinks he knows what people want better than people know what they themselves want.
6. Vince McMahon believes no one star is bigger than the WWE brand. He started this narrative when guys like Hulk Hogan, Steve Austin, and especially The Rock became huge mainstream stars, then left the WWE.
7. You are only allowed to be as popular as WWE want you to be. If you do anything to get more popular than WWE thinks you should be, they will do everything they can to try to destroy that popularity.
8. Vince McMahon only really cares about what happens with this main star. Who happens to be John Cena currently.
9. The main star (John Cena) drives a ton of revenue through merchandise sales aimed at little kids.
10. Any time John Cena starts losing/isn't winning, merchandise sales for him go down. Therefore, it is in Vince's best interest that John Cena continues winning even if it hurts the product by not creating new stars.
Some love for this post. If there's anyone who hasn't seen this before, set apart 20 minutes for it, it's worth it.
TerminalDogma
Member
This topic was awesome. Just read all 10 pages and as someone whom has just started watching wrestling for the first time due to my roommate, this really answered a LOT of questions. Thanks OP!
Professor Beef
Banned
Carnies are carnies, but I'd be more willing to believe Foley (who has usually been very open about his experiences in the ring) than Big Show.
This has been super informative, I've learned a lot.
Since OP has stopped asking questions, can someone still explain the whole "It's me Austin" thing? I always thought it was funny especially combined with the announcer's "sonnuva bitch" remark, but what was the context there? Was Vince pretending to be some masked wrestler or something?
Since OP has stopped asking questions, can someone still explain the whole "It's me Austin" thing? I always thought it was funny especially combined with the announcer's "sonnuva bitch" remark, but what was the context there? Was Vince pretending to be some masked wrestler or something?
Are there any points of reference for any of these statements or is it just rumor and deduction from what we see through the show?
I'd be very interested if someone has out and out said these things about Vince on a podcast. I watched the Edge documentary and JR mentions that he was a VERY unliked person through portions of his career, however doesn't talk shit on Vince at all.
Professor Beef
Banned
For a few months, Undertaker was in charge of a stable of wrestlers that acted like a cult. Undertaker would occasionally drop hints about a "higher power" but never elaborated more than that. Then one night on Raw, after weeks of buildup, they revealed who it was...and it was Vince.
Bear in mind that Undertaker's guys had been tormenting the McMahon family for weeks, including his own daughter who was nearly crucified until Stone Cold saved her.
Some of those bolded lines are exaggerated, but all of them aren't far from the truth. Various former writers and wrestlers have chimed in and backed up those claims. I'd love to provide excerpts, but the amount of research is too much.
Point #2 I should probably change weeks to a couple months. Continuity does not matter in WWE's world because Vince can't remember it.
Point #6 is constantly parroted on WWE TV. WWE is the big corporate machine. If John Cena gets hurt tomorrow, they can create a new John Cena (but no, really can't)
Point #7 to be more specific, WWE wants their wrestlers to feel indebted to them. So if a wrestler got popular outside of the WWE, they try to bring them down because they want to be able to take credit for making someone popular. See: Every WCW star in WWE. Also see: Zack Ryder
LOL that's pretty meta. But wait, if Undertaker goons were messing with McMahon, and Stone Cold saved his daughter, then why was Vince trying so hard to make Austin's life a living hell? Was the stuff between McMahon and Undertaker a "work" and Vince and Austin had "heat" with each other? (look at these words I'm learning!)
Because the writers didn't originally know who the Higher Power was going to be, then they ran out of ideas and chose McMahon.
Huh, I guess that shouldn't be surprising. What wrestling matches would one watch to get that "arc"? Or would the added context make it less funny?
Becoming a wrestler tends to require a loose idea of sanity.
Vince is a dick , the reason those guys didn't dell deeper into is because they have close to the. Wwe. Go look up The Daniel Bryan story and you see what he talking about.
Etrian Oddity
Member
I heard a rumor way back in the day that Owen Hart was originally going to get The Game gimmick, but then he died and they gave it to HHH.
Is that really the truth, though? The Austin-McMahon rivalry was already up there as all-time great feuds in the company's history. It kinda makes sense to me that it was him all along.
The thing is that 90% of the great stuff in wwe was stuff that made up on the spot.
NorthernIX
Member
Yeah, as shown by this old behind the scenes video from Great American Bash 1988. Road Warriors, Lugar, Sting, Ronny Garvin and some Dusty I think. Absolute craziness. Hawk is one scary dude. Side note: Animal is taping a razor blade to his wrist at about 20:10 in the vid if anyone is interested in how they bladed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFeZiYf5BtM
Enosh
Member
man, this makes me want to start watching wrestling
something like this
what the heil did i miss
HeisenbergLannister
Member
The "best" part of the storyline was left out, seeing as how it was all a plan to get the WWF/E title off Austin, who wasn't even the champion when the storyline began.
Pretty much the Vince Russo era in a nutshell.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Something that surprised me as a longtime fan was finding out just how much is improvised on the spot. You'll see guys calling moves the first time they touch each other and then calling the moves the entire match. They just go through the motions while feeling out the crowd to figure out where to take the match next.
ThankYouDaletech
Banned
So what happened to McMahon?
I haven't been into wrestling since the Attitude Era, but wasn't McMahon pretty instrumental in the creative success of the AE? My understanding is that Russo just wrote the most insane shit all the time, and having that filter through McMahon was a major part of that era's success.
1. He got old.
2. Because of getting old, his worst habits get amplified because it gets harder for him to change his outlook.
funkystudent
Member
No direct competition for a decade.
The upswing with the attitude era was because wcw was kicking their butt in the ratings and stealing their top guys. They had to create new top guys (rock, austin) and be as exciting as possible week after week with a well rouded roster because wcw had one too.
Once the competition died so did the drive to try harder.
Professor Renegade
Banned
It's simple: Wrestling isn't wrestling
ThankYouDaletech
Banned
Makes sense!
What really sucks is Vince burying all the middleweight guys. They really made the best in ring product, and then to under utilize great wrestlers who had good characters like Jericho....I don't care how many burgers he buys for his co-workers, what a dumb dumb!
Sibersk Esto
Banned
Vince has always been above all else an "entertainment" guy. In his own words, pro wrestling is what his dad did. Whatever gets that pop that night gets priority. Building people up is too risky, takes too long.
Really? Even if you include WCW's previous incarnation Jim Crockett Promotions?
I never believed Foley because I couldn't think of any other way they were going to get down. Were they just going to fight up there and then decide to climb down or throw him through another announce table.
funkystudent
Member
Plus just look at how Taker chokeslams him on the roof. Foley basically just falls backwards onto the gimmicked panel. It looks super planned even if it isnt.
JesseEwiak
Member
JCP got bought by Turner in November of '88 and it died in March of '01 - That's twelve years and change of what could be considered the modern conception of WCW as a national promotion, even though you could maybe add a few years going back to 1985 or '86 for the 1st attempts at national expansion.
TNA started in June of '02 and it still alive today, barely. That's 13 years plus.
If I remember right, they had a few ideas that either fell through or got dismissed by Vince (It's been speculated The Jackyl (Don Callis), Ted DiBiase, or Jake Roberts were possible people).
Falling backwards onto the panel seems like the only safe way to take a bump on that part of the cage. The only other thing in that area is the crossbeam. I wouldn't put it past Foley to take a crossbeam across the back, but (assuming that the roof collapse wasn't worked,) that seemed safer overall.
ZombieSupaStar
Member
that and they are plastic zip ties all over the ring mat, i think the panel was gimmicked.
He was supposed to go through, however it was not meant to break like it did, it was supposed to slowly tear open and he would slip through to the mat as softly as the drop is possible. Instead the panel all came loose at once and he crashed down into the mat full speed (with the chair landing on his face for good measure).
The toss from the Cell went about as well it could have, separated shoulder and all, but the fall through the Cell went quite wrong.
Jericho has no one to blame but himself.
Yeah, the booking sucked. But he was God-awful when they gave him the ball in 2001. Only time he ever looked and acted like a full on main eventer was 2008, and by that point it was too little and too late for him to be 'THE GUY' long-term.
As for the rest...
Eddie was a fucking mess professionally and asked them to take the title from him/to never be world champ again. Benoit could barely cut a promo and was never going to be 'the guy' on Raw. Benjamin wasn't a good promo, Carlito was lazy, Morrison was a horrible promo.
Punk was felled by his 'I can be a star' attitude. Great wrestler and talker, but he never lived up to the hype he claimed/pissed people backstage off. Daniel Bryan would've been made for life if he'd got to Summerslam versus Lesnar in 2014, but his body broke down. And the others... Ambrose will get there within a year.
Pro wrestling works because it's always working. Even when you think wrestling is shooting you're actually getting worked into a shoot by a calculated work shoot. Even when you think you've spotted a worked shoot, you're still getting worked by perceiving the work shoot the way they want you to see the work.
Pro wrestling works because it's always working and its fans are always getting worked. It is the universal truth.
Pro wrestling works because it's always working and its fans are always getting worked. It is the universal truth.
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