Support NeoGAF

[EviLore]

Breaking pre-TUF news: Shouta claims in #ga that '70s Bruce Lee would take out Fedor in a bar room brawl.

(Honestly I just got done with this and related arguments in the IRC channel, but I guess I can't help myself).





TUF's coming up in a bit, though. Lay 'n Pray vs Ground 'n Pound, the ultimate showdown.

 

[Minotauro]

Fedor would DEMOLISH Bruce Lee. Seriously.

I'm excited for the show tonight too. The clips of Diego vs. Josh looked pretty exciting. Let's hope it is.

While I'm certainly not a fan of his, I really hope that Josh wins tonight. Someone needs to stop Diego. Sadly, I don't think KenFlo has it in him.

 

[karasu]

In real life anybody can beat anybody at any moment. :/

 

[Boogie]

Breaking pre-TUF news: Shouta claims in #ga that '70s Bruce Lee would take out Fedor in a bar room brawl.

(Honestly I just got done with this and related arguments in the IRC channel, but I guess I can't help myself).
.

Silly Shouta.

Care to share the gist of the argument?

 

[NLB2]

In real life anybody can beat anybody at any moment. :/

Yeah, except for anybody who's not a profesional fighter and under 160 pounds against a guy like Fedor. Lee would have zero chance. None whatsoever.

 

[EviLore]

Care to share the gist of the argument?

<EviLore> anyway, back to the original point, bruce lee didn't really prove himself in competition at all AFAIK. He claimed to have won a bunch of rooftop HK street fights (some with weapons), and he trained with some notable competitive martial artists, but he was a movie star, orin. And according to the sources I referenced there, his cardio and leg strength were flatly average.

(note: sourced http://www.myodynamics.com/articles/bruce.html )

<EviLore> so no, bruce lee from the '70s would DIE to fedor emelianenko from today, no question.

<Shouta> Bruce Lee probably wouldn't be any good in a 1v1 match against someone like Fedor but he'd probably way better on a battlefield, assuming he was everything people claim him to be heh

<EviLore> Shouta: you talking like Dynasty Warriors type shit now? haha

<Shouta> I really meant large conflicts between two factions involving hand to hand combat or feudal/medival combat
<Shouta> or even a Bar brawl
<Shouta> Takedowns, holds, and etc are much more effective in a 1v1 enviroment than striking and etc where as, (IMO), it's the opposite in non-1v1 enviroment

<EviLore> well, fedor has K-1 level standup and cardio in addition to his sambo throws, takedowns, and subs
<EviLore> so I'll put my money on him in a bar brawl ;b

<Shouta> I'd be wary if it was 2v1 heh
<Shouta> No matter how skilled and strong you are, you're still at a disadvantage with another body going at you heh

<EviLore> *shrug*, hard to say what anyone would do in a 2v1 environ

<Shouta> And that's often how fights turn out in a large setting

<EviLore> goes both ways really ;b

<Shouta> true
<Shouta> Anyway, that's the real difference between TMA and the prominent styles found in things like MMA
<Shouta> IMO of course
<Shouta> I think a fair number of people forget that heh

<EviLore> eh really I've just become sick of purported "effectiveness" and I'm really rather complacent to just watch the actual competitions. If someone thinks that some mountain hermit has a perfect style...that's fine, I'll nod my head and continue watching the people who are willing and able to prove themselves. As was touched upon though, it's more the person and his drive than the style, but having the right tools is *very* important.

<Shouta> I'm just sad to see so many folks write off a style because it's not "effective" in freestyle competitions despite the fact that some styles just haven't trained actual fighters for a long time

<EviLore> Shouta: well that's pretty much the hard truth to it though. What a TMA was in the past is just the past if it doesn't focus on the same things anymore

<Shouta> Well no, I'm talking about the people that assert that it was never effective heh

<EviLore> stuff like that's kinda hard to prove though

<Shouta> Whether or not a style can be effective now is a whole different issue really. I'm just against people that call it was always ineffective and etc

<EviLore> it's like saying that old-skool kenjutsu in the hands of a skilled practicioner could take out old-skool euro sword styles, armor differences aside. Even if there's some historic battle evidence, there's still stated vs real number differences, armor differences, morale differences, physical attribute differences, etc. etc. etc. Endless conditions. And today people don't fight to the death generally
<EviLore> I'm not going to discount anything though, it's just difficult to conclusively say anything when in that sort of realm. It's very easy to see the current stuff in practice now

 

[Asbel]

Yeah, except for anybody who's not a profesional fighter and under 160 pounds against a guy like Fedor. Lee would have zero chance. None whatsoever.

Well, in the real world, you have to consider the environmental variables like weapons, friends, Fedor getting run over by a bus. You know, all stuff that could increase the chances of a smaller fighter winning against an opponent that was highly skilled and much bigger than him.

Seriously though, I think Bruce Lee could have done really well in his weight class. He was around 145lbs right? Bruce Lee vs Takanori Gomi would be awesome.

 

[karasu]

Yeah, except for anybody who's not a profesional fighter and under 160 pounds against a guy like Fedor. Lee would have zero chance. None whatsoever.

No offense dude, but that's a really childish view of fighting. You think Fedor can beat every single man in russia everytime he fights someone who is not a "professional fighter" and who happens to be under 160 pounds? Just because he's someone you see fight successfully on television? Get real man. He's human, his body has the same basic weaknesses as everyone elses. Winning a fight isn't exactly an expression of superiority. It's just a matter of who does what first. Not who does what every time we meet in any venue under any conditions at any time for the history of forever.

If Fedor were fighting ANY man, and that man connected with a good shot ( a shot to the knee, a shot with a bottle, a chair, a brick, ANYTHING that happens in a fight) before Fedor did and hurt him, that's life. He's hurt, the term professional has nothing to do with it. "Professional" doesn't mean invincible, it means you get paid. Sure, he can more than likely hold his own, but if he gets popped, he gets popped. His professional record has nothing to do with it. People would have said the same thing about Mike Tyson back in the day, no way he could lose to a skinny chump like Royce Gracie(Pre UFC. before he was known stateside as a "Professional", but if Gracie caught Mike and choked him, or broke his arm, than wtf is mike suppossed to do about it? Argue that he's a professional and that what happened couldnt possibly happen? That's absurd.

If Fedor was fighting an unknown dude and the dude said 'whoa this fucker is big' and threw some crazy shit kick at Fedors knee joint and connected with serious damage, fedor is fucked. if Fedor knocks the hell out of that guy before he connects with anything, that guy is fucked. ANYTHING can happen in a fight, and what you see on TV has little to do with it. :/ Any fighter who thinks they're invincible because they win a tournament is a fucking fool. Fighters are taken out by unknowns all of the time in the same fights that they air on the television. :|

 

[EviLore]

It is true that anything can happen in a fight. It's also hypothetically possible that an untrained <160 pound human being could break a part of Fedor's body. Well, it *would* be possible if Fedor was in fact a human being, and not a killer cyborg from the future.

 

[Boogie]

It is true that anything can happen in a fight. It's also hypothetically possible that an untrained <160 pound human being could break a part of Fedor's body. Well, it *would* be possible if Fedor was in fact a human being, and not a killer cyborg from the future.

Yeah, Fedor's kinda a bad example to use for the vulnerability of any human, isn't he? :lol

 

[karasu]

<EviLore> anyway, back to the original point, bruce lee didn't really prove himself in competition at all AFAIK. He claimed to have won a bunch of rooftop HK street fights (some with weapons), and he trained with some notable competitive martial artists, but he was a movie star, orin. And according to the sources I referenced there, his cardio and leg strength were flatly average.

(note: sourced http://www.myodynamics.com/articles/bruce.html )

<EviLore> so no, bruce lee from the '70s would DIE to fedor emelianenko f
<Shouta> I think a fair number of people forget that hehhistoric battle evidence, there's still stated vs real number differences, armor differences, morale differences, physical attribute differences, etc. etc. etc. Endless conditions. And today people don't fight to the death generally

Just two things. I'm no uber Bruce lee fan but he did a lot for the Martial Arts in both theory and practice. But, it's common for Martial artist to train with light weights, especially as far as lower body excercises are concerned because the thoughtw a sthat you didn't want to bulk up and lose speed. What he squatted in NO WAY measures his kicking strength as that's determined more by technique, momentum, and the target.

The article goes on to admit that he was INSANELY strong for his weight, something everyone who knows him attests too. But then it says he never proved himself in atournament, so he's pretty much worthless. But really, how many MA'ist "prove" themselves in tournaments? :/ Even someone like Fedor, I;m pretty sure he could still "whip ass" before he fought in an international tournament that allowed us to see him in action. The tournament didn't make him good, the gym did.

 

[EviLore]

But really, how many MA'ist "prove" themselves in tournaments? :/

Competition is the easiest and best way to gauge ability in martial arts, no? We can speculate on bruce's abilities by hearing comments from other fighters and watching footage of him in demonstrations and movies, knowing how much he could lift or how fast and how long he could run, or even by reading his statements on JKD philosophy or any of that. But *none* of that would be as conclusive as having him fight Takanori Gomi just once.

 

[NLB2]

No offense dude, but that's a really childish view of fighting. You think Fedor can beat every single man in russia everytime he fights someone who is not a "professional fighter" and who happens to be under 160 pounds? Just because he's someone you see fight successfully on television? Get real man. He's human, his body has the same basic weaknesses as everyone elses. Winning a fight isn't exactly an expression of superiority. It's just a matter of who does what first. Not who does what every time we meet in any venue under any conditions at any time for the history of forever.

If Fedor were fighting ANY man, and that man connected with a good shot ( a shot to the knee, a shot with a bottle, a chair, a brick, ANYTHING that happens in a fight) before Fedor did and hurt him, that's life. He's hurt, the term professional has nothing to do with it. "Professional" doesn't mean invincible, it means you get paid. Sure, he can more than likely hold his own, but if he gets popped, he gets popped. His professional record has nothing to do with it. People would have said the same thing about Mike Tyson back in the day, no way he could lose to a skinny chump like Royce Gracie(Pre UFC. before he was known stateside as a "Professional", but if Gracie caught Mike and choked him, or broke his arm, than wtf is mike suppossed to do about it? Argue that he's a professional and that what happened couldnt possibly happen? That's absurd.

If Fedor was fighting an unknown dude and the dude said 'whoa this fucker is big' and threw some crazy shit kick at Fedors knee joint and connected with serious damage, fedor is fucked. if Fedor knocks the hell out of that guy before he connects with anything, that guy is fucked. ANYTHING can happen in a fight, and what you see on TV has little to do with it. :/ Any fighter who thinks they're invincible because they win a tournament is a fucking fool. Fighters are taken out by unknowns all of the time in the same fights that they air on the television. :|

If were using weapons, what's the point of the discussion? Anybody with a gun would beat Fedor.
Fedor's not going to get knocked out by anybody under 160 - his fight with Fujita proved that. Fedor's not going to get subbed by anybody - his fights with Nog proved that. Fedor's faced plenty of leg kicks from K1 caliber fighters, haven't seen his knee get fucked up yet.

I'm not saying Fedor's invincible (had they fought on the street rather than a ring, Fedor most likely would have been seriously injured by Randleman's slam). However, aside from an armed opponent or an opponent taking Fedor by suprise (in which case there's no reason to have a debate such as Fedor vs. Lee) Fedor has no weakness exploitable by any but the highest level of fighters (who happen to fight proffesionally).

 

[karasu]

Competition is the easiest and best way to gauge ability in martial arts, no? We can speculate on bruce's abilities by hearing comments from other fighters and watching footage of him in demonstrations and movies, knowing how much he could lift or how fast and how long he could run, or even by reading his statements on JKD philosophy or any of that. But *none* of that would be as conclusive as having him fight Takanori Gomi just once.

heh, that wouldn't prove anything to me other than that he either beat or loss to Takanori Gomi once. I'm not really one to say he can beat this person, or he can beat that person, but to write off someone who obviously trained hard and lived the martial arts just because there were no MMA tournaments in America at the time he lived, or because he didn't compete for whatever reason people don't compete is majorly annoying to me. Tournaments are A form of fighting, not the only form of fighting. I mean Bruce's strategies are around for everyone to read, nothing he REALLY believed about fighting has anything to do with competition. His strategies were more often about violence and complete freedom to express that violence in every form and with any instrument availabe. That's not to say "ohhhh he's so tough he KILLED PEOPLE!!!", but to say entering competitions didn't have shit to do with his beliefs. Apparently he only fought out of anger. In a nutshell, it's like expecting Krav Maga practitioners to start signing up at jiu jitsu tournaments just to "prove themselves' to the viewing masses. WTF?

 

[NLB2]

OK, Bruce Lee lost to Judo Gene, that is, as far as I know, his only confirmed fight. He would get mauled by Fedor.

 

[karasu]

If were using weapons, what's the point of the discussion? Anybody with a gun would beat Fedor.
Fedor's not going to get knocked out by anybody under 160 - his fight with Fujita proved that. Fedor's not going to get subbed by anybody - his fights with Nog proved that. Fedor's faced plenty of leg kicks from K1 caliber fighters, haven't seen his knee get fucked up yet.

I'm not saying Fedor's invincible (had they fought on the street rather than a ring, Fedor most likely would have been seriously injured by Randleman's slam). However, aside from an armed opponent or an opponent taking Fedor by suprise (in which case there's no reason to have a debate such as Fedor vs. Lee) Fedor has no weakness exploitable by any but the highest level of fighters (who happen to fight proffesionally).

Ack! K1 fighters don't attack joints, they attack muscles. Any thing else you said was said because you're obviously a humongous fan and most of it will be proven wrong whenever Fedor loses a fight.

Plus, the idea of weapons was brought up because we were talking about fighting, bar fighting even. To think that weapons and fighting are two different things is a mistake. Fighting is hurting people any way you can. There are no rules and it isn't co operative, so the possibilty of weapons is FArrrrrrrrrrrr more realistic than the idea of a hand to hand stand off of any sort. If you'r egoing to fight, you're going to fight everything your opponent throws at you, baseball bats included. It's not a kung fu movie. :/

 

[karasu]

OK, Bruce Lee lost to Judo Gene, that is, as far as I know, his only confirmed fight. He would get mauled by Fedor.

WTF? Marco Barrera beat Erik Morales twice but loss to Manny Pacquiao. But that didn't stop Erik Morales from beating Manny Pacquiao. :/

 

[NLB2]

WTF? Marco Barrera beat Erik Morales twice but loss to Manny Pacquiao. But that didn't stop Erik Morales from beating Manny Pacquiao. :/

I'm just saying Lee had no ground skills.

And I guess I could beat Fedor if weapons were allowed. Us Americans love our guns. And strikes to joints are used and allowed in Pride.

 

[karasu]

P.S. Gene Lebell and Bruce lee never fought. They were buddies and they trained together.

 

[NLB2]

Bob Wall, a former world professional karate champion and friend of LeBell's used to bring martial arts stars Chuck Norris and Bruce Lee to train in karate and judo with LeBell. Wall and Norris were co-owners of a karate school. "The first time Lee sparred with Gene, Gene picked him up and held him overhead," says Wall. "Bruce said, 'When you put me down, I'm going to get you,' so Gene just kept him up there a while. Gene is absolutely the toughest man alive."

http://www.genelebell.com/stories.asp

 

[karasu]

Gene actually said "I can't put you down because when I do you're gonna kill me". he talks about it all of the time, and hates the rumor that he beat up bruce lee , because they were pals. It's just a rumor, just like the one that says Bruce Lee beat up Bolo on the set of Enter the Dragon. Actually:

"When I got to the set Benny pointed Bruce out and told me to go put him in a headlock or something… Well, I’m a good employee and I always listen to the boss, so I went over to grab Bruce and he starts making all those crazy noises he became famous for. As a joke, I picked him up and put him on my shoulder in a fireman's carry kind of thing, then I ran down the length of the set and back again. Bruce says "put me down or I'll kill you". So I run down the set again and he says, "put me down" and I say "I can't put you down or you'll kill me". After that I sat down and talked to my boss and the other crew members for a couple minutes with him up on my shoulder. He finally crawled off, we all had a good laugh, and we went and shot our scenes.

http://www.genelebell.com/stories.asp#10brucelee

Furthermore

"Bruce loved to learn grappling, he ate it up! He said that people would never go for it in movies or TV because the fights are over too fast and most of the good stuff was hidden from view. He said they wanted to see fancy kicking, acrobatics, and weapons -- he was a savvy showman who knew how to give 'em exactly what they wanted. I wish he could be around now to see how well grappling is doing these days. I remember one time he kicked me really hard. I remember thinking it was a good thing he only wore a size 6 shoe instead of a 14 like me, otherwise that kick would have sent me to China! He was strong for his size, lemme tell ya.

he also trained grappling with Wally Jay.

 

[EviLore]

heh, that wouldn't prove anything to me other than that he either beat or loss to Takanori Gomi once

It's not the outcome of the fight; it's the content of the fight. Saying that Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira was the Pride FC heavyweight champion, and Fedor beat him doesn't tell you anything except that Nog lost to Fedor once. But watch all of Nog's previous matches, then watch this match knowing that Nogueira is one of the best brazilian jiujitsu fighters out there and a monster from his guard on the ground (as well as a very competent boxer). See Fedor *purposely* jump into Nog's guard, escape countless submission attempts as if Nog learned BJJ from a Vitor Belfort instructional tape (lawl!), and generate immense striking power while his movement is restricted by nog's scissors. See Fedor dodge strikes standing like he weighs 100 pounds less than he does, and see fedor move quickly and smoothly 15+ minutes into the match after issuing a ceaseless pummeling (cardio?).

Watching Bruce Lee fight Takanori Gomi, assuming it would last a little while, would tell me a *fuck* of a lot more than whether one guy beat the other once.

 

[NLB2]

Gene actually said "I can't put you down because when I do you're gonna kill me". he talks about it all of the time, and hates the rumor that he beat up bruce lee , because they were pals. It's just a rumor, just like the one that says Bruce Lee beat up Bolo on the set of Enter the Dragon. Actually:



http://www.genelebell.com/stories.asp#10brucelee

Furthermore




he also trained grappling with Wally Jay.

Ok, your point. (Notice use of period rather than question mark)

 

[karasu]

It's not the outcome of the fight; it's the content of the fight. Saying that Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira was the Pride FC heavyweight champion, and Fedor beat him doesn't tell you anything except that Nog lost to Fedor once. But watch all of Nog's previous matches, then watch this match knowing that Nogueira is one of the best brazilian jiujitsu fighters out there and a monster from his guard on the ground (as well as a very competent boxer). See Fedor *purposely* jump into Nog's guard, escape countless submission attempts as if Nog learned BJJ from a Vitor Belfort instructional tape (lawl!), and generate immense striking power while his movement is restricted by nog's scissors. See Fedor dodge strikes standing like he weighs 100 pounds less than he does, and see fedor move quickly and smoothly 15+ minutes into the match after issuing a ceaseless pummeling (cardio?).

Watching Bruce Lee fight Takanori Gomi, assuming it would last a little while, would tell me a *fuck* of a lot more than whether one guy beat the other once.

yeah, that's stellar. But it's just one fight, no matter how entertaining. It would show you what he can do, sure. I'm not denying that, but this shit didn't even exist in his day, so it's a moot point. The only "real fights" happened in the streets and in the dojos. It wasn't some huge corporate cash cow se up for all of the wolrd to see. In his day, and his enviroment, compettive Martial Arts tournaments consisted of point fighting, and later a rough form of full contact. That's all. He fought Challenge matches, that were obviously illegal, and sparred intensively. Whether you or I were witness to it is so besides the point.

 

[EviLore]

yeah, that's stellar. But it's just one fight, no matter how entertaining. It would show you what he can do, sure. I'm not denying that, but this shit didn't even exist in his day, so it's a moot point. The only "real fights" happened in the streets and in the dojos. It wasn't some huge corporate cash cow se up for all of the wolrd to see. In his day, and his enviroment, compettive Martial Arts tournaments consisted of point fighting, and later a rough form of full contact. That's all. He fought Challenge matches, that were obviously illegal, and sparred intensively. Whether you or I were witness to it is so besides the point.

Besides the point? The entirety of the arguments here consist of silly dream matches between Bruce Lee and current MMA fighters, or between current MMA fighters and random scrubs off the street. What would be a faster way to gauge Bruce's ability compared to Fedor or Gomi? A kata demo?

 

[karasu]

Besides the point? The entirety of the arguments here consist of silly dream matches between Bruce Lee and current MMA fighters, or between current MMA fighters and random scrubs off the street. What would be a faster way to gauge Bruce's ability compared to Fedor or Gomi? A kata demo?

pfft, the fastyer and better way to know who would win is a fight between the two of them, or a couple of fights between the two of them.

My point was never that fighter A was better than fighter B. My point was that any fighter is capable of beating another in real world scenarios. The most or least you can say about Bruce Lee is that you don't know what he's capable of because you've never seen him fight. All the more reason I say that it's silly to discredit him or treat him as a joke just because you dont know and haven't personally witnessed what he's capable of. ESPECIALLY in real world fights, where anything under the sun can happen. Dream matches aka pissing contests where people think they know who who would win a real fight for a "fact" based on a fight that takes place in their imagintion, are ridiculous.

 

[EviLore]

My point was that any fighter is capable of beating another in real world scenarios.

Capable != likely.

The most or least you can say about Bruce Lee is that you don't know what he's capable of because you've never seen him fight. All the more reason I say that it's silly to discredit him or treat him as a joke just because you dont know and haven't personally witnessed what he's capable of.

Saying that he'd almost definitely lose to a heavily crosstrained 230 lb. mixed martial arts champion is calling him a joke? Some things can be said a little more conclusively than others, when that sort of weight difference is involved and the fighter assumed to win isn't lacking in any major fighting attributes (since earlier you cited royce gracie and his overpowering of fighters that were clueless in the ground game).

ESPECIALLY in real world fights, where anything under the sun can happen. Dream matches aka pissing contests where people think they know who who would win a real fight for a "fact" based on a fight that takes place in their imagintion, are ridiculous

Since you're obviously overreacting to all of these comments while trying to retain neutrality, I could also say that your apparent assumptions on Bruce's fighting ability are in your imagination and ridiculous...but then, I don't dislike BL and wouldn't say that sort of thing without actually seeing him fight a few times. The most I can say is that he was physically strong P4P, people respected him, and he could be very fast on camera. That doesn't prove shit about his ability to beat a modern 1st class fighter several weight classes above him.

 

[karasu]

Capable != likely.



Saying that he'd almost definitely lose to a heavily crosstrained 230 lb. mixed martial arts champion is calling him a joke? Some things can be said a little more conclusively than others, when that sort of weight difference is involved and the fighter assumed to win isn't lacking in any major fighting attributes (since earlier you cited royce gracie and his overpowering of fighters that were clueless in the ground game).




Since you're obviously overreacting to all of these comments while trying to retain neutrality, I could also say that your apparent assumptions on Bruce's fighting ability are in your imagination and ridiculous...but then, I don't dislike BL and wouldn't say that sort of thing without actually seeing him fight a few times. The most I can say is that he was physically strong P4P, people respected him, and he could be very fast on camera. That doesn't prove shit about his ability to beat a modern 1st class fighter several weight classes above him.

Eh, I have no idea why you think i said it was likely that Bruce would beat the guy. I was talking about fighting in general, ANY fighter. I don't know why you're saying I'm overreacting either. I'm the only guy arguing my viewpoint against two or three other guys and I don't think I've insulted anyone. My posts are full of typos but that's because I'm typing in the dark while chatting with a couple of friends at the same time, it isn't because of anger. :/ I find the discussion a little annoying sure, but that isn't an overreaction. It's just that limiting fights to what you've personally seen or experienced on television in a movie OR a sport isn't very realistic. And whenever people insinuate that people have to fight in tournaments to prove themselves it bothers me. Because for one fighting in a tournament isn't about any fighter proving himself to you, it's sold to you as a form of entertainment. Not as something that proves a fighters worth in the ring, street, or otherwise. to be used as fuel in internet pissing matches about dead Martial Artist Vs fighter with a winning streak discussions. And secondly because anything these fighters are doing has existed in the MA community for decades, and hundreds, and thousands of years. The techniques have worked for a countless number of practictioners, regardless of whether the masses have had a ringside view or not. "Proving yourself" is walking away with your life, not necessarily winning a title. This new strand of commercialism is saying that if your style doesn't have a champion in this competition or that one, your style is worthless, and that's ugly as fuck.

The most I can say is that he was physically strong P4P, people respected him, and he could be very fast on camera. That doesn't prove shit about his ability to beat a modern 1st class fighter several weight classes above him.

[/quote]


And I'd say being a modern first class fighter doesn't prove shit about walking out of any other fight alive. Every fight, professional or street, is an individual phenomenon with it's own set of circumstances, stipulations, close calls, and anything else you can think of. If you don't see it that way and start underestimating opponents just because they haven't fought in the same arena you have, you're fucked. I don't care if you're talking about Bruce Lee, Kazushii Sakuraba, Mighty Mo, Ernesto Hoost, Cro Cop, you, your instructor, Wong Fei Hung, or a shit for technique competitor like Bob Sapp.

 

[Shouta]

Shouta claims in #ga that '70s Bruce Lee would take out Fedor in a bar room brawl

Err, I didn't say that. I said Bruce Lee would fair better in an actual combat situation that isn't 1v1 (given that some of the claims about him are true) whereas Fedor would probably do better 1v1. Then again, I probably should specify what I meant by bar room brawl heh.

 

[EviLore]

Don't worry Shouta, I was just using you as bait to start this up ;b

 

[Shouta]

Hah, didn't expect me to jump in eh =P?

 

[NLB2]

Err, I didn't say that. I said Bruce Lee would fair better in an actual combat situation that isn't 1v1 (given that some of the claims about him are true) whereas Fedor would probably do better 1v1. Then again, I probably should specify what I meant by bar room brawl heh.

DUDE, FEDOR'S SO MUCH BETTER THAN BRUCE LEE HE CONCIEVED BRUCE LEE BY RAPING BRUCE LEE'S MOM!
(Was that in bad taste? I'll edit if it was.)

 

[EviLore]

Eh, I have no idea why you think i said it was likely that Bruce would beat the guy. I was talking about fighting in general, ANY fighter. I don't know why you're saying I'm overreacting either. I'm the only guy arguing my viewpoint against two or three other guys and I don't think I've insulted anyone. My posts are full of typos but that's because I'm typing in the dark while chatting with a couple of friends at the same time, it isn't because of anger. :/ I find the discussion a little annoying sure, but that isn't an overreaction. It's just that limiting fights to what you've personally seen or experienced on television in a movie OR a sport isn't very realistic. And whenever people insinuate that people have to fight in tournaments to prove themselves it bothers me. Because for one fighting in a tournament isn't about any fighter proving himself to you, it's sold to you as a form of entertainment. Not as something that proves a fighters worth in the ring, street, or otherwise. to be used as fuel in internet pissing matches about dead Martial Artist Vs fighter with a winning streak discussions. And secondly because anything these fighters are doing has existed in the MA community for decades, and hundreds, and thousands of years.

The techniques have worked for a countless number of practictioners, regardless of whether the masses have had a ringside view or not. "Proving yourself" is walking away with your life, not necessarily winning a title. This new strand of commercialism is saying that if your style doesn't have a champion in this competition or that one, your style is worthless, and that's ugly as fuck.

You're upholding the spirit of real martial arts, and the pansies fighting in MMA tournaments are just entertainers...hell, they may as well join the WWE! I understand completely now.

And I'd say being a modern first class fighter doesn't prove shit about walking out of any other fight alive.

Well, that's that then. Any other fight? I don't think I need to comment past this sentence. Most people you come across are terrible fighters. It's really pretty ignorant to think that reasonable probabilities wouldn't exist if Fedor fought anyone here.

 

[karasu]

You're upholding the spirit of real martial arts, and the pansies fighting in MMA tournaments are just entertainers...hell, they may as well join the WWE! I understand completely now.

GOD! This is my biggest problem with this community. I don't know how many times in how many martial arts threads here I've mentioned that I used to compete and hope to compete again if my injury proves itself healed well enough. I train in traditional martial arts, but I am not a traditional martial artist. Not physically, It's just that I grew up fighting in the projects, and I've fought in the ring, I know first hand how different they are. I've been stabbed (to mention it yet again) and shot at , so I know how unpredictable real fights can be . It isn't a matter of elitism dude, it's just the way it is. NOWHERE did I say Fedor or anyone else was a pansie. god, why cant we just talk about what I actually said instead of jumping to emotion based extremes? I said in an earlier post that he was more than likely more than capable of handling himself. And in another I said that the competition isn't what made him a good fighter, the gym is. I'm pretty confident that I watch and participate in as much MA and MA competition as you do. So it isn't like I have anything against the scene. If I do have a problem it's with a number of the fans.

Well, that's that then. Any other fight? I don't think I need to comment past this sentence. Most people you come across are terrible fighters. It's really pretty ignorant to think that reasonable probabilities don't exist under these circumstances.

Yes, you see. If I'm a fighter, and I easily beat someone who beat Sakuraba, it does not mean that I will beat Sakuraba. Winning one fight doesn't guarantee victory in another. Being a champion in one arena doesn't mean you're invincible in another. being an undefeated prize fighter doesn't mean you'll be an undefeated street fighter, or even undefeated in sparring matches. It's pure logic, not elitism. Do you train? Have you EVER fought in your life? That's not meant to be insulting, but you're jumping to some far fetched conclusions. Whether most fighters suck or not depends on what neighborhood you grow up in and what tricks the fighters in that neighborhood use. Fighting is a pretty raw thing, not everyone has great technique or flashy kicks/flashy submissions, but a good measure of them have enough spark and wickedness to knock you out or worse.

 

[NLB2]

We all know there's only one way to settle this dispute. Karasu - 220. Evilore +180. Any takers?

 

[Minotauro]

Jesus, this thread really went to hell.

Oh, and for the record, Fedor would destroy any non-cybernetic humanoid.

 

[karasu]

-220? wtf? I'll beat every man in this room in sixty seconds!

 

[NLB2]

-220? wtf? I'll beat every man in this room in sixty seconds!

:lol :lol :lol
Either you be jokin', or you be a hypocrite.

 

[Boogie]

:lol :lol :lol
Either you be jokin', or you be a hypocrite.

karasu -800
EviLore +500

Boogie -500
Iranian policewoman +380

Josh Koschek's ground and pound +110
Watching Paint Dry +110

 

[NLB2]

karasu -800
EviLore +500

Boogie -500
Iranian policewoman +380

Fine with me. Let's do this thing.
karasu, here's your chance to start fighting again. And if you're gonna talk smack you'd better back it up. EviLore, you'll get paid, even if you lose.

So let's get to logistics (we'll save numbers for last) - where do you guys live?

 

[Boogie]

Fine with me. Let's do this thing.
karasu, here's your chance to start fighting again. And if you're gonna talk smack you'd better back it up. EviLore, you'll get paid, even if you lose.

So let's get to logistics (we'll save numbers for last) - where do you guys live?

Dude, sometimes I wonder about you.

 

[NLB2]

Dude, sometimes I wonder about you.

Don't worry, I can get the finances clear. It won't be legal, but the money'll be there. Let's do it! Oh yeah, I'm not talking about you vs policewoman.

 

[karasu]

:lol :lol :lol
Either you be jokin', or you be a hypocrite.

was a joke/line from Dragon.

 

[dolph]

Stay on target...

So about Ultimate Fighter. I thought it was a good fight, certainly not the most exciting, they were each hesitant towards the others strengths. It's sweet they are having the finals live on Spike, should be pretty exciting.

I now have heard the most annoying thing in TV, that damn guy outside the ring cheering on Diego... "Go Diego... Take him down Diego... Keep moving Diego... Get up Diego... Elbow the ribs Diego, elbow the ribs Diego!"
Ahhhhhhh!! He needed to be forcibly removed from the area.

 

[dem]

Thank god Josh Koscheck is gone. Does that guy have ANY moves once he gets you to the ground?
Diego is going to destroy Kenny Florian.


I'm eagerly anticipating Sam getting his ass kicked.

 

[Asbel]

That was a very good fight imo. I really enjoy competitive fights. Despite Josh being one dimensional, if Diego didn't respect his ground game and defend accordingly, he could have lost the decision.

I agree that Flo is the underdog. Although Flo is the BJJ blackbelt, he is up against Diego's strength, gnp and subs. With that said, I'm going with Flo by sub. Heh.

p.s. I don't care to promote real fights since they spread violence and hate more than anything and usually don't even prove who is the better man, athlete or fighter. Like Karasu points out, anything can be used in a real fight. IMO, a full contact and controlled environment sport like mma is actually a more realistic indicator of the better trained man. And that's why I also like weight classes.

 

[NLB2]

was a joke/line from Dragon.

OK, anyway. Where do you live? We need to get this fight on!

 

[SyNapSe]

nvm Can't say I'm sad to see him gone, he was so arrogant and annoying.

 

[Biff Hardbody]

This thread reminds me of my argument with Karasu about Muhammad Ali.

Anyhow, I just breezed through it. Errr, lets see here. I don't think that fantasy matchups are ridculous or anything like that. I actually quite enjoy them, because they help me understand the fighters and martial arts better if they are well thought out. No offence or anger towards you, Karasu, but I don't think you need to crusade and tell everyone that such things are rediculous. Hear me out here, I remember when I tried to talk you into comparing Ali's careers with men you listed as greater or on par with his, and you wouldn't do it and started with words like "crap" and insinuating I was emotionally attatched to Ali. Honestly, my intention was never to argue with you or prove Ali was the best because I wanted to prove I'm right, I was looking to talk boxing.

I don't mean to come in here blind siding you, thats not my intention. Its just that when you make some of the statements you do, it gets a certain reaction from people. Allot of what you say is open for debate. I'm not saying you are wrong in your views. Its just that there is so much misinformation regarding martial arts and people are still forming an idea of what works and what doesn't. So, its a sensative subject when people who are passionate about fighting get to talking. My point is, lets all remember that when talking, because there is good talk here regarding martial arts generally.

Anyhow, I look at Bruce Lee as a tremendously inspirational figure. He's one of the reasons I wanted to study martial arts. Time goes on, you grow up. I still think of him as inspirational, but I don't really equate him with greatest martial artists of all time.

I think when viewing martial arts, its important to have a grounded reality more then anything. If you look at the reality of Lee, you see he didn't really fight much, so its hard to gauge his worth as a fighter. There's allot of conflicting reports. Personally, I've met people who've told me stories about Lee and he's sounded very human. He's still a great inspiration.

At the same time, keep an open mind. Jimmy Wylde normally weighed 100 lbs, yet he routinely KOed men who were 170 lbs and more, they said Marciano would get killed as a heavyweight, and old 5/6 Sam Langford was winning against heavyweights when he was blind. There is a type of greatness out there that sometimes goes against what we normally see.

About the fight, boy was I wrong. Josh took a heck of a beating and held his own with Diego. I thought he looked wrecked at the end though, he looked bad mentally as well as physically to me. Forrest continues to be my favorite because he reactions mirror my own, when Josh landed that punch as they were getting up you heard "what the fuck!?" from the crowd. Exactly what I thought, but that's allowed. Still, I wouldn't be touching fists afterwards if he did that shit. Diego got off lucky there, he definitely could have been KOed. I'm surprised he wasn't angrier afterwards.

 

[karasu]

I think the deal is that people are so used to speaking in these absolute terms that they don't imagine anyone will speak using anything else that isn't tainted with some form of bias or another. I'm not some poot butt forum martial artist arguing my favorite fighter/style can beat your favorite fighter/style. I've had these same discussions elsewhere without being painted as a "MMA hater" or a "Muhammad Ali" hater. There's no basis for either since it's pretty clear that my opinions are more down the middle than that. For example, I said ANY fighter can lose, not "MMA fighters can lose but everyone else wins". I'm not on any type of crusade, I just share an oppossing opinion to actually have a discussion about a thing instead of a circle jerk. Everybody was having a little party , celebrating Fedor's invincibility, and I see things differently so I spoke on it. I would have done the same if it was about Bruce Lee being assured of beating a guy because was so fast and full of strength. The "Any thing can happen ina fight" is something Bruce preached most passionately, so I felt it was more than fitting to discuss it here. Even the Ali thing, somehow saying that I didn't believe there was a clearly defined greatest of all time and that there were many great fighters who accomplished things that were great as well, apparently meant I had a problem with Ali. But I don't. :/ My argument was never so much about Ali, as it was the idea that their's a greatest of all time who would wipe the floor with everyone else just because they've defeated such and such and such. I would have said the same thing if you said Joe Louis (My in ring hero) was the greatest of all time and asked for thoughts on it.

I look at Bruce Lee as a martial arts teacher, who's thoughts opened up the minds of Martial Artists considerably. His blend of eastern and western disciplines went far and beyond what had been done before. I don't think of him as the greatest martial artist to ever live or any such tripe, nor do I believe in such a thing. Nothing I said has anything to do with that idea.